This pitcher-batting-eighth thing is growing on John Russell. The Pirates manager again last night batted his starting pitcher eighth, one night after Paul Maholm batted in that spot. Zach Duke was eighth behind third baseman Jose Bautista and ahead of shortstop Jack Wilson.

This wasn't a good idea in the early 90's when Leyland did it with Chico Lind, even though I loved it then. Better idea to have Bautista shot and try to win with an 8 man lineup.

This wasn't a good idea in the early 90's when Leyland did it with Chico Lind

My memory might be failing but I don't recall Leyland ever batting Lind behind the pitcher in Pittsburgh. ^^^^ Pankin alert ^^^^ Wilson and his .360 OBA need to be down the lineup getting more ABs.

My memory might be failing but I don't recall Leyland ever batting Lind behind the pitcher in Pittsburgh.

He didn't.

-- MWE

Such a great example of why optimal strategy is resisted because if it isn't accepted strategy managers feel their job is at risk.

After seeing Luis Rivas batting leadoff at both games I've been to this year, I am shocked that the same manager who would do such a thing would consider this. However, I now see that Rivas has only batted leadoff three times this year.

Anyway, the damage caused by having people like Luis Rivas (or Freddy Sanchez this year) in the lineup at all overwhelms whatever good can be done by a rejiggering of the lineup.

Jack Wilson has only played in 34 games this year, and he's already been in the starting lineup at the #1, #2, #7, #8, and #9 spots.

Better idea to have Bautista shot and try to win with an 8 man lineup.

Bautista has actually had a 103 OPS+ this year and a 130 OPS+ the last month. The problem (if any -- the Pirates are, inconceivably, third in the NL in runs per game) is Freddy Sanchez and his .229/.257/.313 line over 356 PAs, all but 3 PA of which have been from the top three spots in the order. That is a 52 OPS+ overall. He's batted second more often than not; if he keeps this up that would put him in second place on Treder's list of the worst #2 hitters of the past 50 years.

Anyway, the damage caused by having Luis Rivas is in the lineup at all overwhelms whatever good can be done by a rejiggering of the lineup.

Rivas has started one game in the last two weeks and has 7 PA in that time. Unfortunately Sanchez has done a bang-up job as the top-of-the-order out machine (TOTOOM?) in his stead.

I could get behind Luis Castillo hitting 9th for the Mets.

On the bright side, Sanchez's world-historical slump/precipitous decline means he won't be the Pirates' token All-Star this year, paving the way for Nate McLouth. Or more likely, some random reliever.

Good news/bad news for someone who seems to be overly reliant on Pirates (surprisingly enough for a 2nd place roto team). Capps to miss two months, but maybe this means more RBIs for McLouth.

As to the strategery behind batting the pitcher 8th generally, I just don't see it. Occam's razor and all -- ultimately, you bat your better players higher in the order because it's a simpler matter of them getting more at-bats over the course of a game and season. I suppose in the rare instance of a Micah Owings, Carlos Zambrano, or other assorted good hitting pitchers -- and a putrid bat in the lineup -- maybe it makes sense, but I cannot see any good reason why a manager would employ this strategy full time.

As to the strategery behind batting the best hitter 3rd generally, I just don't see it. Occam's razor and all -- ultimately, you bat your better players higher in the order because it's a simpler matter of them getting more at-bats over the course of a game and season.

As to the strategery behind batting the pitcher 8th generally, I just don't see it. Occam's razor and all -- ultimately, you bat your better players higher in the order because it's a simpler matter of them getting more at-bats over the course of a game and season. I suppose in the rare instance of a Micah Owings, Carlos Zambrano, or other assorted good hitting pitchers -- and a putrid bat in the lineup -- maybe it makes sense, but I cannot see any good reason why a manager would employ this strategy full time.


It is good to bat your best players higher in the batting order, so you should have a really good player at lead-off. Do you really want an out machine batting just before this good player?

It isn't obvious to me that the cost of extra pitcher AB's will be larger than the gain of having am adequate batter before your lead-off star.