The Phillies should be happy about this; last year they won the division because Reyes celebrated too much.

OK, I've never thought this before, but this time I'm SURE Repoz is baiting us. ;-)

Manuel didn't deny that several of his players are guilty of over-the-top celebration when they have success. Ryan Howard often admires his titanic home runs before he leaves the batter's box, and lefty reliever J.C. Romero frequently windmills his arm after recording a pivotal late-game strikeout.

To which I say, "So STFU about Reyes." And because of which I say to the media, "So STFU about Reyes until and unless you are going to rip on the other players on other teams who do nothing less or less objectionable than he does." As I said on the thread last night, I'm sick of Reyes being this whipping boy for announcers who have decided to ignore his outstanding season, and instead harp on his perceived character flaws. What a bunch of crap.

The Phillies don't like Jose Reyes? I wonder how they like their own damn shortstop -- who by the way isn't half the player Jose Reyes is -- now showing up for a big game on time. Maybe they could have a little "celebration" of their own in which Jimmy Rollins is given a watch so he can be on time for their next game.

Sam, did you happen to read my response to you last night? Click here and scroll to comment #43.

I have a feeling Reyes is playing too well to get run out of town, but by god, the Media is going to try!

Golly! He raised his finger in the air! Tell him not to do that anymore, Mommy!

Great post, Sam.

I have no problem with this, they lost and they think that sucks. Someone celebrating a big play usually does indeed make you feel even worse, especially when it's turned the tide of the game.

The best way to stop that is not to hit them in the necks with fastballs, or going into second with your spikes up. It's by winning, and not letting the other team beat you.

That said, when I see that in a softball game I usually break out some over the top celebrations, much to the amusement of teammates. So I'm not one to offer advice, I guess.

there's no question that Reyes' celebrations are excessive, immature, and unsportsmanlike. Phillies radio color broadcaster and former pitcher Larry Andersen said Reyes should have been hit in the neck in his next at-bat. While I think that's a bit too high, I don't disagree with the sentiment.

Says you, Crashburn. The other night, he hit a HUGE home run in a pivotal game. His celebration (the gist of which can be seen here consisted of his raising his index finger in the air for part of the way while he rounded the bases. THAT, apparently, is what prompted that ass-clown Larry Andersen to suggest Reyes's head be separated from his torso.

Give me a break. "Excessive, immaturre, and unsportsmanlike"? Talk about a need to get a grip. I think a player living in the excitement of a big moment in a big game shows they aren't machines. Imagine that! What exactly was so brash or wrong with what he did there? If people aren't looking at everything Reyes does within the preset mentality of what they have already concluded about him, nobody says word one about the way he rounded the bases Wednesday night -- because it wasn't problematic in the least. It's a load of crap, and the next word out of Larry Andersen's mouth should have been an apology to Jose Reyes. Because if Jimmy Rollins had hit the exact same home run, to break a 3-3 time and put the Phillies up 6-3 in the same situation, and run the bases with his finger raised rounding second, then low-fived the third base coach, Larry Andersen would have extolled Mr. MVP, super-clutch Rollins as the guy you want with you in the foxhole and probably gone out of his way to point out that he v. punk Reyes is the big difference between the tough, character Phillies and the choking-dog Mets. But I won't hold my breath for him to admit it. You should, though.

Crashburn, you said in that post that his celebrations don't bother you though. So why does it matter if they are immature, arrogant, etc.? There's clearly a pretty strong Mets-Phillies rivalry at the moment. Reyes got excited, just as Victorino got excited Tuesday night. If those things piss off the opposing player, who cares (people seem to blame Reyes' behavior for igniting the Marlins at the end of last season, but that would only give Mets fans a reasons to be bothered by it)? I don't really care if Jose Reyes is concerned about the Phillies' feelings, nor do I care if Victorino is concerned about the Mets. I like seeing the animosity between the teams grow.

You should, though.

Nice, that made me laugh.

Wright's huge fist pump when he scored the last run warmed my heart.

Crashburn, you said in that post that his celebrations don't bother you though.

They don't bother him

until an opposing team celebrates after beating HIS team

typical fanboy double standard

Wright's huge fist pump when he scored the last run warmed my heart.

Yeah, I thought it was curious that Wright's celebration was a footnote and Reyes' the main event.

According to the logic used by Charlie Manuel and some of the media folks here, Joe Carter jumping up and down like a schoolboy after winning the '93 World Series was also unsportsmanlike. Ditto, Kirk Gibson fist pumping while he hobbles around the basepaths was an affront to the dignity of the game. Reyes's homerun was not, of course, as monumental as either of those, but it was a big moment that wound up deciding the game. He can't celebrate a little?

It seems to me that, at this point, Reyes simply has a reputation as a showboat (whether deserved or not is another question, though I lean strongly towards not), and everything he does is viewed through that lens. Take another player, have him celebrate while rounding the bases, and gosh, isn't it swell when our ballplayers demonstrate their childlike love for the game? But when Reyes does it, he's just hotdogging around. What a dick, huh?

