Ricciardi says the Jays will not trade Halladay if they do not receive the right offer, knowing that the team’s best chance of competing next season is with the pitcher at the top of the rotation.
C’mon.
Once this process starts, it’s almost impossible to stop. Rest assured, the Jays are assembling prospect lists and preparing to assign their scouts to investigate rival farm systems. Halladay is a goner. It’s just a matter of when and where.
Here’s an early handicap of the Halladay sweepstakes. Warning! While I’m basing this list on some initial conversations with major-league executives, it is largely speculative. To my knowledge, none of the names mentioned below have even been discussed yet.
** Red Sox. Where the Yankees sniff, the Red Sox follow. No doubt the Sox could put together a stunning package for Halladay, starting with right-hander Clay Buchholz. They then would control Halladay and right-hander Josh Beckett through 2010 and lefty Jon Lester through ‘14. Wow.
Then again, the Red Sox could determine that their greater need is a hitter, and Indians catcher Victor Martinez still looms as an ideal option. The Indians would want Buchholz plus other prospects, but their price for Martinez would not be as steep as the Jays’ price for Halladay.
Martinez, under club control through 2010, could play first base if the Red Sox needed Kevin Youkilis at third to replace Mike Lowell. He also could catch if Jason Varitek dropped off in the second half and spell David Ortiz at DH.
Repoz
Posted: July 07, 2009 at 11:04 AM |
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I doubt Halladay will be traded, but if he IS traded, there is NO way he is traded to the Yankees or the Red Sox. No way, no how. To even include them in the conversation is just willful ignorance.
I think I speak for Jays fans when I say #### off rumor mongerer. There are no whiffs of the Jays trading Halladay but that doesn't make sense to Robothal so he's just going to make some sh!t up. Nice. I hope Halladay spends his entire career with the Jays. He's their guy, dammit.
Are you willing to give up Fernando? Otherwise, I'd find someone else worth trading for.
The A's did this with Rickey! once. They traded him to the Jays for Steve Karsay and then re-signed Rickey that offseason.
Barring a major injury that breaks before the trade deadline, the Red Sox probably don't consider starting pitching their top acquisition priority anyway.
Then again, the Red Sox could determine that their greater need is a hitter, and Indians catcher Victor Martinez still looms as an ideal option. The Indians would want Buchholz plus other prospects, but their price for Martinez would not be as steep as the Jays’ price for Halladay.
Martinez, under club control through 2010, could play first base if the Red Sox needed Kevin Youkilis at third to replace Mike Lowell. He also could catch if Jason Varitek dropped off in the second half and spell David Ortiz at DH.
There's something that's slightly obscene about a rich team like the Red Sox treating the Blue Jays like Braselton, Georgia.
I think their top priority would be a catcher. I think V-Mart would be a good fit in Boston.
Says a Yankee fan who is possibly old enough to remember the Kansas City A's.
There's no ####### way Halladay goes to the Yankees or Red Sox. Toronto will piss off enough people if they trade Halladay, they don't need to completely erase their fanbase.
And Jays fans thank you for your position on this.
That was probably me.
Seconded. The object of a trade is to improve your team. If the Blue Jays are trading Halladay and the best offer they get is from the Sox or Yankees or Rays or Orioles then why shouldn't they make the trade?
If the answer is "because it will help them more than it helps the Jays" then the problem isn't trading Halladay in the division, it's trading Halladay at all.
I don't think it's as simple as "don't trade within the division." It's this type of trade. It's bad PR for a franchise in Toronto's position to trade their best and most famous player to a division rival, one of the ones their fans most want to see lose, at a point where the team is technically still in the running.
I'm sure if they sent someone that they sent a bench player or even a mid-level everyday guy to Baltimore or Tampa, or really, even the Yankees/Red Sox, there wouldn't be a lot of complaining unless there was a perception they got ripped off in the process. The sting might not be as bad if the team were 29-50 or something either.
Back in the day, there was very little interleague trading so teams usually traded with their direct competitors.
Funny for you. I know it's a joke, but I still don't like seeing it on paper...
Like when Toronto dealt Hinske to the Red Sox. There was no animosity towards Toronto management with that deal.
Never mind the talk about flipping Halladay to another AL East team that y'all have rightly laughed at. If you're gonna say something stupid, then at least try to look smart doing so.
