Questions: if in fact the Pirates' claims to a valid contract are upheld, can they begin imposing daily fines for Alvarez's not reporting? Can at least the threat of daily fines become an issue here or are we well past that?

"Boras has yet to embarrass himself in any single negotiation that comes to mind, despite some brinksmanship in the past."

Well, there was the inability to get Harrington signed the second time he was drafted, turning down a $1.25M bonus, which I mentioned earlier in the thread. He ended up signing for no bonus three years later, and stocking shelves to make ends meet.

"How could they have submitted a valid contract to MLB if it wasn't signed? What do they send to the league?"

My understanding is that notice was submitted to the league via e-mail.

100,
I think that means the ironed out all the language and the details and the only thing missing to the contract was the dollar figure. So they submitted all of that to MLB and told them they would fill in the dollar amount later so then the Pirates think they get Alvarez to agree to a number and they call MLB to fill in the number and count it as signed and done/.

MM1f, that's my understanding of the situation, that they had everything worked out except a dollar figure, so they notified the commissioner's office that they had an agreement.

My question is, isn't the dollar figure the most important part of the agreement? My take - and I assume this is Boras's take as well - is that if you didn't agree on a dollar figure, then you didn't have an agreement.

MM1f, that's my understanding of the situation, that they had everything worked out except a dollar figure, so they notified the commissioner's office that they had an agreement.

My question is, isn't the dollar figure the most important part of the agreement? My take - and I assume this is Boras's take as well - is that if you didn't agree on a dollar figure, then you didn't have an agreement.

Seems to me it would be more like the Pirates and Alvarez both informing MLB that Alvarez verbally agreed on a contract for X years and X dollars, but Alvarez has not put pen to paper because he's not sitting in the Pirates' office at the time of the agreement.

The legal matters presented are way beyond Boras's competence level.

Assuming this is outrageousness is what Boras is planning, I love it when these types of statements are made as though the biggest agent in baseball with millions and millions of funds at his disposal hasn't consulted with someone who does have the legal wherewithal to do it. Seriously?

"My question is, isn't the dollar figure the most important part of the agreement?"

Yes it is - but they had a verbal agreement on a figure as well.

"Alvarez's agent, Scott Boras, followed his recent pattern of taking negotiations to the closing minutes before ultimately calling Huntington -- the team's lone voice in the talks -- to accept. The Pirates, according to one person intimately familiar with those talks, never budged off their number, and Boras' call came at 11:58 to accept." -P-G (emphasis mine)

Seems to me it would be more like the Pirates and Alvarez both informing MLB that Alvarez verbally agreed on a contract for X years and X dollars, but Alvarez has not put pen to paper because he's not sitting in the Pirates' office at the time of the agreement.

And I would assume they need verification of this from both parties, right. Otherwise the team could just claim "oh yeah, we reached an agreement". Conversely, a player who had agreed to a deal then changed his mind could say "I never agreed to any of that, they're making it up".

Still, it sounds like something got sent to the league office. In this day and age, you'd think all contracts would need to be signed before being sent. Even if it's not the full contract, I guess I could see Alvarez signing an agreement to agree. Like a piece of paper with the basics, and saying basically that they'll formalize all the legal stuff later.

The Pirates, according to one person intimately familiar with those talks, never budged off their number, and Boras' call came at 11:58 to accept.

If Boras called personally to accept- and is now doing this- then I'm baffled...

The legal matters presented are way beyond Boras's competence level. He's more a middleman than a litigator of complex matters. Any gain that Alvarez may get would be wiped out almost entirely by legal fees and the benefits would accrue equally to those who didn't have to shell out the legal fees.

Are you kidding me?
Are you really saying a sports contract case is too hard for maybe the biggest sports agent ever to handle? If Boras can't deal with a big sports contract case, who the hell can?

And even if maybe Boras personally can't be the lead on it, although I don't know of any evidence to suggest that he can't, do you really think his giant organization doesn't have someone, or several someones, who are elite when it comes to dealing with stuff like this?

Granted, I'm no lawyer, but I see no reason to think that a guy so dominant in his field can't take on this kind of a challenge. If Boras can't, who could?