A Yankees fan, going up to Fenway to see a game this weekend, called Francesa yesterday to ask, in reference to Jose's celebration, 'do you think Reyes has psychological problems?'. To his credit, Mike handled the insanity well, but that call blew my mind.

I notice no one is mentioning Shane Victorino's Statue Of Liberty routine when he scored the tying run on Tuesday night, or Rudy Seanez's hornpipe when Utley made that diving grab to end the 7th in the same game.

The other night, he hit a HUGE home run in a pivotal game.

This is subjective. I don't think July games can be "pivotal."

I think a player living in the excitement of a big moment in a big game shows they aren't machines. Imagine that!

As mentioned, I don't really care about the celebrations. However, I don't think there's any argument against Reyes' antics being as I described them, "Excessive, immature, and unsportsmanlike." You can understand the Phillies' ire and I'd say the same thing if it was Royals-Pirates, Red Sox-Yankees, or Phillies-Mets.

If people aren't looking at everything Reyes does within the preset mentality of what they have already concluded about him

I think you're imagining this. Can you provide any substantive proof that the media has had an anti-Reyes bias for the majority of his career?

It's a load of crap, and the next word out of Larry Andersen's mouth should have been an apology to Jose Reyes.

I'm sure Reyes doesn't care what Andersen thinks, and Andersen echoes the sentiment of a large segment of old school baseball fans (of which I don't consider myself a part).

Because if Jimmy Rollins had hit the exact same home run, to break a 3-3 time and put the Phillies up 6-3 in the same situation, and run the bases with his finger raised rounding second, then low-fived the third base coach, Larry Andersen would have extolled Mr. MVP, super-clutch Rollins as the guy you want with you in the foxhole and probably gone out of his way to point out that he v. punk Reyes is the big difference between the tough, character Phillies and the choking-dog Mets.

There's no way you can prove this; it's essentially a strawman argument. I don't listen to Andersen much (in fact, I don't listen to him at all), so I can't tell you if he would or wouldn't. Either way, there's been no proof of a media-wide anti-Reyes bias.

If we're discussing the merits of Rollins' and Reyes' character, let's gather the facts.

- Rollins made a controversial pre-season claim in 2007 that the Phillies were "the team to beat," then let his production do the talking as he won the NL MVP and led the Phillies to their first playoff berth since 1993. Rollins had an OPS of .875 in September, while Reyes had a .612 OPS.

- When Rollins does err, he's taken his punishment professionally and has never played the role of the victim. He talks to the media at full length with his chin up. Reyes retreated into his shell when he received criticism.

- While Rollins is flashy, he doesn't have an air of pretentiousness about him that Reyes does.

- Reyes is the star player on a team that authored Major League Baseball's most epic collapse in history; Rollins is the star player on the team that was the beneficiary of that collapse. Whether this is fair or not, Reyes has lost points and Rollins has gained points because of this.

So why does it matter if they are immature, arrogant, etc.?

It really doesn't matter, but there's a huge discussion about it, and all things said, Reyes' antics were immature, arrogant, and unprofessional. I'd say the same thing if it had been Rollins doing the excessive celebrating.

Reyes got excited, just as Victorino got excited Tuesday night.

Victorino's "excitement" was sarcastic; he was returning the favor, so to speak. He's definitely a high-energy guy like Rollins and Reyes but he was glaring into the Mets' dugout as a response to some of the antics they've pulled over the last season and a half. It was immature, no question, but not a real celebration.

They don't bother him

until an opposing team celebrates after beating HIS team

typical fanboy double standard

Reyes' antics don't bother me, I'm simply justifying the ire others have towards him. I understand the sentiment even if I don't share it.

Reyes's homerun was not, of course, as monumental as either of those, but it was a big moment that wound up deciding the game. He can't celebrate a little?

Listen, I don't really want to discuss this any further because as far as I'm concerned, it's a non-story. I'm just trying to get a few people to understand the other perspective.

He can celebrate, he just doesn't have to be pretentious about it. Reyes' raised index finger was a metaphor for another finger on his hand, and it was directed at the Phillies' dugout. There's a difference between celebrating your accomplishment and rubbing it in your opponents' face.

Let's say, for instance, you and I are playing each other in Halo. I end up winning a close game. Consider these two reactions:

- I jump out of my chair and scream "Yes!" with my body directed at the TV or a group of observers.
- I jump out of my chair and scream "Yes!" with my body directed right at you.

The physical difference is subtle but the difference in your interpretations of my actions is huge.

I notice no one is mentioning Shane Victorino's Statue Of Liberty routine when he scored the tying run on Tuesday night

As mentioned, that was retaliation, so to speak. Kind of like when they imitated Terrell Owens' dance.

I'm pretty much done this argument for now. It's silly and not even a real controversy. I just think some of the Mets fans here are putting on the blinders when it comes to Reyes actually deserving the criticism about his celebration. As mentioned, if it was Rollins doing that celebration, I'd be just as critical of him.

And for those of you discrediting what I am saying simply because I'm a Phillies fan, remember that I petitioned openly and frequently about David Wright being more deserving than Rollins for the NL MVP last season.

The best example of the NY media bias against Reyes is this: When the Mets were struggling earlier this season, there was plenty of talking heads saying that the Mets should trade Reyes. Their reasoning was not to improve the team, mind you, but just to "shake things up."