Says a Yankee fan who is possibly old enough to remember the
Kansas CityPhiladelphia A's.Fixed that for you, sonny boy. Ouch!
Don't look at me. I know Whitman, but I'm unfamiliar with the Collected Works of Billy P.
I think getting someone on Windows ME should be a federal crime, punishable by immediate execution.
Ahh, good times. That's the thread when I realized I loathed Rosenthal.
And it ended up mostly being about destroying mostly-abandoned sectors in dying Rust Belt cities.
That's the thread where I realized that I should just write up a standard "Why the Jays won't trade Halladay" post, for the 50 times a year that assorted jackass columnists talk about how the Jays should just hand Halladay over to their favorite team.
I should really get started on that, since we're heading into the time of year where the moronic speculating heats up.
I had my hopes up after the 27-14 start, but now I'm thinking my preseason guess of 77-80 wins is going to pan out. Halladay has already bent over backwards for this team, so I certainly wouldn't blame him for wanting out. Its not like he 28 - he's 32, and in his twelfth(!) season with Toronto. He deserves a chance to win a WS.
His last name rhymes with "flash me."
JP was on XM Radio last week, and they asked him if Halladay was available. He very directly said that he would not rule out trading Halladay if the right deal came along. So there definitely is a "whiff".
That doesn't mean he shouldn't listen to offers - I presume every GM listens to all offers - but this seems very unlikely to me.
The Mets farm system has been completely depleted. It sucks.
I still can't believe they got Santana for that Carlos Gomez PuPu Platter. You never know.
Seriously though, I would also be shocked if the Jays traded Halladay - I guess if you're JP you have to at least listen if someone calls, but I'd imagine he'd have to be absolutely blown away with an offer to even seriously consider it.
At least nobody brought up Pittsburgh. Yinz are learning.
And then JP would have to convince the ownership group. That may be a tough, tough sell.
Of course there is. It's completely ridiculous that the Jays would pay $10M a season for a durable elite fielding outfielder who hits around 0.290 with 70 XBH and 30 steals a season.
Really? I'd figure that it would be easy for a lame duck GM to convince his bosses to trade their best player (who is currently signed to a very reasonable contract, and who's departure would result in a cratering of attendance).
I wonder if somebody like the Rangers might not turn out to be a dark horse here...
Heck, they'd probably do it for a shot at Vicente Padilla.
Halladay? You're ####### right you have. The guy is the best pitcher in franchise history, on the short list for best active pitcher in baseball, and just a pleasure to watch play. If (when?) he leaves Toronto, I'm going to be incredibly pissed.
For Rios, I'm just getting annoyed with all the ragging that he takes, because he had the misfortune to only turn into a very good player, rather than a superstar. The guy can be a key part of a good ballclub, and his contract is far from being ridiculous.
Pittsburgh's not Detroit. They've repositioned themselves pretty well between the medical stuff and the universities. It's small for a major league town and still not really growing.
Strangely, I saw Niese throw a complete game shutout in AAA a few days ago. Funny how names of players pop up everywhere after you've seen said player.
Rios is regressing as a hitter - he peaked 2 or 3 years ago. He's a great fielder when he wants to be, but lately it seems he doesn't want to be.
They were clearly rebuilding in 1995 and had won it all in 1992 and 1993 so that's nothing like this situation at all. David Cone was also a short-timer.
As for 1999, I'm sure many Jays fans were very unhappy with that move, but Clemens, like Cone, was only a short-term Blue Jay.
Has he passed Steib yet?
He's getting really close, and will almost certainly do so by the end of next season. The 10 point lead in ERA+ also helps, as does the Cy Young.
Oh, it be true, all right. Roger Maris, Ralph Terry, Art Ditmar, Clete Boyer, Hector Lopez, Bob Cerv, etc.
I could see them doing something with the Os for Wieters plus others, or the Rays for Price plus others, but not with the Yanks or Sox.
The Os probably wouldn't do that, and the Rays might not either (but they should). Clay Bucholz? Joba? No chance.
I proved this last year by Adding Pujols + Jeff Francoeur and the numbers were almost an exact match for Torii Hunter + Mark Teixiera. Try it yourself.
Yeah, right. The Mets couldn't put together an acceptable package if their lives depended on it. Just who do they have that's worth the crap on my shoe? F-Mart? Josh Thole? Niese? Those 3 may net a decent player (i.e., be part of the overall package for a Victor Martinez type), but that won't come close to the players the Jays will eventually receive should they part with Halladay. Not unless, of course, they're willing to part with some of the players on their 25 man roster, together with those prospects.
