It took him juuuust a bit too long to come out to say this.

The sad thing is that if he's telling the truth, he's been ruined completely anyways.

It took him juuuust a bit too long to come out to say this.

Didn't he say this after the positive test in 2005?

I remember people saying that he was accusing Tejada of using steroids, since he said he got the B-12 from him.

I remember it that way, too, Larry, but it won't matter what he says. The taint's on him, and he'll get rid of it as easily as we'll get rid of our physical ones.

The taint's on him,

This struck me as hilarious, for the wrong reasons. I'm going to go wash my mind out with soap.

What would it do to him if, hypothetically, Miguel Tejada were to come out and say, yeah, I gave him the tainted B-12 shots?

What would it do to him if, hypothetically, Miguel Tejada were to come out and say, yeah, I gave him the tainted B-12 shots?

All of the Cialis-popping, Cortisone-shooting, Tau-Tau-visiting members of the BBWWAA will apologize for their past holier than tau articles?

i'm good with this, and i'm glad he got his kudos at the college hof. solid, solid player. defintely a "mid-sized" MLB Hall mentality shoo in.

Palmeiro's case was always a tough one for me. He tested positive once which is obviously pretty damning. I half-way wanted to believe him when he explained about getting a shot from Tejada. Tejada has since been identified as a user with no explanation. Knowing "locker room" etiquette I found it strange that Palmeiro would name a teammate and the fact that doing so went against accepted code actually made him more credible. I'll put him in the "who knows" category. He hit a lot of homers, but they were spread out over 20 seasons. He hit 30 some every year with a few seasons in the 40's not crazy seasons like 50's & 60's. He was playing 150+ games a year so his HR/AB ratio was not outrageous. If you look at his rookie card (1987 Topps) and look at his later cards you don't see a major change other than the normal weight gain expected as you age.

In Canseco's book he talks about "B-12" shots being a euphemism for steroids/PED's. I thought that was interesting.

For his age 26 thru age 36 seasons, he missed a total of 25 games. This is assuming his teams played 162, 113 in 1994 and 144 in 1995.

From age 23 thru age 39, the fewest games he played was 152 (excluding strike years).

15th all time in plate appearances.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/p/palmera01.shtml

It may not be the most likely explanation, but it seems at least possible that Palmeiro didn't know the code and thought he was just getting B-12 from Tejeda. He was roundly criticized for "dragging" Tejeda into the situation, but Tejada's subsequent history makes you wonder. IIRC, Palmeiro's initial statement seemed to suggest that he thought what he received may have been tainted rather than knowingly spiked by Tejada.

Not too long ago -- last week, maybe the week before -- I wrote on a Primer thread that I believed Palmeiro may not have known that the shot he got from Miggy was a steroid. (I doubt Tejada did not know, though.) Immediately, some j-hole jumped down my throat and called me an idiot for believing Palmeiro may not have known. (I'm thus relieved by many of the posts above which suggest I'm not the only one who thinks it's at least possible that Tejada screwed over Palmeiro and not the other way around, as it was portrayed when Raffy pointed the finger at Miggy.)

That said, I think Palmeiro is lying when he says he never knowingly took PEDs. I've read Canseco's book, "Juiced." He doesn't imply that Palmeiro was a juicer. He describes injecting him (and Juan Gone and Pudge Rodriguez) in detail, describes hooking those guys up with steroid sellers and says they all took HGH as well as a few types of anabolics which Canseco names. While Canseco has surely told some lies over the years, it seems to me that the stories from his book have proven to be true, and that he would have no reason to single out Palmeiro as a teammate he injected with anabolics if that was untrue.

There is no definitive evidence that Palmeiro is lying here, so I will make no judgement on the matter. For his sake, I hope that he is being truthful. For lying about taking steroids is far worse (from an ethical standpoint) than taking them in the first place.

I've always believed him the same way Bill James stuck by Pete Rose. Hope I'm right though.

Good grief, hard to believe some people want to buy into this.

Stanozolol is virtually never taken by itself by males, but rather as part of a stack. It can be injected or taken orally in pill form, though it's not uncommon for users to drink the injectable version. It also must be taken daily (or every other day) and has a unique, white milky color - not even close to B12.

It's patently absurd for someone to claim they were unknowingly injected one time with Stanozolol then came away with a positive test.

Didn't he say this after the positive test in 2005?

