Kevin,

That isn't unprecedented (firing before hiring). Scouts' contracts come up at the end of the year (October), and really other than Juco guys, there's not a lot to see until January.

If you've decided that you want significant turnover in your scouting department - and this happens more than a lot of people realise - you don't renew the contracts in October, which is effectively firing the current crop, and then spend Oct-Dec interviewing and preparing the next crew to go hard Jan 15.

My 2 cents. Oh, and Griffin doesn't know that many of the scouts - he came up through the Expos, and the PR side. It's Elliot who is the scout's friend. And I say that with great respect for Bob - no one promotes amateur baseball in this country like him, and he still coaches at least one minor team (15 or 16 year olds).

My axe isn't with Law alone. See BL's post #58. The internet analogy is quite apt here. Back in the eighties, it was biotech. The street got burned there too.

I won't dispute the aptness of the internet analogy in response to my original analogy. All I'm saying is that there is *some* level of preparation in both situations. More than zero, and while I think the FA moves to his new position with much more than zero preparation, I think Law moved in with a non-irrelevant amount, himself.

Whether or not hiring Law was a good, well-conceived, or justifiable move is outside the scope of the argument I made. Worthy topics, yes.

So, on to the response to it:

The key word in that analogy is "experience". Writing anything you want to write about with impunity is no kind of preparation for being the asst. GM under conditions where your decisions, philosophies and prejudices will actually be tested under the spotlight of competition, and where you are being opposed by others who might not share your philosophies but nevertheless are beating your ass.

I disagree here. Assuming I have at least a vague understanding of what his responsibilities were, there were three functions in Law's job. Conceiving (or adapting other's concepts) stratagems for evaluating players, testing those stratagems, and lobbying for the application of those stratagems within the organization.

Certainly, BP gave him no preparation for the third function. It just as certainly gave him preparation for the first, and to a lesser degree the second.

And maybe, just maybe, the job at ESPN is actually BETTER!

Let's change "better" to "more challenging".

Tell me how writing a sports column for ESPN is a more challenging job than advising the GM of the Toronto Blue Jays on personnel/operations decisions?

OK, it might not be "more challenging" but it might be better. Fine. It's a better job that requires less skill.

You do realize that the internet bubble did help fund many companies that are quite valuable nowawdays. A lot of companies failed because they weren't real businesses, but the internet has enabled many companies to create real business that generate big financial returns.


Yes, that is the point. We are far enough away where we can judge whether we have an amazon.com or underweargnomes.com when investing. There was lots of wasted dollars, tons of churn, and the bubble did burst devaluing lots of investment. There were more unwise decisions in that sector.

And yes, that happens from time to time. I remember in the late 90s reading a comparison of internet investments to radio investments. People did the same thing in the early part of the century to anybody dealing with radio, tube manufacturers, content producers etc. RCA was about the only company where you could get equal value from the initial investment post-bubble almost 60 years later.

And the radio boom was nice. We got tons of production companies, and some good tube manufacturers. We also got lots of overfunded dogs. The internet boom was nice; we got some nice companies. We also had lots of overfunded dogs. And the sabe revolution should be nice. You should see capable persons finding good jobs. But everyone that styles themselves a saberist should not be in line for some new capital.

My point, which I thought i articulated at the end of that piece, is that the sabe movement, including the "call to war" ya da should be old enough where we can evaluate the good from the bad. The AOL to internet equivalent has happened to---its this website. You have tons of people that think they are net.god or sabe.00001337 that are just running to the movement.

I am just curious about seperating junk from value. I'm not hating on Keith Law. I am trying to evaluate his performance because that's what we do with all baseball performance around here. If he's responsible for something good, I'll give him credit. If he's responsible for something bad, I'll say it. Right now, I don't have much of anything to make that determination.

What this thread badly needs is Burley. I'll be reading battersbox over the next couple of days to see if he has a take.

Or maybe this has nothing to do with the situation at the Blue Jays. I don't know a thing, but people change jobs/careers for all kinds of reasons, and trying to guess why when you don't have any real information is kind of pointless.

Ding ding! We have a winner! Hal, tell him what he's won!

Some here have changed jobs like quitting a big law firm to *not do law*. That may or may not be a "step down". Or some owned their own research company (the big dream!) but just decided working for a govt contractor offered something different.

I don't know Keith, I've never interacted with Keith (except when he sued me) and I think even intimating that he changed jobs because he failed or he couldn't hack it is beneath people that should be allowed to post on this site.

And maybe, just maybe, the job at ESPN is actually BETTER!



Let's change "better" to "more challenging".

Tell me how writing a sports column for ESPN is a more challenging job than advising the GM of the Toronto Blue Jays on personnel/operations decisions?