...or they could eat a majority of the Vernon Wells deal.
Actually, if you were looking to get the Blue Jays attention as far as dealing Halladay goes. Thats where you probably start if you know you don't have the prospects.
That reminds me, I was unfortunately listening to Cowherd last week and in trying to find comps for Trevor Ariza of the Laker (good young player who overperformed in the playoffs and will settle back to earth) that moron actually equated him to Carlos Beltran because he think he's overpaid because of that series in Houston. Just some of the most asinine talk radio I've ever heard.
The Vernon Wells deal isn't nearly as big a crippler as people believe. Yeah, it's a terrible deal (unless Wells massively rebounds), but it's timed to start its massive escalation at a point where the Jays have a ton of cash coming off the books. After all, after 2010, they get rid of the BJ Ryan, Overbay, and Rolen contracts, which free up something like $30M a season. At that point, they'll also have a pitching staff which is mostly in their pre- or early arb years, so the only big ticket items will be Wells, Rios, and possibly Halladay if they can resign him.
Of course, that's not to say that they'd refuse to listen if someone offered to take that contract off their hands.
Yeah, if he's as good as he is this year. Pujols is crazy good, but good luck expecting 1.200 OPSes for the next several years.
...or they could eat a majority of the Vernon Wells deal.
So now the Blue Jays would be trading their two most recognizable players? Right.
I don't trust these numbers one bit.
Trading Halladay would result in a riot. Trading Vernon (and his much maligned contract) would result in a celebration.
There was from me. I remember clearly wanting the 4-corner backup in town. Especially given how pathetic our corner production has been over the last few years at times, esp. when guys go down.
That's true: Cone wasn't there long. Still, it hurt for them to give him up for those three SP prospects I can't even name any longer. I mean, he was so effortless and awesome.
Clemens asked to be traded, and that ####, as good as he was for Toronto, wasn't missed. ####. I don't care who you are. Demand to be traded, and you're a ####.
Halladay is everything in Toronto now that Mats is gone. He's the most popular Blue Jay since Carter's HR and Alomar. He might be the most popular athlete in town since Wendel's retirement. Esp. so with the way the town trounced VC (correctly so). The thought of him on the Bankees or Red $ox is repugnant. I'm ranting and angry and hyperventilating at the mere thought of it. They outspend the #### universe and make it so that the Jays can never really make a run at the playoffs. Fine. Try anyways. But not with Roy.
Yes, look out for my foot in Kenny Williams's ass.
Drabek's really come back from injury well, Taylor's making a leap, and so too is that other toolsy OF BA had in their top 5: Brown. The Philly system looks good so far this year.
Whoa! Look whatcha did there!
make it so that the Jays can never really make a run at the playoffs
Yeah, no one else in the AL East ever makes the playoffs.
There's a big gap between "listen to offers" for a player and "shopping" a player.
Not sure if the ERA+ difference is germane when making cross-era comparisons, but that's high praise for Halliday. I'm not sure if Steib's career is long enough to warrant a HOF nod and neither did the BBWAA, but guys who thought about it longer and harder elected him to the HOM.
I'm not either, and that's despite being a huge Steib fan. To be honest, I also question his selection to the HoM, although that's probably because I'm more of a career guy than a peak guy, and Stieb's career was effectively over at the age of 33.
Halladay, on the other hand, looks like he'll be able to continue until his late 30s (Of course, at the age of 32, so did Stieb), and will have a good case for both the Hall of Fame and Hall of Merit.
At the end of the day Hallady has been such a great guy to have in the city that I would not begrudge him if he wanted to go to a contender - and I would not begrudge him if he wanted to pitch for Toronto until his arm fell off.
Halladay is more popular than any assortment of hockey players? Really? In Canada?
Don't the Maple Leafs fans despise most of their players?
Ah. The Jay Cutler hermeneutic.
Not a Torontoan, but I think that assessment is equal parts commentary on Roy's likability and the absence of such a trait among the current crop of Maple Leafs.
Yes, he is. That's due to his long association with the Jays, his high level of performance, and the current sad state of the Leafs. Mats Sundin was probably more popular, but there's currently no one on the Maple Leaf roster who draws any sort of notable attention - they've basically got a collection of checkers, scrubs, and depth signings (and Kaberle, who is always mentioned as someone who could be traded).
