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I would've thought Boras had more sense than this.
Methinks you've pretty much hit Boras's point right on the head, AG#1F. He's trying to bust the restrictive negotiation window, Pedro Alvarez's future be damned.
do the Bucs get the compensation pick if they can't come to a deal? what a mess.
Boras is arguing that the contract is void because it was agreed to after the deadline. So how can he ask for more money from the Pirates? Even if they wanted to give him more money, its past the deadline and his contract is void, so he has to wait until next year's draft.
Wouldn't it be better for him to say, "Yea, we agreed to an oral contract BEFORE the deadline, but an oral contract is voidable in this case since it violates the statute of frauds (performance for one year). However, we promise not to void it and sign a written contract IF you submit to our demands for ONE BILLION DOLLARS! You have 24 hours to comply."
Wow, I think this is the most interesting non-field incident to happen for monthes.
I can't understand Alvarez passing on a several million dollar check and earlier FA-hood for I'm sure what will amount to a few (hundred thousand) dollars. I won't be stupid enough to ascribe any thoughts to PA, but I'm baffled.
Guess we'll never know.
The part that'll get really interesting is if Boras tries to have him sign a deal with an indy league. I forget: When was the last time a player was banned for life for contract-jumping? I think there was a second baseman in the '50s...
One article I had read indicates that the disputed amount is the $200k it'd take to tie Pedro with Buster Posey for the top bonus among this year's draft class.
Seriously. $200k.
I posted this on the other thread- but I think the Pirates were negotiating publicly in an effort to reach Pedro (without Boras screening or spinning the message), and Pedro, not Boras, blinked and called the Pirates-
Boras is willing to see Pedro get screwed just as long as the Pirates get screwed too- Boras wants to send a message to other MLB teams- you can't "win" you can only hope for a draw - his rep as an agent for prospects has really been eroding since his heyday- he's taking a stand so to speak.
And what better way to rehabilitate your rep than shooting a star client's career right in the head? Sure worked for Tommy Tanzer, didn't it?
Missing pro baseball for a year? Kill your approval amongst fans? Turn a whole community off? Potentially kill potential suitors once you become a FA?
Baffling. There has to be a bigger angle I/we're missing.
Maybe he's trying to take down the whole draft in the anticipation of set contracts for draftees.
It's his rep with MLB teams that he cares about- he's willing to risk a client just to prove to them that they can't end run him.
Boras also has a huge ego- he ran a pretty big risk (not as big as this one), when he talked Hochevar into reneging on a verbal deal with the Dodgers- (that time he had to deal with another agent poaching his client during negotiations- other agents are Boras' REAL competition)- he won that one in spades- he got his client back, gave the dodgers the finger- and got enough money the next year to make it look like his client came out well ahead.
Based on the Hochevar experience Boras believes there is a decent chance he can get Pedro enough $ next year to make it look like Pedro won too.
My other theory is that Boras was trying to negotiate after 8/15 believing that the Pirates were not going to let Pedro go back into next year's draft- and that he had a de facto window to negotiate the written contract after the verbal agreement- and that he didn't think the Pirates would call him on it publicly.
Originally when Boras began doing his thing the MLB teams had no effective response to his tactics- but they have been watching and learning...
and that's why Boras is doing something that does not appear to be in his client's immediate interest- it is very much against Boras' interests to let MLB teams think they can benefit from that tactic.
Yeah, but if you're a prospective '09 draftee, and you see Boras sell Alvarez down the river here, why on earth would you sign with him?
Boras has been burned by that maneuver a couple times now. There's this instance, but the Braves signed Andruw Jones to an extension after the 2001 season by negotiating exclusively with Andruw and his father. Boras was completely excised from the process. He was reportedly furious, and it stills poisons the Braves' relations with Boras.
My guess is that the deadline requirement is not a formalized contract because that would be too complex to iron out all the issues at the 11th hour. Rather, I think the parties report to MLB that they have an agreement in principle and get together to iron out the last few details in the days after the deadline has actually passed.
Boras is not a fan of the new shorter deadline (and has stated so, IIRC) and has here decided to go against custom and not treat the provisional agreement's terms as finalized.
Again, this is just my guess.
Also, keep in mind we have only heard Pittsburgh's take on this whole mess. Boras could be trying to invalidate the agreement for reasons not directly related to the deadline & timing of the agreement.
This.
This is probably the best story on the whole Harrington debacle, if you're not familiar with it. Some quality followup here, too (with a Boras connection).
I believe so. If MLB says he has a valid contract with the Pirates, they control him. He can't go back into the draft.
He'd have to play in Japan.
The Alvarez agreement is inconsistent with his wish to monopolize the top talent in every draft class?
Under Major League Baseball rules, any player that refuses to sign an agreed upon contract and report to an organization can be put on the restricted list. While a player is on the restricted list, he may not sign a contract with or play for another organization.
and
RESTRICTED LIST.