OK, it might not be "more challenging" but it might be better. Fine. It's a better job that requires less skill.

Come on, kevin. "Better" doesn't have to mean "more challenging". It likely means better hours, better pay, better schedule, better location, better accomodation to family, etc. There are lots of factors that go into changing jobs for anyone. it is certainly possible that Law sucked at his Blue Jays job and is running back to something in which he'd previously had success. A lot of other things are possible, too. It isn't really fair to conclude that because he left the position he must have known he was bad at it. FWIW, I know lots of people who suck at their jobs and yet stay (most are, of course, oblivious to their suckitude).

It just as certainly gave him preparation for the first, and to a lesser degree the second.

Exactly how?

Law could have created spreadsheet after spreadsheet saying thay Omar Moreno was the greatest power hitter of all time, what the fallout from that? A few nasty emails questing his sanity?

But if Keith Law trades for Omar Moreno and bats him fourth, he will get an unequivacable answer to his theory in no time.

It's easy to armchair quarteback, quite another to crouch behind the line and take the snaps.

Let's change "better" to "more challenging".

No. Let's not. Because they're not the same thing. If some wanted to pay me and give me better benefits, all while requiring less work, I would consider that job to be "better", especially if I had a family to think about. We know next to nothing about the relative merits of each job, yet you're not only willing to pass judgment on which job is more desirable, but also why he left one for the other. Then you're surprised when someone thinks you have an axe to grind. It's really quite fascinating.

and lobbying for the application of those stratagems within the organization.

And, I should say, there is a non-zero chance that this wasn't even actually part of his job. It's not outside the realm of possibility that Keith was expected to come up with whatever he was tasked with doing and then giving it straight to someone else, for them to make a decision on. To continue my FA example, he could have been the equivalent of a model wonk (there's a term for them that I'm sure AZ also knows, but I'm just blanking on it at the moment.) They aren't expected to be good at lobbying for the adoption of their models. They're expected to put together good models.

I'm not saying I know the first thing about Keith as a person, about Keith's responsibilities with Toronto, or about why he left. To reiterate, all I'm saying is that the job at BP did not provide zero preparation for the job with Toronto.

Backup. Keith Law sued Chris Dial? WTF? I hate never being on the inside.

I know lots of people who suck at their jobs and yet stay (most are, of course, oblivious to their suckitude).


The Jim tells me I suck at my job, so I guess you can't count me as oblivious even when I stay.

I wonder if alerting me to that fact is "beneath people that should be allowed to post on this site."

model wonk

Quant jock.

Backup. Keith Law sued Chris Dial? WTF? I hate never being on the inside.

Prospectus sent Primer a cease and decist letter a long time ago, and I believe Keith was the signatory. I wasn't aware that an actual lawsuit had been filed, just threatened. Unless of course Dial is talking about something else.

My axe isn't with Law alone.

I interpreted this as dislike. You have to have an axe with Law first to say that your axe isn't with him alone.

Law could have created spreadsheet after spreadsheet saying thay Omar Moreno was the greatest power hitter of all time, what the fallout from that?

Who's talking about fallout?

If a guy moves from a job where he creates spreadsheet after spreadsheet divining values for Omar Moreno (and other MLB players), and then moves into another job where he creates spreadsheets divining values for Omar Moreno (and other MLB players), then regardless of the context or consequences of how or even if those spreadsheets are used by anyone, the first job provides preparation for the second job.

I'm not understanding the disconnect here.

Prospectus sent Primer a cease and decist letter a long time ago, and I believe Keith was the signatory. I wasn't aware that an actual lawsuit had been filed, just threatened. Unless of course Dial is talking about something else.

The C&D;as I recall was that the name "Baseball Primer" was confusingly similar to "Baseball Prospectus" and diluted and potentially infringed their mark.

Yeah, bunyon. Law sued Dial over infringement of proprietary Tom Cruise quotes (see post 100, then again in 105. Dial can never make enough Tom Cruise quotes).

Quant jock.

Thank you. Quant is what I was looking for.

Oh, boring. I thought Dial ran over Law's dog or something.

BL, based on how much we all post on this site, I'd say we all suck at our jobs.

Except for meatwad, who I believe is paid to post here.

I interpreted this as dislike. You have to have an axe with Law first to say that your axe isn't with him alone.

Well, you interpreted wrong. Pleae read again, in the context of the substance of my other posts, to better understand what that means.

Prospectus sent Primer a cease and decist letter a long time ago, and I believe Keith was the signatory. I wasn't aware that an actual lawsuit had been filed, just threatened. Unless of course Dial is talking about something else.