The best example of the NY media bias against Reyes is this: When the Mets were struggling earlier this season, there was plenty of talking heads saying that the Mets should trade Reyes. Their reasoning was not to improve the team, mind you, but just to "shake things up."

I think that's an example of media stupidity, not an anti-Reyes bias. The Philly media has talked about cutting or trading Ryan Howard throughout this season even though he's turned his season around. There's no anti-Howard bias in the media.

Crashburn, the problem with the "other perspective," is that it's completely irrational unless you start off with a pro-Phillies or anti-Mets/Reyes bias. I rarely make statements here in such a sharp way, but I think it's appropriate here.

You've always been very friendly when I've seen you in threads, and you seem intelligent, but you are very much a Phillies fan/apologist. It clouds your judgment on all things Philly. Fandom-related bias at this site is certainly not exclusive to you, and most Mets fans here are guilty of it from time to time as well. But, in this instance, you really are defending an irrational opinion.

This is subjective. I don't think July games can be "pivotal."

Well, the whole damn discussion (including especially the perception of the conduct itself) is subjective. But after the way the Mets lost on Tuesday, IMHO Wednesday's game was pivotal for them. No requirement that anybody agree with me, of course.

However, I don't think there's any argument against Reyes' antics being as I described them, "Excessive, immature, and unsportsmanlike." You can understand the Phillies' ire and I'd say the same thing if it was Royals-Pirates, Red Sox-Yankees, or Phillies-Mets.

I think there's totally an argument. First of all, the whole thing is subjective to begin with. Second, I've seen Reyes do intricate post-home run dances (last season, with Milledge) outside the dugout. I know what "excessive, immature, and unsportsmanlike" looks like -- and Wednesday night wasn't it. Wednesday night, he raised his finger (NOT pointing at the Phillie dugout, by the way, but pointing up to the sky, in a # 1 gesture) while running part of the way around the bases. It was excitement in the moment. You, apparently, don't think it was such a big moment. Importance being (after all) subjective, I tend to think it was pretty damned exciting, and important.

And as for the Phillies' ire, I go back to the point with which I began: since Manuel concedes that members of his own team are guilty of some of the same behavior, they have no standing to complain. Their ire is actually hypocritical bull.

Victorino's "excitement" was sarcastic; he was returning the favor, so to speak. He's definitely a high-energy guy like Rollins and Reyes but he was glaring into the Mets' dugout as a response to some of the antics they've pulled over the last season and a half. It was immature, no question, but not a real celebration.

That's a joke, right? Have you watched the video? The guy was excited. He was in the moment of a huge, improbable comeback in a game for first place. He wasn't methodically thinking about payback. He was pumped. To which I say, good for him. But to which I also say, screw the media for its double standard of not calling HIM out for doing something no more or less objectionable than Jose Reyes did the next night. To me, it wasn't objectionable at all. But then, neither was what Reyes did. I'm consistent.

I'm not putting on any blinders. The fact is that Jose Reyes HAS toned it down. He isn't doing the dances in or in front of the dugout anymore. But the media has its narrative, and they aren't going to let the facts get in the way of their story. It's a shame that they won't see a guy who plays with flair, energy, enthusiasm, and fun -- and just let him be.

who by the way isn't half the player Jose Reyes is

Heh. If Sam is saying stuff this silly, the rivalry must be getting good.

I agree though that everybody should STFU about Reyes.

Andersen echoes the sentiment of a large segment of old school baseball fans

Bullsh*t.

He echoes the sentiments akin to those pretend hard*sses at the VFW hall who want to send kids to every godd*mn, godforsaken, snake pit and when you ask THEM what THEY did they were a f*cking cook.

Is posing and preening necessary? No. But this wasn't that. He was excited. And heaven forbid anyone get EXCITED. Let's all make it like f*cking tennis and golf where everyone has to sit on their godd*mned hands while folks in prissy outfits fuss and fume on their own without outside comment.

Please. Larry can talk tough somewhere else. I guaranf*ckingtee that when Barry took him deep (twice) he didn't do sh*t. No hits batsmen. No pitch under the chin.

This is along the same lines of the Cards announcers getting into a kerfuffle because Ryan Braun enjoyed his game-winning home run last night. And that CC pulls out his shirt tail after the game is completed.

Good gravy.....

I've said before, I'll say it again: I could listen to Sam for hours...

I'm pretty much done this argument for now. It's silly and not even a real controversy. I just think some of the Mets fans here are putting on the blinders when it comes to Reyes actually deserving the criticism about his celebration. As mentioned, if it was Rollins doing that celebration, I'd be just as critical of him.

Don't believe that for one second, you wouldn't be just as critical, to the conrtrary you would be too busy explaining or rationalizing Rollins' behavior, while some Met Fan would be writing the same posts WRT to Rollins that you are writing now WRT Reyes.

and most Mets fans here are guilty of it from time to time as well.

:-)

Actually what I like about Crash is that while he's a Phillies' Phan- he's clearly more a Mets Fan type than a Phillies Phan type

you are very much a Phillies fan/apologist. It clouds your judgment on all things Philly.