If, without permission from his club a player fails, within ten (10) days of the opening of his
club’s championship season, to report to, or contract with, his club, he may be reported
by the club to the Commissioner, if a Major League player, or to the President of the
National Association, if a National Association player, for placement on the “Restricted
List.” A player on the Restricted List shall not be eligible to play for any Major League
or National Association Club until he is reinstated.
he's done if he doesn't sign.
a) Nope.
b) Yep, unless he decides to report, or they feel sorry for him and cut him loose.
Alvarez is a fool if he doesn't fire Boras immediately and sign the contract. $6M and he's set for life.
If he's any good he make tens of millions more.
I would assume there would be a whole lot of legal action to go through before getting to that point.
It's probably against his clients' interests, too. In addition, it's poor form. The individual is represented, and the team should interact with the representative.
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/H/Matt-Harrington.shtml
Sure, it's poor form... but so is an agent lying to his client about the terms given by the other side. Which Boras has done in the past, and may have done here as well, for all the team knows. They're just making sure that the player is working with the real set of facts.
Are you saying he couldn't play in the indy leagues, or risk being banned from MLB? Would that extend to Japan too since MLB has a working agreement or some sort?
That is a shot-across-the-bow from MLB, I suspect.
If Boras takes a binding position that the contract was submitted after the deadline, MLB's response will be that several contracts are void (including Hosmer's). That is going to get Boras a nice lawsuit from Hosmer and (once he comes to his senses) Alvarez as well. That's not good for business and is potentially very expensive.
How long do you think it would take for the courts to hear a case including all the appeals? Years, I'm guessing.
Then, what's the best Alvarez can get? To be readmitted to the draft, with a hugely tainted rep.
MLB and all the teams are going to unite behind the Pirates on this one.
Because Boras can point to Hochevar- where it looked for all the world like Boras had sold Hoch down the river just to prove the point that other agents shouldn't mess with Boars' clients- but then Boras got Hoch more than a million more the next year.
He couldn't go to Japan- the Japanese leagues have a working agreement with MLB (MLB is absolutely shameless about exploiting that anti-trust exemption)
He could only go to Indy Ball.
You stay classy, Scotty.
I would think so. Guys have been banned for jumping contracts to play in the Mexican League.
"That's not good for business and is potentially very expensive."
It also costs Boras his cut of both Alvarez's deal and Hosmer's deal, which would put a pretty significant dent in his own personal fiscal year. Not that he's hurting for money, but if he didn't care about that stuff, would he have bothered to orchestrate the whole Manny thing?
But that does him no good. After a year in Indy ball, he's in exactly the same situation contract wise; he can't re-enter the draft.
There's just not nearly enough information yet to have any idea what's really going on here. Since this is $cott Bora$ on one side and the Pittsburgh freakin' Pirates on the other, I mean, pretty much anything is possible here. It's a wait and see what develops.
But we all love guessing! My guess is this is indeed basically Bora$ picking a team renowned for incompetence and using it as a point of attack to try to tear down the 8/15 deadline. I'm also guessing Bora$, who is no dummy, has some legal ground to try to make his stand on, and wouldn't be doing this if he didn't have reason to believe he has a realistic chance of winning.
I don't get how this can all be put on Boras. If any harm is befalling Alvarez it is Alvarez's fault. He knows what is going on here, and if he didn't want this situation he could easily do something about it.
Which only works if he's able to pull a miracle reversal on Alvarez (and Hosmer). I don't think I'd put any money on that proposition.
I think it's too soon to speculate about players filing lawsuits against Bora$. Rather, I'd speculate Bora$ may be planning to file the mother of all lawsuits against Major League Baseball. The goal? Abolition of the draft. Getting rid of the 8/15 deadline would be an acceptable consolation prize.
I don't know the specifics, but Hochevar could have a delay in becoming arb eligible/free agent, which could cost him many millions. Ask Ryan Howard how is 10M this year feels vs. the paltry 900K he got the year before eligibility.
Or better yet, what if it invalidates the contract of a player not even repped by Boras- maybe that player and his agent too will go after Boras.
Sure, if he wants to get in trouble with the State Department.
That, and that alone, is driving this.
This is clearly not a young man who is worried about litigation...
Yes possibly, it's also possible that Hoch is a bust and that signing bonus is going to be the single largest chunk of change he ever sees.
I don't get how this can all be put on Boras. If any harm is befalling Alvarez it is Alvarez's fault. He knows what is going on here, and if he didn't want this situation he could easily do something about it.
Right, but he's being peddled an oceanful of snake oil. It's asking an awful lot of a 21 year old to resist that.
Sure. And that may well be where it ends up. It's certainly where Coonelly is trying to aim things - notice how carefully he places all the blame on Boras in his statement.
He should. Boras' commission should make up for the extra $200G very nicely.
Collectively-bargained drafts of amateurs have been upheld by the courts without exception. This concept is above Scotty's competence level.
I'm sure Scott has rationalized it in his mind that Alvarez can be a modern day Curt Flood.
Judging by the way he's pitching, not likely. ;)
Monty Burns: Will you permit us to live in your Socialist paradise?
Fidel Castro: Are you talking about Cuba?
One would assume, but since Boras is now trumpeting high and low how they didn't agree to a deal, who knows?