What is this, retro night? The Schoenfield Thread and the Belated Valentine Thread coming up at the same time.

Not to go into too much detail, but I never got the impression that Keith was the impetus there.

BL and anyone else who's interested, there's a battersbox thread up about this here. Tango's there, but no Burley.

Maybe Keith's dream job is to write for ESPN , not to be the Special Assistant to the GM in Toronto.

Like all of us, maybe he just loves Bristol.

Actually, that having been said, I have no idea about how often (if at all) ESPN.com writers are expected to visit Bristol. I've never seen Neyer wandering the halls.

But certainly the expected career span of a baseball columnist must exceed the life of a baseball front office type - once the Riccardi administration goes, I would expect a "Special Assistant" to be jobless.

I think Tango's point about being underpaid holds some water.

But still, GMs are paid very well and it might be worth it to hang on if he thought he could snag one of those sometime in the future.

I've never seen Neyer wandering the halls.

That's because the flannel is camouflage.

But still, GMs are paid very well and it might be worth it to hang on if he thought he could snag one of those sometime in the future.

What if he didn't like it? What if he really liked writing?

And Tom Cruise quotes? Are you high now?

Dial is trying to hijack this thread to talk about Bonds.

Wow. I didn't even see 94 on the first go around. That's blatant and persistent.

It would be interesting to have Neyer as a Cheshire Cat. Or Milhouse in that lemonade episode.

Man, I'm w/Dial, Shredder, Zim and others on this one. Some people are reading way too much into the job change. Who knows why he changed jobs? He was only the "Special assistant" to the GM, which I'm sure is a pretty low-paying, high-intensity gig, much like being a staff lawyer at the White House. Those guys burn out quick, despite the perks, why should we be surprised that Law decided to move on, get a bigger and better writing gig than he had before (recall, his career began in writing)? Maybe he wants to be a professional sports writer? Maybe he wants to be on TV?

TVe, perhaps Neyer could sneak into the background of BBTN, and when Kruk inevitably says something stupid, he can burst forth like a ninja, chop him on the back of the neck, and take his chair.

And Tom Cruise quotes? Are you high now?

Ding ding! We have a winner! Hal, tell him what he's won!

You must have been too busy staring at Demi Moore's enhanced cleavage to pay attention to the dialogue.

Perhaps ESPN made Law an offer he couldn't refuse.

BL: Let me put my position this way.

I agree w/you w/regard to Jim's unfortunate mention of you and your work. It shouldn't have happened. I find this somewhat related. Law posts here occasionally. We know nothing about his job description, nor do we know what anyone thought of his work, nor do we know the reasons why he moved from one job to the next. I find, therefore, the assumptions associated w/trashing his performance for the Blue Jays utterly unfounded and inappropriate. Additionally, basing much on perceptions from his writings ("he seemed like a jerk"; perceptions btw I do not share - I always thought he seemed decent enough) about his job performance or his qualifications for the job seems a stretch.

You must have been too busy staring at Demi Moore's enhanced cleavage to pay attention to the dialogue.

Did you think that line was original in that movie? Is that what threw you?

Additionally, basing much on perceptions from his writings ("he seemed like a jerk"; perceptions btw I do not share - I always thought he seemed decent enough) about his job performance or his qualifications for the job seems a stretch.

Fair enough. I basically have two thoughts on Keith Law: 1) on a personal level, I found him to be a bit of an ass during our exchanges on email and Usenet; and 2) putting that aside, he wasn't the most original/creative/insightful/talented/whatever writer on the old BP staff. Obviously the first point is entirely irrelevent, but the second point does have some bearing on measuring the effect of performance analysis on baseball decisionmakers.

In my opinion, he wasn't the best representative from the sabremetric community. If that is an accurate assessment, then it's not fair to base his performance (as reflected by the Jays transactions) as evidence for or against the use of sabremetrics in the front office.

BL: Let me put my position this way.

I agree w/you w/regard to Jim's unfortunate mention of you and your work. It shouldn't have happened. I find this somewhat related. Law posts here occasionally. We know nothing about his job description, nor do we know what anyone thought of his work, nor do we know the reasons why he moved from one job to the next. I find, therefore, the assumptions associated w/trashing his performance for the Blue Jays utterly unfounded and inappropriate. Additionally, basing much on perceptions from his writings ("he seemed like a jerk"; perceptions btw I do not share - I always thought he seemed decent enough) about his job performance or his qualifications for the job seems a stretch.

Where have I trashed Keith Law?

I had no idea that you were reprimanding me. I came in and I asked if we knew enough to judge his tenure apart from judging JP's tenure. From all the responses that were made I concluded and expressly stated that we don't have enough information.

