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Monday, December 01, 2008

Red Reporter: Slyde: Top 25 Non-MVP seasons by Reds players

Woo-eee...somebody should start a blog on Friggin’ Joe Morgan.

2. Joe Morgan - 1973 - 22 WSAB - 26 HR, 82 RBI, 67/15 SB/CS - .290/.406/.493, 154 OPS+ - 4th MVP

3. Joe Morgan - 1972 - 21 WSAB - 16 HR, 73 RBI, 58/17 SB/CS - .292/.417/.435, 149 OPS+ - 4th in MVP

4. Joe Morgan - 1974 - 21 WSAB - 22 HR, 67 RBI, 58/12 SB/CS - .293/.427/.494, 159 OPS+ - 8th in MVP

We all know about Morgan’s back-to-back MVP seasons in 1975-1976, but did you realize that he led the NL in WSAB in each season from 1972 to 1976?  Morgan lost the MVP to teammates in 1972 (Bench) and 1973 (Rose), and then finished 8th in 1974 despite the Reds winning 98 games (though they did finish 2nd to the Dodgers).  I think of all of the players from the Big Red Machine, he’s the one that I wish I had gotten to see in person.

Repoz Posted: December 01, 2008 at 06:25 PM | 16 comment(s)
  Related News: General, History, Cincinnati, Awards

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   1. GEB4000 Posted: December 01, 2008 at 07:54 PM (#3018390)
Little Joe was the best player in the seventies. He had to become the best hitter in the league before anybody would acknowledge that. I still will never understand how he lost the rookie of the year in 1965.
   2. Steve Treder Posted: December 01, 2008 at 08:11 PM (#3018399)
I still will never understand how he lost the rookie of the year in 1965.

Me too. That one was un-freaking-believable.
   3. AndrewJ Posted: December 01, 2008 at 08:15 PM (#3018402)
Eric Davis was phenomenal in 1987.
   4. Crispix Attacks Posted: December 01, 2008 at 08:21 PM (#3018405)
At least the voters in 1965 were consistent - Jim Lefebvre got more MVP votes than Morgan did too.

Both second basemen...similar fielding stats...same doubles and homers...slight edge for Morgan on batting average...slight edge for Morgan on power...big edge for Morgan on speed (steals, triples). And he always batted 1st or 2nd, Lefebvre

But the Dodgers won 97 games. The Astros lost 97 games. And Lefebvre was probably a more exciting story, the writers weren't as familiar with him and he was on the best team in the league.
   5. Mike Emeigh Posted: December 01, 2008 at 08:23 PM (#3018409)
I still will never understand how he lost the rookie of the year in 1965.


I understand it. Not to say that I agree with it, mind you, but I do understand it. It's as simple as being in a pennant race vs. performing for a ninth-place team about which the biggest story was the ballpark.

-- MWE
   6. Mike Emeigh Posted: December 01, 2008 at 08:24 PM (#3018411)
Jim Lefebvre got more MVP votes than Morgan did too.


And Frank Linzy, also a rookie who finished third in the ROY vote, got more MVP votes than both of them.

-- MWE
   7. Crispix Attacks Posted: December 01, 2008 at 08:27 PM (#3018412)
How can you say you "will never understand" how he lost the rookie of the year? That sounds pretentious. What you mean is that you don't think he deserved to win. It's pretty clear what the writers were paying attention to, and that most of us think they were paying attention to the wrong things.

It's not totally inexplicable. It's not like they voted for Gary Kroll or Phil Gagliano.

- ah, Mike Emeigh said this too.
   8. Dave Posted: December 01, 2008 at 08:32 PM (#3018417)
Jose Rijo's 1993 season should probably make this list, although it looks like they were limiting it to position players. 257 innings of 2.48 ERA (163 ERA+), leading the league in K's with 227, is mighty impressive.

Danny Jackson's 1988, Mario Soto's 1982-83, Tom Seaver's 1978 and Bronson Arroyo's 2006 could also make the list.
   9. jwb Posted: December 01, 2008 at 09:04 PM (#3018432)
Bucky Walters was on the list a couple of times.
   10. Swoboda is freedom Posted: December 01, 2008 at 09:29 PM (#3018442)
How can you say you "will never understand" how he lost the rookie of the year? That sounds pretentious. What you mean is that you don't think he deserved to win. It's pretty clear what the writers were paying attention to, and that most of us think they were paying attention to the wrong things.

But they weren't even paying attention to the normal wrong things. Even by the traditional "triple crown" stats that they look at Morgan hit .271/14/40 to .250/12/69. Morgan also had 20 steals (to 3) only 3 years after Wills won the MVP.
   11. Red Menace Posted: December 01, 2008 at 09:34 PM (#3018444)
The list was straight Win Shares Above Bench.
   12. GEB4000 Posted: December 01, 2008 at 09:38 PM (#3018446)
Taking a closer look, I think it was hitting in the clutch that won it for Lefebvre. Joe .227 and Lefebvre .276. OPS+ 92 and 119, respectively.
   13. Crispix Attacks Posted: December 01, 2008 at 09:51 PM (#3018452)
Even by the traditional "triple crown" stats that they look at Morgan hit .271/14/40 to .250/12/69.

Only 21 points of average in Morgan's favor, versus almost twice as many RBIs for Lefebvre? Looks like they made a good choice, going by the traditional wrong things.
   14. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: December 01, 2008 at 10:21 PM (#3018462)
Lefebvre drove in 69 runs for the 97-win pennant winners in Los Angeles, while Morgan drove in 40 runs for an expansion team in Houston in its 4th year once again winning less than 70 games, playing in a brand new stadium curiosity.
   15. Dave Posted: December 01, 2008 at 10:32 PM (#3018464)
Bucky Walters was on the list a couple of times.

Oh, you're right, I just scanned through it quickly and missed that. Also John Franco was on there once.

The list was straight Win Shares Above Bench.

I had never heard of that metric before today, and just looked it up. I've never been a big fan of Win Shares-related stats for various reasons (for example, I had a strong feeling that Sean Casey season was one in which the Reds vastly exceeded their Pythagorean Wins, and I was right). But is there somewhere that posts historical WSAB?

Or if not, does anyone have the WSAB for the seasons I mentioned above, particularly the Rijo season? I really have a hard time believing that a 136 OPS+ from a first baseman could be more valuable than a 163 ERA+ from a starting pitcher.
   16. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: December 01, 2008 at 10:40 PM (#3018470)
I had never heard of that metric before today, and just looked it up. I've never been a big fan of Win Shares-related stats for various reasons (for example, I had a strong feeling that Sean Casey season was one in which the Reds vastly exceeded their Pythagorean Wins, and I was right). But is there somewhere that posts historical WSAB?


I assumed from that expression that there was just a Johnny-derived baseline that all great Reds seasons were measured against.
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