Well, Rob says that Mauer is "the most talented baseball player on the planet," which ought to be a consolation prize.

By using Wins Above Replacement, I imagine the list gets skewed toward guys like Randy Winn, who played all ten years of the decade and rarely missed a game. This obviously doesn't mean that Randy Winn is a very great baseball player, only that if you'd signed him to a modest ten-year contract in 1999, you'd have gotten a pretty good deal. Lots of teams have been suffering for the want of a reliable, if unspectacular player like that year-in year-out.

Doesn't quite explain Corey Koskie, though.

I'd spend my rage on this, but I'm waiting for John Sickels' list of A's prospects so I can fume that the #9 rated prospect should really be the #6 rated prospect. I'm going to get you John Sickels. GRRRR!

Doesn't quite explain Corey Koskie, though.

That one's positional difference. Koskie and Morneau have pretty much the same number of PAs this decade (3,527 for Koskie v. 3,601 for Morneau) and Morneau leads him in OPS+ 123-113 (Morneau's not as good a hitter as people think and Koskie was actually pretty good). The gap of 10 in OPS+ is basically wiped out by the fact that Koskie was a 3B and Morneau was a 1B (Koskie's also got an edge of around 400 innings in the field). Just eyeballing it, if you're just going strictly by total value over the ten-year period from 2000 - 2009, that seems about right to me. Surprising, but about right.

Ditto for Cameron and Hunter (though maybe not as surprising).

Cameron has more plate appearance (by about 2/3 of a season) and adjusting for Safeco & a higher OBP makes his offensive production slightly better. He was also the better defensive player eyeballing it, thought I would havn't thought the difference was as great as totalzone says which gives Hunter a negative total for the decade!

On Cameron vs. Hunter, both have the exact same career OPS+ of 107. Cameron has more stolen bases at a better percentage. He ranks ahead of Hunter because the defensive metrics see Cameron as the better fielder, though the gold glove voters have a different opinion.

I would never have thought Koskie would rank ahead of Morneau. I just provided the list Rob asked for, and he did a little of moving players up and down for subjective reasons, or playoff heroics, or what have you. But now that I look at them, I don't disagree with it. The list shows, for 2000 on, Koskie at +21.6 and Morneau at +15.7. Morneau became a regular in 2005, and is only above replacement level for that season due to a +9 defensive rating, which was probably a fluke since he hasn't repeated it. Otherwise, a 1B with a 93 OPS+ has little value.

I'll look at Morneau's good years, 2006-2009, and compare to Koskie's best years, 2000-2003.

WAR: CK 16.7, JM, 14.4

Batting: CK 52, JM 116 - Big difference here, and batting numbers are going to agree, show the same story if you use baseruns, OPS+, RC, or any of the good numbers. No dispute that Morneau is the much better hitter.

Baserunning: CK average (includes reach on error and avoiding DP), JM -9
Koskie was a better baserunner but it's not a big deal

Defense (includes turning DP): JM -7, CK +33

This is where Koskie starts to make up ground. You might disagree with this. Perhaps UZR or +/-, more detailed defensive metrics, disagree but I haven't checked. What my numbers say is that Morneau is about an average defender at first and Koskie was an above average defender at 3rd.

Finally, position adjustment Koskie +8, Morneau -41. This is where Koskie pulls ahead.

I'm not comparing the total decade anymore, just the 4 best years of each player, which is advantageous to Morneau, as he only has 4 good years so far. If I'm wrong, it's because either Koskie was overrated as a defender, Morneau is actually well above average defending instead of the rating I give him, or else the position difference is less than 12 runs per year.

I was surprised to see people like Corey Koskie on the list, but not Jermaine Dye or Paul Konerko. Both were very good hitters, occasionally slightly better than that, and played the entire decade. Both had some postseason heroics. Did their fielding really drag them down that far? Dye was a pretty decent fielder for the majority of the decade, and Konerko is a perfectly adequate first baseman. I mean, why is Carlos Lee on the list and not these two guys?