I never read the man at all, and don't have anything to offer on his qualifications. I have averred and I think its totally reasonable to aver that its late enough into the game that we can start to evaluate what contributions the sabe-revolution had on baseball teams.

I mildly defended those that averred another person would have been better by pointing out that it doesn't look like that the finding of a sabe in many early cases didn't look like it was a search for the most qualified candidate.

By any stretch, he is more qualified than me, and I said as much. I said a person that admits he is not prolific is more qualified than me.

To my knowledge, I have never, ever, once said anybody sucked at their job. The closest you will find is me saying that Hee Seop Choi was not getting playing time because of ability, not merit. Heck, Beane, who I am associated with trashing, I've said is an above average GM.

But this is a baseball site. I imagine front office people, newspaper people, and players read it too. If there is a reason to be critical about baseball performance, I think its reasonable to be critical about that performance. If that time appears, I don't think its unreasonable to post about that performance.

Now, if Dial, Szym, Shredder and you were seeking to chastise me for the comments I did make, I missed it.

Did you think that line was original in that movie? Is that what threw you?

No, I just know that you're incapable or originality, so I just connected the dots.

Maybe he wants to be on TV?

Heh. Keith is way too honest for TV. I wish him luck, though, in doing the broadcasting stuff... he'll be a lot of fun and he's a good communicator, I've always felt. Whenever I talked to him, I always came away with a rather startling impression of how much he was learning. Made me jealous. :)

Almost from day one, there were people in Toronto who wanted his head on a platter. It must have been a lot of pressure to work under.

BL: I didn't mean I thought you were trashing him, I just didn't understand the defense of those that were.

All the stuff we're engaging in is utter speculation. We don't even know exactly why the guy was hired. Even 6-4-3's post immediately above makes assumptions that we just don't know to be true. Who cares if he wasn't the most "original" sabermetrician, whatever that means? What would that (being original) have to do w/the special assistant job?

My point, again, is simply that all this is based entirely on speculation. There are no facts to grab on to, except

(1) He was hired as "Special Assistant to the GM". I'm not even aware whether there's only 1 such person. AFAIK, we have no idea what that position pays. Like I said, by its title it sounds like a hard work/low compensation job that young men take b/c they love the thing they're doing.

(2) He worked in that job for a while.
(3) He left that job for a new one; a job superior in its description to a job he held prior to taking the job in point 1.

Why that would cause some to speculate that he failed is beyond me.

Man, I'm w/Dial, Shredder, Zim and others on this one. Some people are reading way too much into the job change. Who knows why he changed jobs? He was only the "Special assistant" to the GM, which I'm sure is a pretty low-paying, high-intensity gig, much like being a staff lawyer at the White House. Those guys burn out quick, despite the perks, why should we be surprised that Law decided to move on, get a bigger and better writing gig than he had before (recall, his career began in writing)? Maybe he wants to be a professional sports writer? Maybe he wants to be on TV


Kevin's self professed expertise in matters notwithstanding, BP's "conversation with an executive" in this year's book pointed out what the salaries are - This was a GM who wasn't willing to spend $90,000 on a competent executive because of baseball's front office salary structure. Hell, a guy right out of school today can earn that much on Wall Street - and then you go into banking, where the money is bigger. I'd bet even money that Peter Gammons gets paid more than most Ass GM's in Major League Baseball, to say nothing of "Special Assistant of the GM's" - Law clearly isn't going to get paid "that" much - but who knows - this could be just about the money. The people in a front office who make the money are the GM's, and maybe a high powered consultant - it ain't exactly the NFL or the NBA in terms of coaching/front office money.

For what its worth, There could be a 101 reasons for moving (family,work,money) etc etc - it seems fairly harsh to judge that he failed, and that's why he's leaving.

I'm not even aware whether there's only 1 such person.

Normally, there is more than one such person. Pittsburgh has five. Toronto has one other one as well.

Why that would cause some to speculate that he failed is beyond me.

Well, because it *seems* as though writing for ESPN.com is a step down from working for a major league team in what sounds like a very important job, and therefore it's logical to speculate on why someone would take that (apparent) step down. I think the speculation arises mostly from a likely misunderstanding of what the job actually is.

-- MWE

Hell, a guy right out of school today can earn that much on Wall Street - and then you go into banking, where the money is bigger.

And Keith has an MBA from Carnegie Mellon, one of the 10 or 20 best B-schools in the U.S. All of which, of course, is even less relevant at ESPN than it is in MLB, but I think it does underline the fact that this guy didn't fall off the sabermetric turnip truck.

BTW: I talked to a friend of mine earlier this year, who has a job with a major league team, and he confirmed the point that the "unnamed" executive made.

