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I think Darren will buy this story. Sounds very reasonable to me.
And if he'd only said "flaxseed oil"----but he didn't want to run into copyright infringement problems on that one....
EDIT: me, too. Sorry bout that, flournoy.
Roger: "Swear."
"Cross your heart and hope to die?"
"Cross my heart and hope to die."
"Stick a needle in your eye?"
"Stick a needle in my eye."
"Jam a dagger in your thigh?"
"Jam a dagger in my thigh."
"Eat a horse manure pie?"
"Yup!"
He still would of been named.
Which just shows you what kind of a stigma painkillers have. Roger obviously felt the need to cook up a convincing cover story.
would of?
Your easily annoyed, then.
Thats cool.
You mean "Your easily annoyed, than."
Hmm. Let's see how this would play out.
Mitchell: "Roger, Brian McNamee says he injected you with Winstrol, which you supplied, several times. He says he injected you several times with testosterone from a bottle labeled either Sustanon 250 or Deca-Durabolin, which he got from Kirk Radomski. McNamee also says he injected you several times with human growth hormone, which he also got from Radomski."
Clemens: "No, he's not telling the truth. The only thing he ever injected me with is B-12 and lidocaine."
That gets Clemens's name out of the report?
Kids today. Sigh.
No, of course not. But the spontaneity of the answer would give us a sense that Clemens is telling the truth. The way it came out, days after the report, gives us a sense that they worked on making up a story.
Irregardless, my point is made.
The fact that Clemens wears the number 22 gives you guys "a sense" that they worked on making up a story.
(Guess we'll have to wait until Monday -- he's holding a press conference that day -- to figure out what the next excuse for believing him guilty is. But I'm betting that 'he protested too much' will probably somehow make it into the argument.)
"F*** you, Mike." responds Clemens
Note that I'm not actually passing judgment on whether his defense is true or not (I happen to think he's a lying jade), merely echoing what the public reaction is going to be: they ain't gonna buy it. Stick a fork in him, he's done.
Still a Hall of Famer, though.
Really? Gee, I couldn't tell.
C'mon Ray, I was really just looking for a reason to use the phrase "lying jade."
Of course that doesn't prove he's guilty, Irwin. But I'd have had a better feeling about Clemens' integrity had he chose to give everyone the finger and not commented at all.
Unless he's lying, he was injected with *something*. If it were B-12, why wait as long as he waited to tell the world? He had to know that the world was forming opinions. The best way to do damage control would be to tell the truth right away...that the injections were B-12. Unless, they weren't B-12 injections. Then, he's in a bit of a pickle, Irwin.
"Brian has a master's degree in sports medicine," Ward told ESPN The Magazine's Shaun Assael. "He knows the difference between Lidocaine, B-12 and testosterone. What he injected into Roger Clemens wasn't Lidocaine or B-12. It was testosterone."
The best that I can say for him is that this is lame on Roger's part. The worst, well, time to fess up. Like some others here have stated, he should have said either "F...Y.." or come out with this statement immediately.
If a couple more Yankees show up with warts, I may have to start liking Jeter as a rose among all those thorns. I shudder at the thought ... :)
So your argument is that it took him three weeks to think up the B-12 cover story?
What if he had mentioned taking B-12, say, when the Grimsley story broke?
It's so funny to see the hoops people will jump through to convict someone that they don't like. Why not just come out and say "I don't like Clemens so I'm deciding to believe the other guy over him?" Why go through phony reason after phony reason for saying he's guilty?
Just asking.
Because that's where McNamee said he injected Clemens.
It's so funny to see the hoops people will jump through to exonerate someone that they like. Why not just come out and say "I really like Clemens so I'm deciding to believe him over the other guy?" Why go through phony reason after phony reason for saying he's innocent?
I guess that makes me the odd man out, since I like Clemens but I think there's about a 1% chance that he's telling the truth.
As Darren points out, yet another one of those ridiculously false idiocies people come up with -- "I would have believed him if he had said it right away, but since he waited until now, I don't" -- is baseless, since in fact Clemens came out with the B-12 claim a long time ago.
I've said before I don't know whether Clemens is guilty or not. I just don't think it's reasonable to look at the evidence before us and assume that he's guilty.
That has nothing to do with what Clemens said though. He said that he's been injected with lidocaine. He didn't say where.
Lesson 1: Repeatedly deny the charges against you.
umm, #41 was just supposed to be a good-natured mocking of #37. I guess you assumed I was responding to your post 17 slots above...?
These weren't lidocaine shots, you just put a little bit of lidocaine in B12 shots to alleviate some of the soreness you get with any injection. I don't know if Clemens wasn't clear enough in his excuse or if the headline-writer just didn't know this.