That being said, I think it was a good list overall.

They need a catcher bonus - if you measure in pure WAR the catchers are going to be screwed. Look at where Bench and Berra place on the career WAR lists.

Re: #6,

Part of it is that AROM's system hates Konerko and Dye's defense. Dye is something like -50 runs for the decade, Konerko is about -30. Konerko also loses a lot of runs for GIDP. With Dye, his bad seasons mean that he wasn't actually that good of an offensive player over the course of the decade: a SLG-heavy 115 OPS+ from a corner outfielder isn't all that good. Combined with the defense, it's easy to see how he misses.

They need a catcher bonus - if you measure in pure WAR the catchers are going to be screwed. Look at where Bench and Berra place on the career WAR lists.

Absolutely right, DL.

So, no love for peak value? This is the kind of thinking that makes Jack Morris the best pitcher of the 1980s.

Jack Morris had the most wins in the 1980's. That does not make him the best pitcher of the 1980's. I haven't checked but my guess is Blyleven had more WAR, and maybe even Clemens, Gooden, Hershiser, or Saberhagen despite later starts. Maybe Fernando too.

I haven't checked but my guess is Blyleven had more WAR, and maybe even Clemens, Gooden, Hershiser, or Saberhagen despite later starts. Maybe Fernando too.

Don't forget Stieb. He's up on Morris by 45.2 to 27.9 for the decade.

EDIT: And Nolan Ryan (30.8 WAR for the 80s)

Jack Morris had the most wins in the 1980's. That does not make him the best pitcher of the 1980's. I haven't checked but my guess is Blyleven had more WAR, and maybe even Clemens, Gooden, Hershiser, or Saberhagen despite later starts. Maybe Fernando too.

Dave Stieb, in a walk.

Thanks for bringing him up. Steib was the pitcher of the 80's. Bob Welch (35.1) is ahead of Morris too.

I hate this list because it fairly assesses the value of players that I personally wildly overrate!

Sadly, Morris outpaces Quiz in '80s WAR: 27.6 to 24.6. That would have been a fun one.

The whining over Koskie is weird to me. He was a pretty good player and is only ranked #92. I doubt anyone would have too much problem if you swapped him out for Morneau or Howard. Who cares?

And I'd take Mauer over Drew too, but it's supposed to be value over the 10 years and Drew has been a pretty ####### good, all around player.

Sadly, Morris outpaces Quiz in '80s WAR: 27.6 to 24.6. That would have been a fun one.

What about Martinez and Tanana?

you would take Mauer over Drew for the decade for real? why?

As a Twins fan, I was thrilled to see Koskie (and Radke) make the list over Morneau. Koskie was an incredibly underappreciated player at the beginning of the decade. The guy played very good defense, could pop 20 HR's, had a solid OBP and was a deceptively sneaky baserunner. While he always looked like he was two steps away from being paralyzed, he was also always in the right place at the right time.

Oh, and if his double in Game 2 of 2004 ALDS is two feet lower and doesn't skip into the stands, he's the hero of that game (rather than Jeter/ARod) and has some big postseason heroics as the Twins take a 2-0 lead back to the Dome.

What about Martinez and Tanana?

For Martinez, the 1980's are the lost decade, the doughnut hole in the middle of his record. In the equivalent record I use for HoM purposes, I have him at 94-98 for the years 1980-1989. On the other hand if I add together 1977-1979 and 1990-1996 (an aggregate 10 years), I get 127-95. So he was better outside the 80's than he was inside that decade.