You obviously don't know me very well, and that's to be expected, of course. Last year, I campaigned very fervently for David Wright over Jimmy Rollins as the NL MVP. In the other thread about Delgado's game-winning hit, I said that I think Rollins is one of the most overrated players in baseball.

I think I'm very objective when it comes to the Phillies. The fact that I happen to be a Phillies fan defending a Phillie and criticizing a Met should not be reason to throw out everything I've said.

Well, the whole damn discussion (including especially the perception of the conduct itself) is subjective.

Fair point.

since Manuel concedes that members of his own team are guilty of some of the same behavior, they have no standing to complain. Their ire is actually hypocritical bull.

I agree with this. I'm defending everyone else who is criticizing Reyes; I think Reyes deserves the criticism.

Have you watched the video?

Yeah, as I mentioned, he's definitely a high-energy guy, but he's very sarcastic. He celebrates just like anyone else, but he's usually not as "douchey" so to speak, about it. Regardless, Victorino's celebration was immature as well and should be held to criticism. I'm not saying he should be exempt.

screw the media for its double standard of not calling HIM out for doing something no more or less objectionable than Jose Reyes did the next night.

If there's one thing the media is very consistent about, it's double-standards. I've learned to just let it go; I don't pay attention to what the mainstream media thinks. They think Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens were bad baseball players because they used a couple of substances that a lot of other players were using in a time when the rules against those substances were ambiguous, and at a time when the media themselves was helping to cover it up.

Don't believe that for one second, you wouldn't be just as critical, to the conrtrary you would be too busy explaining or rationalizing Rollins' behavior, while some Met Fan would be writing the same posts WRT to Rollins that you are writing now WRT Reyes.

These arguments don't fly with me. Ad hominem all you want, but I am probably one of the most objective Phillies fans you will ever come across. And I say that with every ounce of pride I have.

there's no question that Reyes' celebrations are excessive, immature, and unsportsmanlike. Phillies radio color broadcaster and former pitcher Larry Andersen said Reyes should have been hit in the neck in his next at-bat. While I think that's a bit too high, I don't disagree with the sentiment.

So you won't disagree with sentiments where Howard, Romero, Victorino, are also hit in the neck?

And in reference to Harveys, even in tennis, when a player celebrates after winning a point, fist pumping etc, his / her opponent doesn't go whining to the media.

So you won't disagree with sentiments where Howard, Romero, Victorino, are also hit in the neck?

No. Not physically of course (and I don't want Reyes actually hit in the neck, either, believe it or not).

his / her opponent doesn't go whining to the media.

This seems to be a storyline throughout baseball this year. There have been a couple incidents, I remember the Athletics were angry with K-Rod celebrating a save, and some other team was angry with Joba Chamberlain's antics.

I don't have a problem with any celebration that is spontaneous or seems to be the result of genuine exuberance. Not Reyes. Not even Lastings Milledge.

This is along the same lines of the Cards announcers getting into a kerfuffle because Ryan Braun enjoyed his game-winning home run last night. And that CC pulls out his shirt tail after the game is completed.

They really complained about the CC thing? Didn't that stuff start with Cameron honoring his dad (or something similar)?

by the way isn't half the player Jose Reyes is

Heh. If Sam is saying stuff this silly, the rivalry must be getting good.

Both Reyes and Rollins had their first full seasons at the age of 22. To begin with, let's go year by year, shall we?

22: Reyes -- OPS+ 81, WARP3 -- 4.6; Rollins OPS+ 92, WARP3 -- 5.3
23: Reyes -- OPS+ 115, WARP3 -- 7.5; Rollins OPS+ 85, WARP3 -- 5.8
24: Reyes -- OPS+ 103, WARP3 -- 10.2; Rollins OPS+ 90, WARP3 -- 5.8
25: Reyes -- OPS+ 125, WARP3 -- 9.0; Rollins OPS+ 102, WARP3 -- 5.7

So Reyes quickly became a stronger contributor to building a contending Mets' team, at an age when Rollins was still hurting the Phillies. Looked at through that prism, it should become obvious that Reyes is on track to have the far, far more valuable career than Rollins. Indeed . . . twice the player.

Now, as far as who is currently the better player. Take those same Reyes seasons (2005-2008), and match them up not with the age-equivalent Rollins seasons (2001-2004), but with the same calendar years.

2005: Reyes -- OPS+ 81, WARP3 -- 4.6; Rollins OPS+ 97; WARP3 -- 6.4
2006: Reyes -- OPS+ 115, WARP3 -- 7.5; Rollins OPS+ 101; WARP3 -- 8.2
2007: Reyes -- OPS+ 103, WARP3 -- 10.2; Rollins OPS+ 113; WARP3 -- 11.3
2008: Reyes -- OPS+ 125, WARP3 -- 9.0; Rollins OPS+ 96; WARP3 -- 4.6

Obviously, Reyes is not literally twice the player Rollins is -- although WARP3 sees him as having roughly twice the season Rollins is having (sorry . . . couldn't resist). In 2006, if B-Pro used any sort of a decent fielding metric instead of FRAA (which trashed Reyes and killed his WARP, even though every BIP fielding metric showed him having an outstanding year), it would have been clear that Reyes was superior that year, just as he's been this season.