If I were a highly ranked player eligible for the draft, I couldn't care less about any of that as long as I got a nice dollar amount (like, say, $6 million) under the current rules. I'd be very surprised if Alvarez doesn't end up firing Boras, especially after he apparently has already bypassed Boras once before.
If things get ugly and there's an established course of dealing holding that a verbal agreement under similar circumstances is treated as a valid contract MLB rules, the Pirates should sue Alvarez for breach and Boras for tortious interference with contract.
And this is obviously an after-the-fact invention and lie.
The draft standing alone very well may violate anti-trust laws- but Boras has to deal with MLB's anti-trust exemption, and if he gets past that the draft is included as a provison of a collectively bargained contract between MLB and the MLBPA which have been held exempt from anti-trust laws as well.
Boras: What bill?
Going to Indy Ball would keep him in game shape-
Look the Pirates are not going to hold Pedro on the restricted list indefinitely- what good does that do them? If they are convinced he is never going to sign with them- then in that case they are going to want that 2009 #3 pick- and they'll have to agree to cut him loose to get it- letting him into the 2009 draft as well.
Boras isn't directly "harmed" by the amateur draft rules as they are now -- only amateur baseball players are.
But Eva didn't get that when he initially signed. Any team that guaranteed anyone $40 mil (in 2008 baseball dollars) before said prospect had so much as one MINOR league at bat would be completely insane.
Once again with the caveat that we're all just having fun guessing, this makes sense to me.
JPWF, I'm 92% sure Sean is saying that Bora$ is telling Alvarez that's what he'll get if the draft gets abolished or if he can get Alvarez made a free agent by some other means.
Boras wouldn't have standing. Alvarez would, subject to the quite possibly valid argument you've made. MLBPA wouldn't either, as it collectively bargained the matter. Others can read the CBA, but it likely is a breach thereof for MLBPA to bring such a lawsuit and, perhaps, even to support one.
The legal matters presented are way beyond Boras's competence level. He's more a middleman than a litigator of complex matters. Any gain that Alvarez may get would be wiped out almost entirely by legal fees and the benefits would accrue equally to those who didn't have to shell out the legal fees..
BTW Boras is a lawyer- if he actually had deal like that with his client (3mil out of his own pocket)- and it was exposed? Getting disbarred would be the least of his worries.
Yeah, that'll be a great defense if Boras gets fired and then ends up suing Alvarez for nonpayment: "Sure I said that, your Honor, I admit it. But in fairness, I lie about all kinds of things. Nobody takes any of my claims seriously. Except the claim that the defendant owes me money, of course - that's totally different."
An oceanful of snake oil ....
Right, but Bora$ is looking much, much more long term here. He pays for the best lawyers money can buy to represent Alvarez, with the goal being abolition of the draft or, if he can't have that, at least abolition of the quick signing deadline. Bora$ makes tremendous profit from that. He can definitely sell it to Alvarez as a win-win.
you could be right- afterall Travis Lee was a free agent by accident and a team threw money away on him before his first pro AB...
Wouldn't he risk a ban from MLB?
It lets them squat on six years' worth of rights for one of the top talents in baseball, while simultaneously giving Boras the finger for trying to #### them? They have all the leverage here. They can always throw big money at another top prospect, but unless they cave, Alvarez is never going to have another shot at a big payday.
Hell, it's not like they even really need extra picks in '09. They've already got a spare in the high second from Scheppers...
Yes, that is what I was saying. Get Alvarez declared a free agent and make 7 times guaranteed what he will get in the draft system.
Not really, unless Boras really is going all out in an effort to abolish the draft, the issue of whether Pedro agreed to a contract with the Pirates will almost certainly go to arbitration-
the arbitrator will either say Yes there's a contract, or No there's no contract.
If the arbitrator says no contract- Pedro goes into the 2009 draft and the Pirates get a compensation pick.
If the arbitrator says yes to contract- that's where things get fun- what if Pedro still refuses to report?
Now, if Boras is launching an attack on the Draft/ the MLB/MLBPA agreement- he's going to outright refuse to arbitrate.
But in this scenario he's not going to get one player declared a free agent- Crow will be one too- as will everyone in the 2009 draft class-
It's like Boras has gone ballistic and declared nuclear war- but he's got no nukes.
They put him on the reserve list. And if he signs a deal with an "outlaw" league, when he's already under contract to a MLB club, they could potentially ban him for life. It's happened before.
Decades ago.
Plus they unbanned everyone willing to crawl back...
Boras has yet to embarrass himself in any single negotiation that comes to mind, despite some brinksmanship in the past. I would be surprised to see him let down his client here, even if it isn't in the 'best interests of the game' etc. etc..
Oh yea, on vacation....
There is already a list of teams that won't deal with Boras or any of the players he represents. I wonder how many new teams joined that list after this?
One of my favorite games I ever went to was an Angels game I went to back in 2001. Scott Boras was talking to David Segui while sitting in the seat I had for the game. I was 15 at the time and made him get out of my seat. It was pretty awesome.
What evidence is there that Alvarez reached an agreement with the Pirates? From the way I'm reading it, the Pirates could just send in a deal to the head office and say "here it is", even if the player never agreed. That can't be right, so what am I missing. Thanks.
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