I'd love to know who you're referring to. The only person I've seen on this site come close to saying he's innocent is baseball chick.
The rest of us simply haven't reached a conclusion given the state of the evidence. I've said before that I think there's a 25-30% chance he's "guilty," and I'm waiting to see what other information comes out. I haven't the foggiest clue how people are getting to 99% certainty.
see post #51
1. Geovany Soto - I think he's better than Vitters
2. Josh Vitters
3. Jeff Samardzija
4. Donald Veal - sleeper, I like him
5. Tyler Colvin
6. Jose Ceda
7. Sean Gallagher
8. Allesandro Maestri
Just missed: Josh Donaldson, Tony Thomas
I don't either. it boggles the mind. I just label them 'sheep.' These are the people that take what ever the media feeds them when it comes to the juice. Its mind boggling because they spend pretty much 360 days a year at Primer, dissecting, what the media feeds them.
Andy. how can you arrive at 99% certainty?
You have three guys named by McNamee, a guy trying to save his ass from ..well we have no idea what he is saving his ass from, but he is still trying to save it.
Of the three guys he fingered, one admitted,[pettitte] and two denied.[rocket/justice].
Truth of the matter, if anybody here is lying, it is probably Pettitte.
It is amazing that you witch hunters let a guy off the hook for admission, even when by your own standards, he is telling a bigger lie. Show of hands; how many of you hunters believed Pettitte. but yet he lied to your face, and you are ok with that ..
mind boggling.
One again, David nails it.
Er, the fact that he listened to his counsel, versus the media, PROVES he is guilty.
Someone missed the part about having common sense. I won't say who, Darren.
He did steroids.
If it were B-12, why wait as long as he waited to tell the world? He had to know that the world was forming opinions. The best way to do damage control would be to tell the truth right away...that the injections were B-12. Unless, they weren't B-12 injections.
Oops:
It was mentioned in an affidavit involving former major league pitcher Jason Grimsley, and Jose Canseco wrote in his book, "Juiced," that Clemens' late-career success showed "classic signs" of steroids use. At the time, Hendricks told Newsday: "Roger says it is all nonsense ... takes vitamin B-12 shots ... and will pass every test."
In the context of the locker room (and assuming Canseco is right), I find Clemens' marital fidelity more admirable than any player who chose not to use steroids.
Debbie Clemens is (a) pretty hot; and (b) probably the only person who could put up with Rocket's personality due to knowing him back before he was a big deal. He has every incentive to stay faithful.
"whatever you do, don't sell that cow"
You slay me, Darren.
Inadmissable hearsay, David.
You have three guys named by McNamee, a guy trying to save his ass from ..well we have no idea what he is saving his ass from, but he is still trying to save it.
Of the three guys he fingered, one admitted,[pettitte] and two denied.[rocket/justice].
Actually you forgot Chuck Knoblauch, who hasn't been heard from but who I'm sure hasn't confessed, either.
Truth of the matter, if anybody here is lying, it is probably Pettitte.
GR, just ask yourself a simple question. Which of these two scenarios seems inherently more likely to be truthful:
A guilty player denying that he juiced? Plenty of examples of that out there.
Or an innocent player confessing to something that he didn't do? Name one.
Why on earth would Pettitte confess to something he didn't do?
Is he part of a diabolical plot to destroy McNamee's credibility? I think I saw something like that in an old Bogart movie, with Bette Davis playing the Pettitte part. Yes, maybe Randy Hendricks was surfing TCM one night and got inspired by Marked Woman.
More seriously, although Pettitte's confession doesn't necessarily force a conclusion that McNamee was telling the truth about the other three, it certainly doesn't hurt his overall credibility, as even David admits. We can argue about whether that makes it 2% certain or 99% certain that Clemens juiced, but that's little more than our individual hunches speaking. And in this case, I certainly hope that your hunch is correct and that I'll be proved a gullible chump for believing McNamee.
This is what I think at this point. I'd say there's an 85% chance Clemens used steroids, but in the end it's still based on evidence that is nowhere near conclusive.
I agree. The 99% thing is pretty shaky.
The chance that Clemens is lying here is 100%.
Change the phrasing to present day, and maybe we'll let them claim the lower 99% figure.
That would have been a good thing. In your scrapbook of Roger Clemens life works, can you find where Clemens actually did this?
What you have linked is Clemen's agent saying things allegedly told to him by Roger. For all those people typing "hearsay", you know have a more operable example of it.
If you want Clemens actual statements after Grimsley they are:
The B12 statement by Hendricks came after the frappacino statement. In Roger's defense, it was a little before we found that Roger liked to dip into the Vioxx.