Look, Rollins is obviously a good player. He's also -- to me, obviously -- the worst shortstop on any of the three contenders in the NL East. If the media didn't give him so much credit that should actually go to the likes of Utley and Burrell and Hamels for the Phillies' success, and if they didn't trash his Mets' counterpart, I'd let it go. And if they just judged both of them (and Hanley, for that matter) on their performance and not on these subjective judgments of their supposed character merits and flaws, I'd be totally happy. Because when the smoke clears, I think it'll be pretty obvious that the Mets are getting plenty of net positive value from the SS position in this pennant race.

but I am probably one of the most objective Phillies fans you will ever come across.

You are... Not that this thread is showing that side of you.

2005: Reyes -- OPS+ 81, WARP3 -- 4.6; Rollins OPS+ 97; WARP3 -- 6.4
2006: Reyes -- OPS+ 115, WARP3 -- 7.5; Rollins OPS+ 101; WARP3 -- 8.2
2007: Reyes -- OPS+ 103, WARP3 -- 10.2; Rollins OPS+ 113; WARP3 -- 11.3

Reyes will likely have a better career than Rollins overall, and although I like both of them, I thought Pujols or Wright was 2007 MVP (although writers voting for guy whose team collapsed will happen at the same time I buy the ARod/Madonna sex tape).

But right now, I think they are pretty even.

You are... Not that this thread is showing that side of you.

How can it? I'm a Phillies fan criticizing a Met. Everyone just assumes that I'm criticizing Reyes because he's on the rival team, not because I actually believe he deserves the criticism regardless of what uniform he's wearing.

Sam, your methodology in comparing the players is flawed. Comparing them by same-age years doesn't show much. Rollins developed slower than Reyes, and that should be expected -- Rollins doesn't have nearly the same skill set Reyes has. However, over time, Rollins has become just as capable a shortstop as Reyes, and as I showed you previously, Reyes is only worth about a half win more on average per season.

As for fielding...

2004: Rollins .841 RZR; Reyes .833
2005: Rollins .784; Reyes .801
2006: Rollins .828; Reyes .858
2007: Rollins .808; Reyes .871
2008: Rollins .834; Reyes .807

Reyes is a better fielder, but it's not by much, which is in agreement with WARP-3 (which is offense and defense).

Look, Rollins is obviously a good player. He's also -- to me, obviously -- the worst shortstop on any of the three contenders in the NL East.

I might even take Yunel Escobar over him as well.

I might even take Yunel Escobar over him as well.

now you are going to far, Escobar is a nobody, he had a fluke first 400 or so at bats, that's all.


Personally I thought, that even with the missing time, Utley should have been MVP.

And in reference to Harveys, even in tennis, when a player celebrates after winning a point, fist pumping etc, his / her opponent doesn't go whining to the media.

AMEN!

I think the ones who need to grow up are the ones saying Reyes needs to grow up.

I've said before, I'll say it again: I could listen to Sam for hours...

Take the LSATs first.

Sam, your methodology in comparing the players is flawed. Comparing them by same-age years doesn't show much. Rollins developed slower than Reyes, and that should be expected -- Rollins doesn't have nearly the same skill set Reyes has. However, over time, Rollins has become just as capable a shortstop as Reyes . . . .

I don't think that's right, Crashburn. I think you are assuming that Reyes has peaked at the age of 25, with no real basis for that assumption. Right now, Reyes is on track to have the best season of his career (knock on wood, since obviously I recognize that he tanked the last six weeks last year when he was similarly on track to have the best year . . . .). The most reasonable way to look at it is that he will continue to develop as a player, peaking about the same point in his career that Rollins has in HIS . . . but at a higher peak, since his development path has been on a higher curve all along. In other words, the fact that Reyes is a somewhat better player in his early 20s than Rollins is at his peak strongly suggests (though it doesn't, of course, guarantee) that Reyes will be a substanially better player at his peak than Rollins is now.

I completely agree with that, but you were trying to say that Reyes is a better player now when they're very, very similar. There's no doubt in my mind that Rollins will fade soon, and quickly at that. I'd prefer the Phillies trade him right about when Jason Donald is ready for MLB action (which may be sooner than we think). Of course, that all hinges on Donald not being traded...

2005: Reyes -- OPS+ 81, WARP3 -- 4.6; Rollins OPS+ 97; WARP3 -- 6.4
2006: Reyes -- OPS+ 115, WARP3 -- 7.5; Rollins OPS+ 101; WARP3 -- 8.2
2007: Reyes -- OPS+ 103, WARP3 -- 10.2; Rollins OPS+ 113; WARP3 -- 11.3

But right now, I think they are pretty even.

Any particular reason you left off the current season, Robinred? Reyes is (thus far) way ahead of Rollins, which has to be at least somewhat relevant to who is the better player "right now."

I completely agree with that, but you were trying to say that Reyes is a better player now when they're very, very similar.