I remember people saying that he was accusing Tejada of using steroids, since he said he got the B-12 from him.

Yes he did say this before; it's nothing new. But note something here: if Palmeiro is telling the truth, neither he nor anybody else has any way of determining that Tejada was responsible. He knows he got a B-12 from Tejada; he doesn't know that the B-12 shot was the culprit. The fact that he can't think of any other explanation doesn't mean there isn't one. (Why would Tejada screw him that way?)

That said, I think Palmeiro is lying when he says he never knowingly took PEDs. I've read Canseco's book, "Juiced." He doesn't imply that Palmeiro was a juicer. He describes injecting him (and Juan Gone and Pudge Rodriguez) in detail, describes hooking those guys up with steroid sellers and says they all took HGH as well as a few types of anabolics which Canseco names. While Canseco has surely told some lies over the years, it seems to me that the stories from his book have proven to be true, and that he would have no reason to single out Palmeiro as a teammate he injected with anabolics if that was untrue.

Don't be silly; we know Canseco told the whole truth about everything. Except when he said Clemens was innocent. Obviously that's a lie, because everyone who is suspected or accused is guilty.

Why would Tejada screw him that way?

Ummm ...

Nah. Too easy.

Why would Tejada screw him that way?

Because Tejada thought they were speaking the same language, in which B-12 means steroids.

I've always believed him the same way Bill James stuck by Pete Rose. Hope I'm right though.

James' defense of Rose got stranger and stranger over time, what was really bizarre if you read the early Abstracts was that he was no fan of Rose. His later defenses of Rose read like poor legal briefs, if something could be seen two ways, he saw it the way that favored Rose, if something could not be seen, even when twisted around, to favor Rose, he would either attack the source, ignore it, or simply deny reality. I had become a fan of his mainly because he approached baseball analysis logically and systemically (unlike any Main stream writer back then)- he threw all of that out the window when he repeatedly wrote in Roses' defense. To this day I have never understood why he did that, but I have been suspicious of his analytical writings ever since (When he attacks pitch counts now he can be especially bad- not that he doesn't have a point, but he attacks pitch counts the way a mediot would and simply repeats the mantra, there are no studies... one give and take with some guy from BPro a few year ago as priceless- James said that there was no evidence that pitch counts serves ANY purpose, BPro said we did a study that showed that ERAs are X points higher the start after a 125 pitch outing than 100 pitch outing... James ignored that, a little later, repeated the "no studies have shown anything" mantra... BPro guy says, well we did a study... James ignored him... That cycle repeated a few times.

JAmes seems to have lost the curiosity he used to have, the only times he jumps on a new idea now is if it fits with his preconceived notions, if not he either ignores it or denigrates it. He has become the type of analyst he used to derride, which is sad.

I still think he is the all time greatest figure in sabrmetrics. Unfortunately the rundown to his career is like Rose's

Because Tejada thought they were speaking the same language, in which B-12 means steroids.

Why would they have to speak in such code? I don't buy that.

James' defense of Rose got stranger and stranger over time, what was really bizarre if you read the early Abstracts was that he was no fan of Rose. His later defenses of Rose read like poor legal briefs,

Well, they read like legal briefs when the attorney has a poor case. The problem is, James was portraying himself as an analyst rather than as an advocate. If he had said, "This is the best case that can be made for Rose: ___" and then said the same thing, it wouldn't have looked so desperate.

At this point, we don't know the circumstances of these shooting deaths," Aaron said. "The investigation is going to be conducted by the police department's centralized homicide unit. Those detectives have assembled here at the scene. The condominium still has to be processed. There is a lot of work yet to be done. It's going to take many hours to process the scene. I don't have any answers for you now as to what's happened, who's responsible, what the circumstances are." Aaron said that police had tentatively identified the woman but did not release her name, pending confirmation of that identification and notification of her family.

Before there is any solid evidence made public and before another celebrity dies -- seems like they are dropping one or two a day lately -- anyone have any speculation on the Steve McNair homicide?

It sounds like the "unidentified woman" who was also dead from a gunshot wound was not his wife. In cases of a presumed murder-suicide, the police normally declare that finding right away. ("Gunshot residue was found on the dead man's hand; eight inches from where he fell we recovered a 9 mm automatic with the dead man's prints on the handle.") So for now I guess this was not a suicide case. If the woman was not a relative of his, it leads me to speculate that there may have been some kind of a paramour-tryst-love triangle situation, in which McNair's lover's other lover or ex-lover killed the two of them in a rage. (Maybe OJ did it?) For now, I'm downgrading the possibility that OJ was at her apartment in search of Stanozolol.