My read on this is that it's the baseball equivalent of a nuisance lawsuit. If Boras had some grandiose plan to overturn the draft, he would've picked a more substantial hill to die on than $200k. Instead, I think he figured he'd be able to shake the Pirates down for a little extra money that'd get Alvarez even with Posey on bonus, in order to make the potential problem go away (like a shipping magnate paying protection money to the mob to head off trouble with the dockworker's union). He misread the situation, though, and the Pirates won't cave (as indicated by Coonelly's hard stance today), and so now he has to either escalate things and try to create enough FUD that nobody knows whether he won or lost, or save face by slow-playing it and waiting until after he loses the hearing to fold his cards and go home.

And I would assume they need verification of this from both parties, right. Otherwise the team could just claim "oh yeah, we reached an agreement". Conversely, a player who had agreed to a deal then changed his mind could say "I never agreed to any of that, they're making it up".

I'm pretty sure it happened on conference call with Alvarez, his family, Boras (and probably some assistants) plus probably multiple Pirates folks on the other end.
The newspaper account of this, when he "signed" originally," described him saying "I accept" in response to a formal offer of 6mil from the Pirates on the other end of the line

Interesting take from Baseball America.

Union general counsel Michael Weiner said in a statement, "The Players Association learned from several sources that the commissioner's office had extended the deadline for negotiating and reporting signings with drafted players."

The union's argument is that the signing deadline was collectively bargained in the last labor agreement and can't be changed by one side without consulting the other. It filed a grievance and the matter could be heard by an arbitrator as soon as Sept. 10, but Weiner's statement does not specify what relief the union will seek.

"The grievance was not filed on behalf of any particular player," Weiner said. "It is the union's obligation, on behalf of all players, to defend the integrity of its collectively bargained agreements."

This puts a completely different spin on it. Maybe this isn't a Boras pissing match after all. I tend to agree that it's not OK for MLB to give extensions in specific cases.

The time thing will be easy enough to settle. Just check the phone records.

Yes, it's a totally different spin, but it would seem to be even worse for Boras, because:

1. It's pretty clear from the MLBPA statement that THERE WERE agreements for Alvarez and Hosmer (the question is when were they submitted);

2. Boras' bringing this issue to a head would seem to hurt his other client (Hosmer).

Arguably, Alvarez and his family could have woken up the next day and said: "What did we do!!", but let's be frank - does anyone doubt that deals have been submitted past the deadline to the Comish's office? The difference is that in those cases, the parties shut their traps about it.....

I thought the MLBPA had no jurisdiction, and claimed none, over draftees.

"The time thing will be easy enough to settle. Just check the phone records."

Pirates' e-mail to the commissioner would probably have a time stamp, too, come to think of it.

"I thought the MLBPA had no jurisdiction, and claimed none, over draftees."

They're saying that it's a violation of the timeline negotiated in the CBA, so even though they don't represent draftees, it's still a matter over which they have some say.

A more thorough rundown of the media-reported timeline here:

Scott Boras, Alvarez's agent, phoned general manager Neal Huntington at 11:55 p.m., five minutes before the Friday midnight deadline. They hastily exchanged a couple of dollar figures, but the team held firm with its offer of a $6 million bonus and minor league contract. Boras' asking price for months had been a major league contract worth $9.5 million but, seeing the clock tick in his California office, he relayed the Pirates' offer to Alvarez seated nearby.

Some with the team called it give-and-take. Others called it a staredown.

Back in the Alvarez family's Manhattan apartment, his closest kin gathered near a phone, waiting for a ring.

"It was pretty much a nervous time," recalled Yolayna Alvarez, his sister.

Pedro Alvarez approved of the offer, but he needed to speak it into the conference call to make it binding. A second call went to the Pirates, as did this ...

"I accept," Alvarez said.

No more than a moment passed before Huntington, still holding the phone, turned and shouted, "Send it!"

That order went to an administrative assistant who had every aspect of the contract drawn up, except the dollar figure, on an email to be sent to Major League Baseball headquarters. The $6 million was typed onto the screen, and off it went. -P-G

Thank you for that, Vlad.

IMO, Boras comes off worse after reading this than before.....