Well, I guess "very, very similar" is one way to look at it. I am a glass-half-full kind of guy -- or at least I try to be -- so I like to think that what we've seen in the first 100 or so games of 2008 is the turning point. Reyes has been the much better player this year to date, and it may just be that in hindsight we'll look back on this year as the one where Reyes moves decisively ahead of Rollins, so much so that we kind of wonder why anyone ever thought it was close.

Granted, this particular worm could easily turn just as fast back the other way . . . which is why this whole game in general and the rivalry between these teams in particular is actually a very interesting one. Both teams have compelling characters, with personalities and stories that are very much building career arcs that I, at least, find fascinating. Pedro Martinez -- is there a more compelling person in the game, especially one near the end of his HOF career, and one whom you wonder what will be left to occur with him? Chase Utley -- is this one of the great second base careers being authored, and maybe one of the greatest Phillies ever before our very eyes? Ryan Howard -- you have to love a classic left-handed, first-base slugger. The guy's a damned prototype. David Wright. Billy Wagner, having played for both teams is in the cross-hairs. And for whatever reasons, so is Jose Reyes, and his competitor at the position, Rollins. In some ways, this rivalry has more threads to it than the Braves. It just lacks Chipper and Smoltz, that's all . . . .

24. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 25, 2008 at 10:34 AM (#2872668)


He echoes the sentiments akin to those pretend hard*sses at the VFW hall who want to send kids to every godd*mn, godforsaken, snake pit and when you ask THEM what THEY did they were a f*cking cook.

Is posing and preening necessary? No. But this wasn't that. He was excited. And heaven forbid anyone get EXCITED. Let's all make it like f*cking tennis and golf where everyone has to sit on their godd*mned hands while folks in prissy outfits fuss and fume on their own without outside comment.

great sentence

If we're discussing the merits of Rollins' and Reyes' character, let's gather the facts.
...
- While Rollins is flashy, he doesn't have an air of pretentiousness about him that Reyes does.

I got no dog in this race, but, uh, yeah, there's objectivity for you for sure.

I got no dog in this race, but, uh, yeah, there's objectivity for you for sure.

How is that unobjective?

As a semi-impartial observer Cubs fan who, if anything, doesn't like the Mets, the Reyes celebration was FAR down the list of antics we've seen on a baseball field just this year. Chill out.

How did you objectively measure his air of pretentiousness? Pretentionmeter?

How did you objectively measure his air of pretentiousness? Pretentionmeter?

Indeed. I believe Walmart is having a sale on them this week. I got mine off eBay, though.

As an aside, I am in many ways a booster of the unabalanced schedule, and I think the Phillies/Mets rivalry is a good example of its plusses.

If we're discussing the merits of Rollins' and Reyes' character, let's gather the facts.
...
- While Rollins is flashy, he doesn't have an air of pretentiousness about him that Reyes does.

How is that unobjective?

Seriously? You call that a "fact"?

Seriously? You call that a "fact"?

It's a fact that most people view Reyes' celebrations as pretentious, especially when you consider that he hasn't really earned the right to celebrate as vociferously as he has. He hasn't backed up any of those actions with his play on the field. He disappears in September and in the playoffs.

He disappears in September and in the playoffs.

Since Jose Reyes has a grand total of 44 post-season ABs in a grand total of one trip by the Mets to the play-offs, I think any conclusions about whether he "disappears" in the playoffs are pretty much a joke. FWIW, he played OK in the 2006 play-offs -- nothing spectacular, nothing terrible. Didn't bat .182 like a certain other NL East SS I can think of did in a recent post-season experience . . . .

As for whether he disappears in September . . . well, he sure did in 2007. On the other hand, in September 2006, he hit .297/.360/.436 -- not exactly chokeriffic. I think the evidence of how Jose Reyes performs when the chips are down is decidedly mixed. But if you want to judge Jose Reyes entirely on the basis of his late-season disaster in 2007, join the parade. That certainly seems to be the popular (if grossly unfair) thing to do.

It's a fact that most people view Reyes' celebrations as pretentious

Do you know what the word "most" means?

It's a fact that most people view Reyes' celebrations as pretentious, especially when you consider that he hasn't really earned the right to celebrate as vociferously as he has. He hasn't backed up any of those actions with his play on the field. He disappears in September and in the playoffs.

A major point of the argument against Reyes' treatment that everyone here is making is that his reputation as being "pretentious" is undeserved. You can't then go and cite the fact that he has that reputation as proof that he deserves it.

It's a fact that most people view Reyes' celebrations as pretentious, especially when you consider that he hasn't really earned the right to celebrate as vociferously as he has. He hasn't backed up any of those actions with his play on the field. He disappears in September and in the playoffs.

It's a fact that some posters here view Reyes' celebrations as pretentious.

He disappears in September and in the playoffs.
1: He's been in the playoffs once
2: He hit .297/.360/.436 in September 2007
he hit .262/.299/.369 in 9/05 (not out of line with his numbers on that season)

How about Rollins calling the Phillies the team to beat pre 2007? Had he (or the Phils) done anything AT THAT TIME to back that up????

and you wonder why I said your normal objectivity wasn't on display in this thread

Subjective opinions are not facts no matter how much you may believe them

... I'm starting to get the impression that Crash is just jerking our chains now

WARP-3 is garbage. Does anyone really think Reyes was three wins better in 2007 than he was in 2006? No way. And they have Reyes fielding well this season when he is having the worst fielding season in his career.