-- MWE

And Keith has an MBA from Carnegie Mellon, one of the 10 or 20 best B-schools in the U.S. All of which, of course, is even less relevant at ESPN than it is in MLB, but I think it does underline the fact that this guy didn't fall off the sabermetric turnip truck.


Hey, I have an undergrad from CMU (the same School, fwiw) - think Toronto's going to give me a shot ? ;)

But yeah - he's not exactly starved for options - if anything, it's a nice resume filler applying for that job at Goldamn Sachs or ESPN.

And for all that BL is waiting with bated breath for me to enter the conversation (thanks man, the check's in the mail), I don't have anything particularly interesting or relevant to say, and any Kremlinology I might engage in at 1 Blue Jays Way would be woefully inadequate to the task of evaluating anything.

BTW: I talked to a friend of mine earlier this year, who has a job with a major league team, and he confirmed the point that the "unnamed" executive made.

-- MWE


Mike - is this the bit about the salary ?

From what I know of Keith, I'm guessing that what happened was that he wanted the Jays to pick up a hot young prospect out of Free Country USA called Homestar Runner. When JP refused, undoubtedly discouraged by the prospect's lack of visible arms, that was the last straw.

For anyone who knows Keith, I think I speak for all of us in awarding this an Instant Classic Primey.

I just didn't understand the defense of those that were.

I didn't perceive myself as defending anyone in this thread.

But I went back and read it.

Here is the dynamic as I see it. Andy asks if anyone has any inside information.

Kevin ( upon re-reading pretty mildly) speculates that he didn't know what he was doing.

Then there were a few other conversations about who would have been an apt candidate at the time, etc.

For the most part, I thought I was going with the flow and was more interested in the points made by you and Jeff K.

But then it does look like the volume got turned up on Kevin and he had to defend a speculation as an assertion. I'm well aware of that dynamic.

I thought he qualified pretty well that he didn't know law from Adam, and was explaining how his sepeculation could be valid. And then he actually rates the administration as mediocre, which I think is a pretty fair rating of the administration as a whole.

Now, I've got no desire to tell the man he sucks. I didn't really join that conversation at all because it doesn't have a real end game. Until I can find out with more specificity what he did, I can't rate him at all. The only person that I know that has even an inkling about it is Burley. Paul D. has provided probably the most information on that subject in this thread, but its not enough for me to opine.

I didn't think Shredder challenging the assertion was a big deal. I don't think you disagreeing with the assertion is a big deal. I'm nuetral on Szym. I flat out believe that Dial is spanning multiple threads looking for a fight with a member of the Union or mgl, whoever bites first.

But I didn't think I went after any point on his acumen. I am very interested on a spin-free view on how the sabes have contributed to actual baseball. Its likely I'll form many different hypotheses on that subject.

BTW: I talked to a friend of mine earlier this year, who has a job with a major league team, and he confirmed the point that the "unnamed" executive made.

I'm a bit lost on this one to Mike. Is this in reference to your post #93 on the duties of the Special Asst. to GM?

Only part of the article is readable, but this does help give a rundown as to what Keith's actual duties were with the team.

http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/content/aug2004/bs20040824_9874_bs049_0.htm

Not only does he have an MBA from CMU, he did his undergrad work at Harvard and worked for a very well -known financial consulting firm.

Actually, BusinessWeek doesn't have CMU MBA ranked in the top 25. Not that that is the be-all, end-all by any stretch.

UT, however, is 12.

I didn't think Shredder challenging the assertion was a big deal. I don't think you disagreeing with the assertion is a big deal. I'm nuetral on Szym. I flat out believe that Dial is spanning multiple threads looking for a fight with a member of the Union or mgl, whoever bites first.

To that, I cannot speak. I haven't read anything else today, so am unaware of Dial's prowling.

I flat out believe that Dial is spanning multiple threads looking for a fight with a member of the Union or mgl, whoever bites first.

I appreciate your assigning of motive, your MO, but no, I'm just calling them like I see them.

Sorry there isn't some inherent evilness to my posting.

Actually, BusinessWeek doesn't have CMU MBA ranked in the top 25. Not that that is the be-all, end-all by any stretch.

Huh?

This link puts them at #15. That's MBA programs, not undergrad... am I looking at the wrong data?

This link, sorry.

Even 6-4-3's post immediately above makes assumptions that we just don't know to be true. Who cares if he wasn't the most "original" sabermetrician, whatever that means? What would that (being original) have to do w/the special assistant job?