Some equivalent records, 1980-1989:

Martinez: 94-98 (as given above)
Morris: 150-121
Tanana: 111-111 (his best years were in the mid-70's)
Stieb: 156-102 (Yes, Stieb is the one)
Saberhagen: 91-56 (only 6 years)
Gooden: 90-54 (also only 6 years - and there is a year of 25-6 equivalent in there)
Viola: 115-92 (8 years)
Valenzuela: 128-110
Stewart: 92-81 (9 years, and misses 1990 which was his best year)
Tudor: 108-73
Scott: 106-95
Reuschel: 115-91 (which misses his best years in the late 70's)
Ryan: 126-106
Blyleven: 131-100 (which misses his peak)
Sutton: 105-91 (9 years, and post-peak)
Carlton: 104-88 (9 years, and post-peak)
Reuss: 97-91
Eckersley: 97-80 (includes beginning of his relief career; misses peak starter years in late 70's.)
Key: 82-59 (7 years)
Langston: 84-69 (7 years)
Clemens: 93-49 (6 years - is he a contender?)

Brian Matusz didn't even make the list, so it has pretty much no validity.

If I'm wrong, it's because either Koskie was overrated as a defender, Morneau is actually well above average defending instead of the rating I give him, or else the position difference is less than 12 runs per year.

Yes, no, yes.

As noted in the other thread, it would be more interesting to see the half-decade lists and see where each of these players (almost mutually exclusive to each half-decade) would rank. Measuring only their hitting (OPS+), Koskie ranked 64th from 00-04, Morneau 37th from 05-09. Once you adjust for defense and calm down the positional difference, you probably close this gap a good bit, but Morneau might be in the high 40s in his half-decade, Koskie in the low 50s in his.

you would take Mauer over Drew for the decade for real? why?

Because you weight big seasons more heavily? Honestly, I think one should probably do that that, and so I think Mauer should be higher and Bonds should possibly be #1.

Mike Cameron is No. 36 on the list, while Torii Hunter—whom we’ve always considered a better version of Mike Cameron—is No. 70.

That's funny. I've always considered Torii Hunter to be a worse version of Mike Cameron.

Chase Utley is #37 on the list, while Ryan Howard doesn't crack the top 100. Utley's a better all-around player than Howard, but he's not that much more valuable.

CHRIS CARPENTER???!!!

Don, you apparently don't agree with a -10 run position adjustment for 1b. What do you think it should be? And have you done any research showing it should be less?

Chase Utley is #37 on the list, while Ryan Howard doesn't crack the top 100. Utley's a better all-around player than Howard, but he's not that much more valuable.

Yes, he is.

Corey Koskie was a fantastic defensive third baseman. If he doesn't get a concussion things get better for Milwaukee in 2007 onward

This kind of a list holds almost no interest for me. It's far too dependent on an arbitrary ten year period and on the happenstance of when players happened to come in and out of the league.

In a HOF discussion you're comparing players at like positions. You're looking at them in various ways -- peak seasons, career -- but you're not just arbitrarily dismissing, say, Pedro's 1999 because it happened to come one year earlier. In an MVP discussion, to take another example, you're not dismissing ARod's lost month because it happened to come in April. This exercise "best player of the '00s" is fairly silly.

And the guffawing over Corey Koskie being included on the list is laughable to me. Koskie was a good hitter at 3B for half a decade. Morneau was a slightly better hitter at 1B for half a decade. What is the problem with ranking Koskie slightly better? (Not that it makes much sense to whine over Morneau by singling out Koskie just because they both happened to be Twins.)

Finally, it was amusing to see people ignore Mark's point (Post 10) in the rush to display their brilliance by showing that they understand that Jack Morris was not the best pitcher of the '80s. Thank you, Captains Obvious all, but clearly Mark was not asserting that Morris was the best pitcher of the '80s. His point was that people were ignoring peak value.

What's obvious to me is that best of decade measures exactly that and nothing else. Of course it doesn't measure peak value, just as it doesn't measure career value. I found it a lot more interesting to look at who the best pitchers of the 80's actually were than to talk about peak value. This was not intended to be best peak value. And it's good every now and then to remember how good Steib was.