111:

Vlad wrote:

My read on this is that it's the baseball equivalent of a nuisance lawsuit. If Boras had some grandiose plan to overturn the draft, he would've picked a more substantial hill to die on than $200k. Instead, I think he figured he'd be able to shake the Pirates down for a little extra money that'd get Alvarez even with Posey on bonus, in order to make the potential problem go away (like a shipping magnate paying protection money to the mob to head off trouble with the dockworker's union). He misread the situation, though, and the Pirates won't cave (as indicated by Coonelly's hard stance today), and so now he has to either escalate things and try to create enough FUD that nobody knows whether he won or lost, or save face by slow-playing it and waiting until after he loses the hearing to fold his cards and go home.

I'm not convinced that Boras has taken this course in order to be a pest. If the Pirates no longer fear him, what benefit would his name give to his clients? Why sign with Boras when any competent agent would do?

The Pirates would be foolish to the extreme to pay a "Boras rent" given what has transpired. They'll likely have to deal with Boras during the 2009 Draft. The rent will likely be higher the next time around.

Alvarez may soon come to his senses. Hopefully Boras lacks the leverage needed to keep Alvarez under his control. If so, then Alvarez may be able to restore this deteriorating situation to one which is good enough for him, the Pirates, his family, team fans, etc.

That order went to an administrative assistant who had every aspect of the contract drawn up, except the dollar figure, on an email to be sent to Major League Baseball headquarters. The $6 million was typed onto the screen, and off it went.

OK, that would explain where the notion of them agreeing on everything but the dollar figure came from. Thanks, Vlad.

And I would assume they need verification of this from both parties, right.

Which is why I said both parties inform MLB in the sequence I posted. As someone said earlier a conference call with the Pirates, Alvarez and MLB would probably did suffice.

EDIT: I posted this before reading 118. Excellent stuff Vlad.

In this day and age, you'd think all contracts would need to be signed before being sent.

Actually, in this day and age, I would expect the exact opposite.

2. Boras' bringing this issue to a head would seem to hurt his other client (Hosmer).

Irrelevant. If Boras allows what is in Hosmer's interests to affect how he acts on behalf of Alvarez, he is in a world of trouble.

By then, the Harringtons, who publicly supported their agent the year before, fired him and eventually sued him for offering bad advice. He ended up losing considerable velocity on his fastball, and spent five years pitching in independent leagues before signing with the Chicago Cubs in 2006 for nothing more than a chance to play.

And he didn't make it. When you couldn't get a pitching gig with the 2006 Cubs, you know you're stock's in the shitter. The Cubs used about 15 starting pitchers that year, maybe 3 of whom had any business in the show.

What I don't get is how Harrington, after being drafted a second time, actually decided to turn down 1.25 million knowing what had already happened. The BA article leaves off at that point, and Pat Jordan's NYT piece doesn't really touch on it in any depth.

What the hell was this kid thinking. You lose out on 4 million or so. Then you lose out on 1.25. Then you get drafted a third time and turn down what had to be at least a 10-50k type offer to go do what...pitch for peanuts in the indie leagues as opposed to peanuts for an organization?

Boras's strategy:

1. Get an arbitrator to say the deadline is the deadline;
2. Show some timestamp of 12:02 am; then,
3. Establish a scenario where management's knowledge of the flexible deadline put Alvarez at a disadvantage. Even if they assumed they had an extra minute, that's the minute people blink in, and Boras can show that the Pirates weren't negotiating in good faith.

Seriously, if the timing of the notice is after midnight, then Alvarez has a chance at free agency. There just aren't a lot of remedies between upholding the contract and granting free agency.

I don't see where he has to be granted free agency. I'd think an arbitrator could reasonably rule that there's no contract and he goes back into the next year's draft.

What I don't get is how Harrington, after being drafted a second time, actually decided to turn down 1.25 million knowing what had already happened. The BA article leaves off at that point, and Pat Jordan's NYT piece doesn't really touch on it in any depth.

What the hell was this kid thinking. You lose out on 4 million or so. Then you lose out on 1.25. Then you get drafted a third time and turn down what had to be at least a 10-50k type offer to go do what...pitch for peanuts in the indie leagues as opposed to peanuts for an organization?

re-readTFA "In 2002, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays drafted him in the 13th round, at No. 374, and offered him less than $100,000."