Stanozolol is virtually never taken by itself by males, but rather as part of a stack. It can be injected or taken orally in pill form, though it's not uncommon for users to drink the injectable version. It also must be taken daily (or every other day) and has a unique, white milky color - not even close to B12.

It's patently absurd for someone to claim they were unknowingly injected one time with Stanozolol then came away with a positive test.

So you're saying that if he was unknowingly injected one time, that he would not have tested positive?

It's certainly presented in the media as "inject before the game, hit a home run." I know it's not that simple, but I confess I have no idea what goes into roiding up.

So you're saying that if he was unknowingly injected one time, that he would not have tested positive?

Unless he was tested within a day or two of letting someone inject a substance that looks exactly like milk into him for the first time in his life, then yes, that's what I'm saying. This from a guy with a history of duplicity.

Before there is any solid evidence made public and before another celebrity dies politician implodes -- seems like they are dropping one or two a day lately -- anyone have any speculation on the Steve McNair homicide Palin resignation?

#21 is a very nice post, with the money quote being "JAmes seems to have lost the curiosity he used to have, the only times he jumps on a new idea now is if it fits with his preconceived notions, if not he either ignores it or denigrates it. He has become the type of analyst he used to derride, which is sad."

James is now an "expert" who holds forth on whatever topic he pleases, espousing platitudes whether they make sense or not.

Before there is any solid evidence made public and before another celebrity dies -- seems like they are dropping one or two a day lately -- anyone have any speculation on the Steve McNair homicide?

It sounds like the "unidentified woman" who was also dead from a gunshot wound was not his wife. In cases of a presumed murder-suicide, the police normally declare that finding right away. ("Gunshot residue was found on the dead man's hand; eight inches from where he fell we recovered a 9 mm automatic with the dead man's prints on the handle.") So for now I guess this was not a suicide case. If the woman was not a relative of his, it leads me to speculate that there may have been some kind of a paramour-tryst-love triangle situation, in which McNair's lover's other lover or ex-lover killed the two of them in a rage. (Maybe OJ did it?) For now, I'm downgrading the possibility that OJ was at her apartment in search of Stanozolol.

I'm from the Nashville area, and let me tell you, this has shaken me up quite a bit. My very first thought when hearing everything was that his wife found them and killed them both; now, though, I hear his wife was in MS during the time. I had kinda considered his mistress/girlfriend's lover/former lover, but I just don't know. I've been scared as hell this would turn into a Chris Benoit situation, if that happened I don't know if I could take it.

I can't really wrap my head around everything that's happened regarding this, but I'm freaking depressed and more than halfway through a bottle of Jack.

The most recent reports suggest it was a murder-suicide:

Former NFL quarterback Steve McNair was shot multiple times, including once in the head, and a pistol was discovered near the body of the 20-year-old woman found dead with him Saturday in a downtown condominium.

Nashville police spokesman Don Aaron identified the woman as Sahel Kazemi, whom he called a "friend" of McNair's. She had a single gunshot wound to the head.

Police said the 36-year-old McNair was found on the sofa in the living room, and Kazemi was very close to him on the floor. Aaron said the gun was not "readily apparent" when police first arrived.

It sounds like she killed him and then killed herself. If that's the case, she probably was either a psycho who McNair knew, but did not know she was so dangerous, or she was some kind of spurned lover who went nuts (which I think accounts for most murder-suicide cases, usually the jealous man murdering the woman who spurned him*).

Later parts of the story suggest to me it is very likely McNair was having an affair with this woman:

The bodies were discovered Saturday afternoon by McNair's longtime friend Wayne Neeley, who said he rents the condo with McNair. Police said a witness saw McNair arrive at the condo between 1:30 and 2 a.m. Saturday and that Kazemi's vehicle was already there. Two days ago, Nashville police arrested Kazemi on a DUI charge while driving a 2007 Escalade registered to her and McNair. McNair was in the front seat, but didn't break the law and was allowed to leave by taxi.