Just for the sake of clarifying what I meant by "original," I was referring to the types of contributions that he made while with BP. To the best of my recollection, most of his commentary was rather formulaic and he seldom (if ever) introduced new ideas or methods--he just applied the work of his colleagues (Wolverton, Davenport, Woolner, Voros) to make self-evident points. Furthermore, among the "commentators" at BP, I found the quality of his writing to be inferior to that of Sheehan or Kahrl (or Neyer, for that matter, to extend the scope outside BP for a moment).

Even 6-4-3's post immediately above makes assumptions that we just don't know to be true. Who cares if he wasn't the most "original" sabermetrician, whatever that means? What would that (being original) have to do w/the special assistant job?

Just for the sake of clarifying what I meant by "original," I was referring to the types of contributions that he made while with BP. To the best of my recollection, most of his commentary was rather formulaic and he seldom (if ever) introduced new ideas or methods--he just applied the work of his colleagues (Wolverton, Davenport, Woolner, Voros) to make self-evident points. Furthermore, among the "commentators" at BP, I found the quality of his writing to be inferior to that of Sheehan or Kahrl (or Neyer, for that matter, to extend the scope outside BP for a moment).

Get your links straight!

Only part of the article is readable, but this does help give a rundown as to what Keith's actual duties were with the team.

http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/content/aug2004/bs20040824_9874_bs049_0.htm

Not only does he have an MBA from CMU, he did his undergrad work at Harvard and worked for a very well -known financial consulting firm.

The article is helpful, although I can't read past the lunch time. From that description it would seem that his duties are/were pretty analogous to an early level associate at a big law firm. Advising, acting as a face for the org, providing input, etc.

As such, it would seem that there is nothing to rate. The only criteria would be whether JP thought he did a good job.

If he didn't get any growth beyond that beginning, I would leave too. After a few years, that would probably be pretty repititive. And if JP did like him, he would probably tell him it was time for him to fly on his own.

That also corroberates a lot of Emeigh's suppositions. It sounds like a decent break-in gig, but it doesn't look like there would be that much movement, a grass-ceiling if you will. A great chance to make some contacts, and learn the business, but limits on getting responsibility inside the business. If you wanted to move, you'd probably have to move to a player-dev or scouting job in most of the org structures that I know anything about.

Kevin's self professed expertise in matters notwithstanding, BP's "conversation with an executive" in this year's book pointed out what the salaries are - This was a GM who wasn't willing to spend $90,000 on a competent executive because of baseball's front office salary structure

You're missing the obvious point that, now that the Jays are spending more, Law has chosen to leave.

Why now? The team is doing well, the payroll has been expanded, things are looking up. If if was about the money, couldn't he interview with another team for a position that paid a little more? I doubt ESPN is going to pay him very well. They just dumped Sickels and forced the rest of the writers, Gammons included, to earn their keep in Insider.

I surmise that he thought there wasn't a very promising future for him in baseball. ESPN is never going to remotely approach the salary of a baseball GM. He could write there 100 years and he isn't going to make 250K a year.

And if he just wants to be a writer, then why did he take the job in the first place? That's not a stepping stone to ESPN. And he's kind of young to be switching careers. Being 32 is a baby. He also could have seen what happened to DePo and wants none of it. I wouldn't blame him for that.

Get your links straight!

Anyone who has watched me in action these last couple of years knows I am never, ever straight on the links. Long, sometimes, but never straight. I'd be better off throwing the damn thing for 18 holes.

a grass-ceiling if you will

A fake-grass ceiling. This is Toronto we're talking about.

Anyone who has watched me in action these last couple of years knows I am never, ever straight on the links. Long, sometimes, but never straight. I'd be better off throwing the damn thing for 18 holes.

I'll drive them long and straight for you. Just take care of that damn putting at the end.

This link puts them at #15. That's MBA programs, not undergrad... am I looking at the wrong data?

Somewhat. You're looking at 2004. I was looking at 2005 data.

if was about the money, couldn't he interview with another team for a position that paid a little more?

As I understood it, the "it's about the money" point was not to claim he left FOR more money, but to counter the notion that he was leaving big money behind. He may have left for any of the reasons you mention, and many others, but the point is, as the article shows and as BL just summarized, he was leaving some incredible gig behind, but a grinder-type position.

I surmise that he thought there wasn't a very promising future for him in baseball.

Why do you need to surmise anything?

Oh, no, I'm a moron. I'm looking at Executive MBA programs. You know, I even wondered how Emory's weekend MBA was the #6 MBA in the country.

No grad school for me.

that's "he was NOT"

This is Primer, man. Surmising comes as naturally to us as breathing.

Oh, no, I'm a moron.

Think of how much smarter you'd seem if you enrolled in Emory's weekend MBA program!