Really? Really? What the #### man? What on earth was he thinking? To turn down a substantial third offer is just utterly insane.

Irrelevant. If Boras allows what is in Hosmer's interests to affect how he acts on behalf of Alvarez, he is in a world of trouble.

Ethically, if both his clients ended up with contracts which were in after the deadline, he has to recuse himself if one wants to pursue a course of action (such as blowing the lid on contracts that sneak-in under the deadline) that is counter to the interests of the other client (assuming Hosmer is happy with his deal).

But that's assuming that Boras acts ethically, and that's not something I'm willing to believe.....

128,
That is the only other option. There is no chance at free agency here. Either he signed on time, or he did not.
The chances of him getting FA out of this are equal to those of me making sweet, sweet love to Jessica Alba tomorrow

The Pirates today put first-round draft pick Pedro Alvarez on the restricted list for refusing to sign his contract.

Me tinks Alvarez either

a) can't pass a physical right now or

b) wants to graduate (his name doesn't appear to be on the graduation rolls at Vandy)

and me tinks this is Boras' way of stalling for his client. This doesn't seem to be another A-Rod type of deal.

It's amazing how, with no facts, SugarBear thinks he knows that Boras is lying.

re-readTFA "In 2002, the Tampa Bay Devil Rays drafted him in the 13th round, at No. 374, and offered him less than $100,000."

Really? Really? What the #### man? What on earth was he thinking? To turn down a substantial third offer is just utterly insane.

It wasn't a particularly substantial offer ("less than $100,000" was a lot less), but what he was thinking was that they had offered him so little because his velocity was way down, and he was hoping to play in the Indy leagues and re-impress scouts.

Me tinks Alvarez either

a) can't pass a physical right now or

You know, I hadn't thought about that, but it could be true. There were reports there was acrimony over the Pirates wanting a physical and Bora$ trying to avoid it... any chance this is a smokescreen Bora$ is throwing because Bora$' doctors don't think Alvarez can pass a physical?

but what he was thinking was that they had offered him so little because his velocity was way down, and he was hoping to play in the Indy leagues and re-impress scouts.

which was dumb, the bonus money was gone and it wasn't coming back, if he wanted to be an MLB player, or even have any type of MLB career, he should have signed by then.

what he was thinking was that they had offered him so little because his velocity was way down, and he was hoping to play in the Indy leagues and re-impress scouts.

Yeah, I don't get it when guys do that.

And I think any player who refuses to sign and goes back into the draft the next year is insane. If you think you're any good, you have to figure that the big payoff will come later. It's crazy to delay your development for a year and put off that day, over a relatively smaller amount. I think it's insane even to delay till the deadline. Just so that first contract can be $6M instead of $4M? Sign the deal, take the money, which is like winning the lotto, and so what if it's not the super lotto, and get your ass in the minor leagues.

If Boras can show that the Pirates just sat because they knew the deadline was flexible, then no arbitrator would send Alvarez back to school or to the independent leagues. They would not give the Pirates the benefits of a contract the Pirates tried to undermine.

I think it's insane even to delay till the deadline. Just so that first contract can be $6M instead of $4M? Sign the deal, take the money, which is like winning the lotto, and so what if it's not the super lotto, and get your ass in the minor leagues.

No one, absolutely no one has an ego like a teenager-young adult Jock whose been a star all his life- you'd be surprised how much cognitive dissonance they suffer when after being lead to expect 5 they get offered 4- also it's very easy for an agent to blow smoke up the nether regions of a kid with an outsized ego.

Also if you are Boras and your client mentions Harrington, Boras can always mention JD Drew and Hochevar- guys who's at out a year- came back and got more $- and he can also point out that Tanzer screwed the pooch on Harrington- not Boras- Boras has never had a total wipeout like that

They would not give the Pirates the benefits of a contract the Pirates tried to undermine.

huh?

I don't think that Boras is covering an injury for Alvarez, because I don't think the union would extend itself for that.

Seriously, if the timing of the notice is after midnight, then Alvarez has a chance at free agency. There just aren't a lot of remedies between upholding the contract and granting free agency.