*That's for the most part the story with OJ Simpson (though I think there were other motivating factors for OJ, including alimony money). The differences are that OJ did not have the decency to kill himself and a second victim got in the way. Ron Goldman had the terrible luck of being at Simpson's erstwhile wife's home when OJ showed up in a rage with a giant knife.

I've heard a lot of people say that Goldman was ex-Mrs. Simpson's lover. His family and friends say he was not. It's irrelevant, though. When OJ decided to murder his ex, he almost certainly did not know Goldman would be on her front porch when he arrived ready to kill.

I can live (luckily) with McNair being the victim of this apparently insane woman. I just really hope he wasn't the killer. It looks like he wasn't. It is odd, you hardly ever hear about a woman going all psycho on her boyfriend. Who knows what could've caused it? The DUI last Thursday? I dunno... I mean, I can live with an old hero being a cheating SOB, I'm just hopeful he isn't a murdering SOB.
Safe to say he didn't deserve to die for this.
Again, I've been drinking heavily, so I'll be happy if this makes the slightest bit of sense in the morning.

(Edit: "This" meaning my post. Not the situation. I don't think the situation will ever make sense.)

Not sure which is more pathetic: Palmeiro's patently ridiculous statements or people who believe him. Just do a little ressearch on the subject for crying out loud. As noted in 26 and 16, stanozolol/winstrol has an extremely short half life. It has to be taken daily in order to remain at an effective level (or at a level which would cause a positive result). To believe Palmeiro tested positive within a day or two of unwittingly taking the only AAS of his life is gullible in the extreme.

Furthermore, there is no reason for a baseball player to be taking AAS at a level which would cause the sort of hypertrophy seen in other sports or in bodybuilding or pro wrestling. The benefits most baseball players would be looking for are the increased abilty to recover from a demanding playing, training and travel schedule and the increased feeling of youth and vigor brought on by a supraphysiological level of T, which may be had without extreme gains in size. That Palmeiro didn't turn into a juice monkey like Bonds, McGwire, Giambi and Sosa is in no way indicative of a lack of use on his part.

#21 I think you need to re-read James' criticism on PAP. It's among the most solid pieces of research he's done in some time.

And far from ignoring Keith and Rany, he sent his article off to them before the publication of "Guide to Pitchers" and published their response.

I agree with the thrust of your post -- sadly I think there's entirely too much "opinion from expert" and not enough research (that we can see at any rate -- his own description of the way he works for the Red Sox says he's doing an awful lot of small studies that never see the light of day), but on this specific point I think you're very wrong.

And far from ignoring Keith and Rany, he sent his article off to them before the publication of "Guide to Pitchers" and published their response.

The back and forth I was talking about was on an online forum- perhaps he changed his mind later, I don't know, I never got the "Guide to Pitchers".

I think you need to re-read James' criticism on PAP. It's among the most solid pieces of research he's done in some time.

None of the criticism's of James of PAP* that I have read (and admittedly I quite likely have NOT read them all), have included such "research", rather he seemingly starts with the assertion that it is nonsense, throws in a few anecdotes, "look at all the guys who threw 300 + ip in the early 70s, look how long there careers were..." Then he asserts that there is an absence of evidence... I haven't seen him say, "I've done a new study, I've taken every pitcher from _____ to __________ who averaged more than X PAP per start and compared them to every Pitcher from _____ to _____ who averaged less than X PAP per start and found that...."**

* I'm not a fan of PAP, and tend to actually agree with James on it- my point was how he approaches such an issue NOW is very different than how he used to)

** Yes I know the study I outlined wouldn't work, the high PAP pitchers would be MUCH better than the low PAP pitchers, you have to control for that (among other things)

The back and forth I was talking about was on an online forum

From what I can see he's not at his best in that kind of forum.

One of his most recent columns on his pay site is a kind of mea culpa. Something to the effect of I'm trying to learn to disagree without being disagreeable. Worth noting that his old friend Craig Wright didn't have a happy time on the old inter-tubes. Nasty little fight with Chris Kahrl. (In response to a "trust us, we're experts" post by Craig) Not everybody does well in these types of forums.

I haven't seen him say, "I've done a new study, I've taken every pitcher from _____ to __________ who averaged more than X PAP per start and compared them to every Pitcher from _____ to _____ who averaged less than X PAP per start and found that...."**

That's almost precisely what he did in the study (well studies ... he looked at the issue in a number of ways) I mentioned. Started from the list of most abused pitchers that Keith and Rany produced.