It would also leave the weekdays free for drinkin', fightin', cussin' and whorin', which is always a plus (if a little tough to do on Tuesday nights).

I know we just did the voting for the next BWeek rankings. My professors were all up on my jock about voting for McCombs. Supposedly there is some higher weight placed on "non-traditional students."

And that will conclude a post that literally nobody cares about.

Supposedly there is some higher weight placed on "non-traditional students."

Like Democrats?

I know we just did the voting for the next BWeek rankings. My professors were all up on my jock about voting for McCombs. Supposedly there is some higher weight placed on "non-traditional students."

Vote for Backlasher University, a division of the Union Colleges. Its a highly underrated program.

Think of how much smarter you'd seem if you enrolled in Emory's weekend MBA program!

Ha! Actually, now that I've decided to go the Finance route, I have two friends who went through Harvard MBA who are offering to hook me up with internships, jobs, and a somewhat inside track to Harvard MBA.

If you don't go to a top 20 MBA, you really might as well not go. But if you go to Harvard, with those connections, that's like a license to print money.

Why do you need to surmise anything?

Because I like to think about things and use my head for something other than a hatrack. You should try it sometimes.

Chris, take a pill, will you? Every one of your posts in this thread is a lame attempt to draw me into a flame war with you. Just because Rob Base has been pounding you like a veal scallopini over in the Mets blog is no excuse for you to bring your unrequited hostility to every thread I decide to participate in. You even try to make some kind of tortured analogy between Law and Bonds, of all people, just to see if I would bite.

Cool it, for god's sake. Read the posts and try to participate with something other than regurgitated vinegar.

Like Democrats?

At UT? Hell, no. I was in a class today and the professor asked "How many of you are Democrats?" About 90% of the hands went up. "How many are Republicans?" About 8%. "Independents?" Me and one other guy.

Vote for Backlasher University, a division of the Union Colleges. Its a highly underrated program.

Freshman class schedule:

Sophistry and how to combat it
billy beane for pope, #######
Line-by-line argumentation

regurgitated vinegar

Must...not...make...joke...TOS...violation...

Perhaps Law just prefers writing over working in a front office. Why does there always have to be a diabolical reason.

I am very interested on a spin-free view on how the sabes have contributed to actual baseball.

Baseball: +3% - could be 5% if they could improve their acceptance by mainstream and old school insiders
Fandom: +40% - or even close to 50%

On a lighter note, the Yankees blew a 5-run lead and Farnsworth coughed up a blown save and accompanying L to the Tigers tonight.

Must...not...make...joke...TOS...violation...

There are tons of good jokes to be had:

Bonds broke the Law

Law's MBA won't help analyze Bonds

etc.

But seriously, you don't think Kevin started something or was baiting do you?

I understand disagreeing. I understand JC's reluctance to talk about a Primate and their job performance. But it doesn't look like he made any inference that was really outlandish, nor did he jump on somebody's jock. He just argued a point.

I believe the SCTAP number is closer to 4.59.

Because I like to think about things and use my head for something other than a hatrack.

But you aren't doing that. You said earlier that people exchanging a few emails with him don't really know him.

So why would you begin to think you can surmise anything? You aren't using your head for anything there. You're just being,ell, stupid. You don't know why Keith changed jobs and you cannot make any educated guess *because you don't know anything about the situation that Keith is in nor Keith and what he values*.

Of course, you don't seem to ever understand the limits of your knowledge, so I guess you are right - I shouldn't try to convice you to stop - heck, even JC couldn't. Maybe JC's head is a hatrack on this as well.

In addition, I happen to think it is none of my business why Keith changed jobs. But I see why you think it is yours.

And, since you are using your head as a suppository, as opposed to a hatrack, the analogy isn't between Law and Bonds but between people who think they know Law without ever meeting him and people that think they know Bonds without ever meeting him, and hte irony of you chastising people who think they know Law without ever meeting him.

And if you think someone calling someone else fat is "pounding someone like veal scallopini", then you have the mind of an 8-yo. That you support that type of interaction points up your maturity level. But dig in.

Isn't Bill James a special assistant to the GM too?

Nope, looked it up, James is a Senior Baseball Operations Advisor.

And if you think someone calling someone else fat is "pounding someone like veal scallopini", then you have the mind of an 8-yo. That you support that type of interaction points up your maturity level. But dig in.

Chris, I like you. I could live with an insult free site, etc. etc. But Base is a performance artist when it comes to insults. If you are still in his cross-hairs, he is fukking lethal.

Nope, looked it up, James is a Senior Baseball Operations Advisor.

Which is likely the same thing, or close to it. One downside to the corporatization of baseball is that they've taken on the fad of giving obscure, impressive-sounding titles to people with the same position.