At that time, Roger told us,
If we want to see how Jose fits in, here is his take on B-12 and Clemens from page 211-212 of Juiced:
Clemens reaction to Canseco's first accusations:
I've said before I don't know whether Clemens is guilty or not. I just don't think it's reasonable to look at the evidence before us and assume that he's guilty.
ROFLMAO. What does this mean-that you think he did not take PEDS; that you aren't able to form conclusions on your own until somebody tells you what to think?
David, I think that is responsive to Darren's fanboy defenses. The ones where he insults anyone that examines the issue in anyway.
As for benefit of the doubt, that is well and good, but I think we do need to examine things.
We have gone from taking Vioxx to nothing but frappacino to having Wallace say no injections from McNamee to B12 and lidocaine in the ass. At some point the Rocket has to land.
It was mentioned in an affidavit involving former major league pitcher Jason Grimsley, and Jose Canseco wrote in his book, "Juiced," that Clemens' late-career success showed "classic signs" of steroids use. At the time, Hendricks told Newsday: "Roger says it is all nonsense ... takes vitamin B-12 shots ... and will pass every test."
Chris: I suppose it's possible Clemens actually believes he was getting b-12 injections. [/blank stare]
People are going to believe what they're predisposed to believe. Meanwhile, the nooses are tightening...
Canseco:
This statement is laughable coming from Canseco, a player who peaked between the ages of 23-26 and managed to play just two full seasons thereafter. (It looks like he missed time in 1994, but of course that was the strike year and he actually played in 111 of the 114 games.)
Then where did the B12 and lidocaine come from Roger?
According to CBS, when Wallace asked Clemens if McNamee had injected him with any drugs, Clemens responded: "Lidocaine and B-12. It's for my joints, and B-12 I still take today."
Which is it Roger? Did you have to backtrack when McNamee threatened to sue?
so Clemens says to McNamee, "Geez I'm beat; I need something to make me feel better--got any B12 ?"
and McNamee says: "ummm.. B12? you sure?--yeah, I got me some of that"
so Clemens actually meant B12, while McNamee thought he meant "B12"
(nah, I don't believe it either)
(1) McNamee provided all the drugs (including lidocaine which most likely is going to require a prescription for any indicated injectable form)
(2) Roger asked for B12 and literally meant B12.
(3) And he would be shocked, shocked if McNamee used illicit substances
(4) In fact, he would not believe McNamee would do any such thing which is why he said he had "never taken steroids or hGH"
That is the Bonds defense, B12:steroids::flaxseed:HgH
Especially in the offseason. Its also doubly important to get it in the ass.
Just to be safe, you need to get that lidocaine in the ass too.
You're getting pretty desperate here. Wallace backtracked, not Clemens. So Wallace sloppily says "No injections" when he means "no injections of steroids," and then he clarified it.
Canseco backs Clemens (Audio file of radio interview with Canseco yesterday.)
From McNamee, one would presume.
If they came from McNamee, then Clemens's statement (that he did not provide McNamee with any drugs to inject into his body) is 100% true.
And I assume that a trainer would be more likely to supply B-12 and lidocaine than the athlete. Regardless, let's suppose Clemens provided the B-12 and lidocaine to McNamee. So taken literally, Clemens's statement would not be true. But then you're accusing him of "lying" about doing something that was perfectly legal and legitimate.
I'm not moved.
Backtrack? Where?
Where are you getting the location of the injections from? I haven't seen Clemens comment on that.
BL just likes to make ass jokes. He's an ass man--we had a nice (albeit too short) conversation about Jessica Alba's ass once.
I still didn't hear Clemens say it. His agent said he used it. Also, it also appears the timeline is wrong as being asserted by Darren. The statment by Hendricks appears to have occurred after "Juiced" and was to counter Canseco's statements about "B12" being code. Specifically, Hendricks was saying that Roger does take B12, with an implication that all the other steroid talk with Canseco was just Roger trying to be cool.
From McNamee, one would presume.
Oh, so McNamee had that much control over what went into the syringe?
Is this a case of not knowingly taking steroids.
And certainly Roger wouldn't let McNamee inject him with something for which Roger needs a prescription. Or was he just putting anbesol in the syringe?
But then you're accusing him of "lying" about doing something that was perfectly legal and legitimate.
First, I haven't accused him of anything. You may find it easier to respond to what is being said rather than doing your best to figure out what people mean.
Second, if you want an implication, the implication is that Clemens changes his story to suit the moment. That should shed light on his veracity. Whether you are impressed (or why you would need to be impressed) is totally irrelevant.
Third, the lidocaine may not be legal either. He would require a prescription for injectable forms.
So you think that McNamee was lying about where the injections were given too?
maybe not. he might have needed a root canal in his posterior. I suppose that's possible, seeing as how Clemens has been known to talk out of his ass so much.