I do think Reyes is the Mets whipping boy but I don't get why celebrating is such a big deal for anyone.

I don't have a dog in the hunt at all; I don't care about either club and am more of an AL guy. That being said, raising your index finger as you round the bases in a July game is, IMO, pretty much horse****.

Crashburn is objectively an idiot. Most people agree.

Do you know what the word "most" means?

No. I only used that word because I heard it used on the news and I wanted to sound cool.

A major point of the argument against Reyes' treatment that everyone here is making is that his reputation as being "pretentious" is undeserved. You can't then go and cite the fact that he has that reputation as proof that he deserves it.

Fair point.

How about Rollins calling the Phillies the team to beat pre 2007? Had he (or the Phils) done anything AT THAT TIME to back that up?

5 seasons of above-.500 baseball out of the last six seasons and a couple very close calls with playoff berths.

Rollins had a pretty good 2006 in terms of power: 25 HR, 45 2B.

But other than that, no (and I don't say that sarcastically).

Crashburn is objectively an idiot. Most people agree.

I agree, too. So did my high school guidance counselor, my parents, and my special ed. teachers.

I guess I'm getting hung up on the word "pretentious." Frasier and Niles Crane were pretentious. The Queen of England is pretentious. The Yankees, God knows, are pretentious. Jose Reyes? What "most people" think is that he's obnoxious and and immature and petulent. A little baby, basically, who needs to grow up and stop annoying the hell out of them. I happen to think they're wrong on a number of levels (judging him based on the past; overreacting to little things; letting the N.Y. spotlight blow things out of proportion; applying a double-standard to him). But either way, even if I'm wrong, I don't know of anyone (except Crashburn, I guess) who thinks Jose Reyes is pretentious. Pretentious is for country-club Republicans, not over-celebratory Dominican shortstops.

This whole thing is just poor loser nonsense, but I rather enjoyed the irony of a backstabber like Chris Wheeler talking about "class" and Larry "aren't my puns hilarious?" Andersen bringing up the World Series. Larry ####### Andersen, with 4 losses in 14 postseason games. Not an easy task when you're not a starter or a closer.

Pretentious is for country-club Republicans, not over-celebratory Dominican shortstops.

Maybe Reyes was shouting Oscar Wilde quotes at the Phillies as he was rounding the bases.

The Yankees are pretentious in the same vein as Frasier and Niles Crane and the Queen of England? Really? I mean, sure, my team is obnoxious, overpaid, entitled, conceited, egocentric, underacheiving, sometimes stupid, and not that great at fielding. But pretentious? Is this because Ponson was knighted by Queen Beatrix?

But pretentious? Is this because Ponson was knighted by Queen Beatrix?

Oh, come on. MONUMENT PARK??? Keeping the stentorian tones of Bob Sheppard to announce Derek Jeter's ABs even after he has retired (and, it appears, even long after the guy is dead and gone, too)? The whole concept of "Yankee tradition" and the insufferable self-importance the franchise attaches to itself is the very embodiment of pretention.

The Yankees are pretentious in the same vein as Frasier and Niles Crane and the Queen of England? Really? I mean, sure, my team is obnoxious, overpaid, entitled, conceited, egocentric, underacheiving, sometimes stupid, and not that great at fielding. But pretentious? Is this because Ponson was knighted by Queen Beatrix?

Come on, Giambi's thong? Very la-di-da.

Oh, come on. MONUMENT PARK??? Keeping the stentorian tones of Bob Sheppard to announce Derek Jeter's ABs even after he has retired (and, it appears, even long after the guy is dead and gone, too)? The whole concept of "Yankee tradition" and the insufferable self-importance the franchise attaches to itself is the very embodiment of pretention.

every team has its retired numbers somewhere in the stadium. Plenty have statues and plaques too. And the "Yankee tradition" stuff is ... well, a byproduct of being the most successful sports franchise in American history. The Sheppard thing is quite creepy, but I don't see how it's "pretentious."

pretentious adj 1 pompous, self-important or foolishly grandiose. 2 phoney or affected. 3 showy; ostentatious.

I think 1 and 3 fit the Yankees pretty well. The whole *holy* pinstripe routine, the mystique and aure stuff, and the true Yankee nonsense... I honestly don't know how you can argue that the Yankees are not pretentious and keep a straight face...

The Sheppard thing is quite creepy, but I don't see how it's "pretentious."

It's pretentious of Jeter to attach to himself the sense of self-importance to worry about and ask that he have his own personal, pre-recorded announcer different from the rest of the team and (eventually) an announcer from beyond the grave. I mean, come on Derek. Just have yourself introduced like everybody else, will ya? You're not the President of the U.S. having Hail to the Chief played when you come out of the dugout. You're a baseball player.

Oh, but I forgot. You're the Shortstop For The New York Yankees. Isn't that . . . special.