But seriously, you don't think Kevin started something or was baiting do you?

You're talking to me? I neither know nor care.

You said earlier that people exchanging a few emails with him don't really know him.

Are you suggesting the opposite? That exchanging a few emails with someone is a great way to really get inside their heds and have a parofound understanding of where they are coming from?

In addition, I happen to think it is none of my business why Keith changed jobs.

And yet you do seem to think it your businees to tell me what I should think about and what I shouldn't. Why don't you just send me a list, Chris, so I won't offend you anymore? Just tell me the things it's OK to surmise about and the things it isn't OK to.

And if you think someone calling someone else fat is "pounding someone like veal scallopini", then you have the mind of an 8-yo. That you support that type of interaction points up your maturity level. But dig in.

What goes on between you and Base is between you and Base. Just don't bring it over here and try to start fights with me because you are angry with Base, which is what you are clearly trying to do.

the fad

This should read "the practice".

Chris, I like you. I could live with an insult free site, etc. etc. But Base is a performance artist when it comes to insults. If you are still in his cross-hairs, he is fukking lethal.

Yes, that calling me fatso is brilliant.

He's Union all the way, I guess.

Here's another thing: Keith Law hasn't published anything public in what, three or four years? Maybe, just maybe, he enjoys writing and is ready to get back to that. Maybe he likes getting feedback from readers and being part of a larger community.

You might be right, Blackhawk. As BL stated so eloquently, I just think the timing is a bit odd and the choice of switching a bit odd. But it's just that - speculating. I don't think I should have to defend to the death every speculation that comes to mind.

You're talking to me?

Kafka, you are dangerously close to plagiarizing Taxi Driver here. Be more careful, wouldja?

Oh, and btw, A Few Good Men came before Demi Moore's enhancedness, and Dial's line about winning a prize isn't identical to the line about a prize in that movie, which isn't original to that movie, anyway.

Vote for Backlasher University, a division of the Union Colleges. Its a highly underrated program.

If you can get me a Masters in Econ real cheap, on the weekends so I can actually make money while going to school, and actually teach me the subject, I'll vote for you.

Let this be a lesson to younger Primates, don't take my approach to school or you'll windup in a soul killing job that gives you enough money to live on but not much else.

I have no dog in anything Base/Dial related (though I will say that I'd about 1000% rather have drinks with Dial than Base,) but really, all you have to do to quiet down Dial is remind him that he went to the second best UT.

He's Union all the way, I guess.

I don't even think Base likes me, you would have to ask him.

Yes, that calling me fatso is brilliant.

No, his ability to think quick, improvise off a central theme, and write with eloquence and elegance is respected by me.

The fact that he manifests those skills in insults is not necessarily a virtue. So its not like, "I don't care if he TOSes, I just like to watch him post." but a person should know his limitations. I would not be scared to get in a war with Base, but I'd respect his ability. I would not be scared to get in a war with mgl on analysis, but I respect his ability. I would not be scared to get into a war of logic with JC, but I respect his ability. I would not be scared to challenge Srul on the law, but I know his ability. I would not be scared to go after Nieporent in IP, but I've never seen him wrong. Mug-Geography; Burley-Jays; Field-History, Andy-sociology etc. etc.

You can keep picking fights with people on their area of strength if you desire. I'm just offering a friendly warning.

And yet you do seem to think it your businees to tell me what I should think about and what I shouldn't.

I *didn't* tell you what to think or not to think. I asked you *why* you had to surmise anything. And then I asked you why you thought you could intelligently surmise anything.

Just don't bring it over here and try to start fights with me because you are angry with Base, which is what you are clearly trying to do.

Here's a free lesson in maturity, kevina, sticks and stones can break my bones but words will never harm me.

I'm not angry with Base. He acts about 8, and gets other 8-yo to LOL (to quote JC) along with. He gets you to call simplistic remarks like "fatsO' like I'm taking a pounding and BL describes that type of insult as "fulkking lethal". Hey, you guys can think that, but it's not very clever in my book. And it doesn't hurt my feelings one bit because unlike you guys (evidently, from your concern over my feelings about Base) I don't generate my self-esteem from someone calling me childish names over the internet. BL seems to worry about it the most, then kevin, and well, I don't think JC cares too much what people call him.

You guys don't seem to know what emotional toughness is, but you can't reach me on a personal level by using names like fatso or four-eyes (I wear glasses if you want to use that, Rob), or calling me a weakling, or a bad hitter or because I don't have a PhD (but please, mock people who mention SAT scores).

You should be ashamed of yourselves, but I understand why you aren't - you're you.