And you don't find that just a little weird? Because I sure do. To the best of my knowledge, normal adults typically don't receive injections in their gluteus maximus. I've received as many as ten vaccinations in one day, and strangely enough not a single one of them was in my rear end. If the nurse had publicly claimed that it was, I would deny it out of sheer embarrassment.
Yes, and? The point here is that some people were trying to claim that the time that elapsed between when the Mitchell report was released and Clemens' statement that he used B-12 was evidence that he was lying about B-12 -- the theory, I guess, being that he's really slow and took several weeks to think of that alibi. But in fact we know that it didn't take him several weeks to think it up; he had already used it.
Falsus in uno...
He also claimed that Clemens stopped getting HGH because he didn't like a belly button shot, even though HGH isn't injected into the belly button. Dr. McNamee, PhD, has some credibility since Pettitte admitted his allegations about him, but not a lot.
Are you on (non-injectable) drugs? Ray points out that Clemens didn't say that they were in the ass, and then you respond that it's strange that Clemens got injected in the ass? Where are you getting the claim that they were injected in the ass?
And your argument is self-refuting anyway; if you don't think someone would get injections in the ass, then that discredits McNamee.
It would be in the same way that everyone is claiming "hearsay, hearsay" in that it was repeated by a paper.
My point is that you have so many of the fanboy legion trying to discredit something by saying "Hearsay" when a statement or report directly quotes someone's admissable assertions that it is comical when they cite as evidence:
(a) A newspaper relaying
(b) A statement allegedly made years before
(c) by another person
(d) that implies but does not expressly state, it was a statement by Clemens.
The point here is that some people were trying to claim that the time that elapsed between when the Mitchell report was released and Clemens' statement that he used B-12 was evidence that he was lying about B-12 -- the theory, I guess, being that he's really slow and took several weeks to think of that alibi. But in fact we know that it didn't take him several weeks to think it up; he had already used it.
There is some truth in that report. The slow crawl of information makes very little sense. It would seem prudent for Clemens to make a statement immediately afterwards that "I did not use HGH, and the only injections ever given to me by McNamee where for B12, which I have used for ___ years."
Instead we get Rusty telling us that people should "get a good lawyer." Now, Rusty is saying it was his idea to have this slow crawl of information. Maybe Roger needs "to get a good PR person"
He also claimed that Clemens stopped getting HGH because he didn't like a belly button shot, even though HGH isn't injected into the belly button.
Hgh is administered in the belly. Roger apparently preferred the ass.
And your argument is self-refuting anyway; if you don't think someone would get injections in the ass, then that discredits McNamee.
They don't think you would get B12 injections in the ass, unless you just liked getting shots in the ass.
And, of course, if he had said that, you'd have believed him.For what? People decided they didn't believe him, and then afterwards manufactured reasons not to do so. If he threatens to sue, he's guilty because he's overreacting; if he doesn't, he's underreacting. He had the wrong body language when he denied it. He denied it in the wrong order. He should have said it in Pig Latin. You have Rich claiming that he knew Clemens was guilty because several people here say that polygraphs are not accurate. (Not because Clemens refused to take one, but because Primates said it was pointless to take one.)
Why would Clemens volunteer a completely irrelevant bit of information -- that being something he didn't do wrong -- which he had already previously announced? He denied that he gave anything to McNamee; he denied that McNamee gave him any PEDs. There was no "slow crawl." This came out because Wallace asked him it, not because Clemens suddenly announced it three weeks later.
If people want to think Clemens is guilty, they will, no matter what he does. If McNamee comes out and says that he lied because prosecutors forced him to, people would still think of some reason why Clemens was guilty. They'd claim Clemens paid him off. So don't worry; on Sunday you can claim you don't believe him because he blinked too much. And then after his press conference on Monday, you can claim you don't believe him because he wore the wrong color shirt.
Thigh, normally, actually. But neither the thigh nor the belly is the "belly button," which is what the Mitchell Report quoted McNamee as saying.
And if McNamee were being offered as a defense witness, you'd laugh at the idea that anybody would believe him.
Why would you get anything injected in the ass, Mike Piazza jokes excepted?
It's a very large muscle and can absorb more volume and take a longer needle than smaller muscles like the deltoid or tricep.
BL won't need to go quite that far. He can just claim that Clemens had his fingers crossed during the interview, and that we only didn't see that because Wallace -- a friend of Clemens, dontchaknow -- told the camera crew to film Clemens only from the shoulders up.
They should google "B12 shot buttocks" then. My mother is vitamin deficient and has regularly received B12 shots in her ass to help her. They can also be applied to the arm (usually alternating) or the stomach
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