Name the last AL East team in the playoffs before the Rays finally benefitted from more than a decade of drafting in the top 3 in the Rule IV. The $ox and Bankee$ really do spend their way to the playoffs every year. How's that controversial?
Obviously, they're at a disadvantage. I'm not disagreeing with that. However, it doesn't change the fact that the Jays haven't really had a playoff caliber team since the early 90s, while a number of other teams with similar or lesser payrolls to them have.
Besides, how many good non-Red Sox/Yankees teams were there in the AL East over the past 10 years? Other than the '08 Rays, that list is entirely 80-something win Blue Jays clubs. The AL East had two guaranteed stinkers for most of that time.
A steady stream of picks in the Top 3 played a really insignificant role in the Rays' ascension.
By the way, style question, is the $ needed at the end of Bankees, or is their cash heavy ways evident enough in the "Bank" part. I see you employed both versions, so it would be nice to clear up the proper application of this witticism.
Both last and this year, B-Pro has the Blue Jays as a top 5-6 team overall for all of MLB, certainly a playoff caliber team doomed by divisional opponent to look worse to casual observers (not implying that you're a casual observer: you know whom I mean). Put the Cards in the AL East or really any NL team inclusive of the Dodgers and see what happens.
That's an unfair statement to last year's dominant run prevention club and this year's surprisingly spunky guys. With anything approximating a level playing field, these guys could have had a nice run in them. And kudos to the Rays to breaking past the big two anyways--all of the same hindrences the Jays face less the whims of currency exchange and they still made it in last year. Kudos, kudos, kudos.
***
Being in the top three picks of most drafts/rounds in the draft over a decade didn't help a largely homegrown team? Interesting.
I didn't say it didn't help, but the idea that the Rays' success was all because of 10 years of ineptitude and those high draft picks paying off all at once is vastly overstated.
Longoria and Upton were signficant contributors. Price a minor one (at least in terms of winning the AL East). They also turned Young into Garza and Bartlett. But the rest of the staff, 1/2 of the infield, 2/3 of the outfield and the starting infield were not the result of having high draft picks.
Read the article, there is nothing in there to indicate he has any knowledge of the Jays shopping Halladay.
This is, at best, pure speculation and, at worst, completely irresponsible journalism.
Go to hell Robothal, you ####### turd.
Which of the O's and non-08-Rays clubs from the last dozen years that would have sniffed contention in another division?
Both last and this year, B-Pro has the Blue Jays as a top 5-6 team overall for all of MLB
I'll grant you last year's team - we'll see about this year's, but given the amount of injuries they've had, it's been an admirable first half.
How many good teams could you have had in the AL East when you have an unbalanced schedules and two spending clubs of that magnitude?
Well, if I'm to believe what you're saying about the 08-09 Jays being pretty good, and I am, then I guess the answer is four.
No!
It has been an admirable first half, and it's looking like it's going to be a brutal second half - they've already churned through far more pitching depth than I thought they had, but one more pitching injury should finish them off.
And if they trade Halladay, they'll likely enter total implosion mode.
I thought the Jays had hit rock bottom when Hayhurst got called up, but I last night I saw a ticker note that Marc Rzepczynski is starting on Tuesday, and I've never even heard of him.
I don't even think it'll take another pitching injury to make the second half brutal. All we need is some regression from Lind, Hill, Rolen and Overbay, and the offense tanks. Scutaro and Hill are already regressing, and it's not like the Jays have any offensive depth. I just hope that Brian Tallet continues to be an average starter in the second half.
Edit:
As a Blue Jays fan, you're not allowed to write or say this sentence unless it's concluded with "for Albert Pujols" or "for Felix Hernandez and Ichiro" or "for the rights to Stephen Strasburg and Matt Wieters in a three-way deal with Baltimore that involves Vernon Wells going to the O's." Actually, come to think of it, you could also end that sentence with "we go to Skydome armed with pitchforks and torches demanding JP Ricciardi dead or alive." If they Jays trade Halladay, I'd want to rip up my Starpass.
We've been working through pitchers I've never heard of for a while now - basically, it's been a stream of them for the last month or two (Mills, Murphy, Hayhurst, Ray). Rzepczynski is just the most recent version, and it'll be interesting to see who they come up with when he inevitably gets hurt.
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