Huh? What about reentering the draft?

There's no chance that Alvarez becomes a free agent. If the paperwork got in late, it's at least as much his own agent's fault as the Pirates for not meeting the deadline that all parties knew about beforehand. If Boras thought that he could get free agency for his clients by agreeing to post-deadline deals, you can bet that all of his clients would have accepted such deals.

All of contract law is backed by a requirement of good faith. The decider is not going to bail out a party that did not live by its own rules.

Speaking of Matt Harrington, I noticed the other day that Archie Manning was drafted three times in the third round or higher. Does anyone know of anyone else that's accomplished that?

And I think any player who refuses to sign and goes back into the draft the next year is insane. If you think you're any good, you have to figure that the big payoff will come later. It's crazy to delay your development for a year and put off that day, over a relatively smaller amount. I think it's insane even to delay till the deadline. Just so that first contract can be $6M instead of $4M? Sign the deal, take the money, which is like winning the lotto, and so what if it's not the super lotto, and get your ass in the minor leagues.

You're assuming it delays your development by a year. If you spend a year in an Indy league rather than in A ball, that doesn't mean you're further behind.

Boras wouldn't have standing. Alvarez would, subject to the quite possibly valid argument you've made. MLBPA wouldn't either, as it collectively bargained the matter. Others can read the CBA, but it likely is a breach thereof for MLBPA to bring such a lawsuit and, perhaps, even to support one.

The legal matters presented are way beyond Boras's competence level. He's more a middleman than a litigator of complex matters. Any gain that Alvarez may get would be wiped out almost entirely by legal fees and the benefits would accrue equally to those who didn't have to shell out the legal fees..

Someone is talking about legal matters beyond their competence level, but it is not Boras.

It's amazing how, with no facts, SugarBear thinks he knows that Boras is lying.

Normally I side with DMN on most thing, but I think the Pirates had no reason to screw this up. I know the organization has a catastrophic history of screwing things up (which Boras is most certainly trying to take advantage of), but I just don't see why the Pirates would lie about what happened. They have absolutely no incentive to be the ones to have this screwed up thing happen.

It's obvious that Boras thinks he sees a loophole. It may be there, it may not be there, but the Pirates have every right to be super pissed off.

If the paperwork came in late he's situated exactly the same as (say) Gerrit Gole. So, while Boras may well be trying to file the mother of all cases challenging the draft (and I have little doubt he'd like to file that case) I don't understand why this case is a good way to do that.

Am I missing some key fact here that distinguishes "submitted papers after the deadline" from 'didn't sign' for purposes of trying to challenge the CBA?

I don't think that Boras is covering an injury for Alvarez, because I don't think the union would extend itself for that.

That assumes Boras has knowledge Alvarez is healthy, of course.

And what about equitable rights here? Every day the Pirates don't have this young man in their system they lose something. How can they possibly made whole, assuming Alavrez signs one day.

Remember, people don't always act in a rational manner. Someone could just be acting like a fool.

Jonathan Mayo on contract protocol:

Here's how the process seems to work in these down-to-the-wire cases. The two sides come to a verbal agreement on a net value for the deal. Using the Alvarez case as the example, that value was $6 million. By 11:59 p.m., both sides notify the Commissioner's Office a deal has been struck for that amount. After midnight, it's fairly common for some of the smaller details to be ironed out -- things like when/where the physical will take place, smaller benefits like college tuition (if it's applicable), etc.

It's obvious that Boras thinks he sees a loophole. It may be there, it may not be there, but the Pirates have every right to be super pissed off.

It's very very very likely Boras thinks he sees a loophole, but that doesn't mean he's lying about anything he said.

The thing is, Boras has a history of approaching his agent job like a lawyer -- which he is -- rather than as a broker. That means he's not merely looking to close deals as fast as possible; he reads the rules carefully, looks for loopholes to exploit, and isn't shy about using them when he finds them. (Remember his Landon Powell gambit? I was amused by that one.) Like a lawyer, he's willing to put forth any colorable argument to help his clients; sometimes those are rejected, and then he looks foolish to the baseball commentariat, which isn't used to this approach. But sometimes he wins.