Oh, but I forgot. You're the Shortstop For The New York Yankees. Isn't that . . . special.

You've completely misconstrued his attempt to honor a Yankee icon by keeping him in everyone's minds. I don't think it's a great idea, in fact I think it's creepy and unseemly, but the way you're presenting it is totally false. It's amazing that you can get so worked up about the media misrepresenting one of your guys and then immediately turn around and do it so quickly to someone else's.

It's pretentious of Jeter to attach to himself the sense of self-importance to worry about and ask that he have his own personal, pre-recorded announcer different from the rest of the team

what if he did it out of superstition? For all the talk about Jeter being a showboater and grandstander, there aren't as many examples as people would like to think. Don't get me wrong, I don't like the pre-recorded announcement thing, but it doesn't strike me as pretentious.

And let's face it, every team to some extent advertises itself by drawing on it's history (which is part of what I like about baseball in general). It just so happens that the Yankees have more of a history of success than most. Granted, they go overboard when they celebrate individual players that don't deserve it (see O'Neill, Paul), but you can't fault them for appealing to a fan base by reminding them that they used to have DiMaggio and Mantle any more than you can fault the Tigers for reminding them they use to have Al Kaline.

crashburn alley can go #### himself with a chainsaw. gently.

one significant reason people are getting down on Reyes in the NY papers is because he's a young dark skinned male who shows emotion. ever been in a newsroom? the place is paler than a cracker barrel.

It's a fact that most people I view Reyes' celebrations as pretentious

Fixed.

Reyes had me worried after last season, and I think it's pretty obvious, without casting judgment, that in such a close race, if Reyes just repeated his excellent numbers for the rest of the season in September, the Mets take the division. He came out of the gate this year looking like a different player, not as aggressive and a bit defeated. He rebounded, and it's awesome. He's a joy to watch play. Wright is a better player, but I'd rather watch Jose.

That said, he's having an off year with the glove- I think that's all it is, just some missed plays that seem more mental than anything else.

If Reyes had lifted his pinky instead of his index finger as he rounded the bases, now that would have been pretentious.

It's pretentious of Jeter to attach to himself the sense of self-importance to worry about and ask that he have his own personal, pre-recorded announcer different from the rest of the team and (eventually) an announcer from beyond the grave. I mean, come on Derek. Just have yourself introduced like everybody else, will ya? You're not the President of the U.S. having Hail to the Chief played when you come out of the dugout. You're a baseball player.

In all due respect, Sam, it's not pretentious for the Yankees to do the things to which you object because they are, without question, the most illustrious franchise in MLB. Were another team to do those things, yes, that would be pretentious. Pretentiousness consists not in the doing of certain "showy" or "boastful" things, but in the doing of them lacking the justification for them. The Yankees suffer no such lack.

To Monument Park, gentlemen! Don't forget your 25 banners!

That said, he's having an off year with the glove- I think that's all it is, just some missed plays that seem more mental than anything else.

Actually, I don't think he's showing a lot of range right now. If it were just errors, I'd think it is just mental but I don't think it is.

Oh, come on. MONUMENT PARK???

Maybe you were never at the stadium when there were only three monuments, and they actually were in the field of play. Far from being pretentious, it was one of the coolest things in baseball.

When they ended up sequestered behind a wall, it was never the same. Pretentious? No, just sad.

Far from being pretentious, it was one of the coolest things in baseball.

You either oppose the Yankees and everything they stand for, or you are part of the problem, Srul. What culminates in a franchise and its fan base seriously debating whether its best player (by far) counts as a "TRUE YANKEE" -- the idea that there is such a thing or that anyone should give a rat's ass what it means or how you qualify -- begins with notion that you would ever construct such a thing as a "Monument Park." It's a state of mind, and it runs throughout the entirety of the way the franchise projects itself.

Jose Reyes is annoying? Nothing is as annoying as the New York Yankees.

The Phillies media jerks and Red Sox Nation are coming up fast behind them, Sam.

"Nothing is as annoying as the New York Yankees"

I'm guessing you don't watch ESPN broadcasts.

I like Jose Reyes. I like watching Jose Reyes play baseball.

If CA gets irritated by Reyes I wonder if he actually enjoys the game.

Reyes, Brandon Phillips, Ryan Braun. These guys all have "Cadillac" moments.

And they are d#mn fun to watch.....

that damn Queen of England, always acting like she's some kind of ####### Queen or something, why doesn't she get that ####### stick out of her ass?)

J.C. Romero gets pivotal late game strikeouts? Who knew?

Anyone who gets pissed at Reyes' or anyone's celebrations is a #########.

Reyes generally acts like a jackass - he's a clown. I guess they could start saying in NY: "Jose being Jose". There's a fine line between youthful exuberance and immature antics. But I saw nothing excessive in the way he circled the bases after that home run.

From the NYT write up of last night's 4-2 win over the Marlins:

[Carlos Delgado] cranked a 2-2 pitch into the seats in right-center field, holding his hand aloft as he rounded the bases. The homer was his fifth in eight games.

I wasn't able to watch the game. Out of curiosity, did the announcers say anything about this horrific act of showboating, or did it not matter because it wasn't Jose Reyes?