The Mets have screwed up their '07 and '08 seasons, and apparently as a result, get their '09 season handed to them on a silver platter. K-Rod for cheap and Putz for nothing. Here's hoping that K-Rod really is regressing and that Putz puts up another 109 ERA+!

Nothing? That's a little hyperbolic.

That's an awesome trade. Heilman plus junk for Putz, although I do love Endy. Smith is good at what he does, but the Mets have Stokes and Sanchez (and now Green) for the same role. Carp would never have been more than a pinch hitter for the team.

Did Robo just forget about Carp in that final analysis? Or am I missing something?

Nothing? That's a little hyperbolic.

Yeah, according to the Met announcers...Endy Chavez is by far the best player at something or another in the ML!

Why the hell did the Indians want to trade Franklin Gutierrez AND 'minor leaguers' for Joe Smith and Luis Valbuena?

Making way for an outfielder signing, perhaps? Dunn/Burrell/Abreu?

This is a great trade... so long as Putz is healthy.

Whoa, wasn't expecting that, at least not this quickly. My initial reaction is that it seems a pretty fair deal . . . I think Endy Chavez is a much better OF than Reed . . . he's the one that I as a Mets fan am most concerned about giving up.

What was the point of Cleveland getting in on this? Did they simply want to be part of a trade?

Two more thoughts: the Mets have have traded the two best defensive OF in baseball in the last two years and, wow, we have another Sean Green

I am one person that is happy, since the rumor in St Louis was that the Cardinals were offering Ankiel for Putz, and I'm not sure that I like that trade (of course Ankiel is supposedly being offered to everybody)

I'm no prospect hound, but I'd heard good things about Carp. And looking at the numbers, I don't see why he's dismissed so easily. 22 years old, "repeating" AA (359 ABs last year), 11th in OBP, 31st in SLG. Of the 31 above him in SLG, 4 are his age, 2 are younger. I don't see any reason to believe Binghamton is a considerable hitter's park. What am I missing?

(EDIT) And I did go back through his MiL career, of course. I see a pretty natural progression for a talented hitter who isn't overwhelmingly good. I don't see "at best a pinch hitter".

So how happy is Putz likely to be with his new role of setup guy? I'm guessing the answer is "not very".

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is out of control.

So how happy is Putz likely to be with his new role of setup guy? I'm guessing the answer is "not very".

I think any dissatisfaction will be balanced out by his new role as "on the Mets instead of the Mariners".

So how happy is Putz likely to be with his new role of setup guy? I'm guessing the answer is "not very".

I'd imagine getting the hell out of Seattle makes it a more reasonable trade-off for him.

I think any dissatisfaction will be balanced out by his new role as "on the Mets instead of the Mariners".

While you're probably right in the short term, I think it'll also depend on how much he stands to lose by going into Free Agency as a set-up guy, rather than as a closer. That's the sort of thing which can cost a guy up to $10M a year.

Smith and Green are an exchange of right-handed groundball specialists.

What in the hell does this mean?

It sounds like Cleveland isn't giving up any minor leaguers, which makes me feel a bit better. I really don't know much about Luis Valbuena, so it's hard for me to make a judgment here.

Whoa.

I have to say THIS I didn't expect at all.

I'll miss defending Heilman to Dial. :-)

I'll have to check or something but wasn't Putz recently injured in 2007? Or did he have the same thing that every pitcher gets, sucking for awhile?

Hey, we lost Joe Smith! :-(

WTF?
What do the Indians get out of this?

And I did go back through his MiL career, of course. I see a pretty natural progression for a talented hitter who isn't overwhelmingly good. I don't see "at best a pinch hitter".

He has little defensive ability, no speed and his power hasn't really developed yet. His plate discipline did improve last year, but it was a repeat of the level. His most likely outcome is not enough defense for the outfield and not enough bat for 1B/DH. He's behind Nick Evans in the depth charts and basically has no place in the Mets future.

Two more thoughts: the Mets have have traded the two best defensive OF in baseball in the last two years

I thought the Indians just traded the best defensive OF in baseball. I'm not sure why either.

how much he stands to lose by going into Free Agency as a set-up guy, rather than as a closer. That's the sort of thing which can cost a guy up to $10M a year.

ummm, what?

I'll have to check or something but wasn't Putz recently injured in 2007?

He had a 1.38 ERA and 40 saves in 70 innings in 2007, but he had some injury issues in the first half of 2008. His second half of 2008 was nice: 2.96 ERA with 33 K and 11 BB in 27 innings.

While you're probably right in the short term, I think it'll also depend on how much he stands to lose by going into Free Agency as a set-up guy, rather than as a closer. That's the sort of thing which can cost a guy up to $10M a year.


10mil difference? really? Krod probably the biggest name free agent closer to hit the market made about 12mil per year, a decent setup guy usually gets about 5mil per year, so yes he is losing money, but I think 10 mil is a bit of a stretch, every year we hear about the massive money that people think a closer is going to get, and yet they get overpaid but rarely reach the stratosphere that is predicted. Wagner is probably the best free agent closer to reach the open market and made only 10.5 last season(yes Rivera makes 15mil, but he's so far ahead of everyone else, and he never reached the open market)

Thanks Mark, I MEANT 2008, but time passing really screws me up. 2009 season next? Egads.

castrovince sez seattle gets three more met minor leaguers: p jason vargas, p maikel cleto, and of ezekial carrera.

ummm, what?

He's making about $4M a year right now. Most set-up men seem to top out at about $5M a year in free agency, for about 3 years. Most high level closers, which he has been before, seem to end up in the range of $10M to $15M, for 4 years. That's a huge difference in a guy's earning potential.

EDIT: cardsfanboy is probably right, in that I'm thinking a couple million higher than I should. Either way, even if it's a top out at $12M, that's still a lot for a guy to be giving up.

EDIT 2: Even if he's pissed, it's still a great deal for the Mets.

From a Mets perspective, turning Smith into Green and Chavez into Reed doesn't mean that much, although Smith would seem to have more upside and Chavez would seem to be better defensively. Turning Heilman into Putz is a neat trick - if Putz is healthy and his terrible 2008 was merely the result of injuries. Of course, if Heilman's 2008 was an aberration as well, this deal has the potential to go bad for the Mets.

Me, I would've down Heilman/Feliciano for Street two weeks ago.

jason vargas, maikel cleto, and ezekial carrera

It's Ezequiel Carrera. Judging from the last two names, Seattle is playing for a triple word score.

Now they need to work on the rotation. Santana, "can I duplicate this" Pelfry, "am I recovered" Maine, and ???

I see a pretty natural progression for a talented hitter who isn't overwhelmingly good.

The issue is that for a hitter that isn't overwhelmingly good, it isn't clear he can handle a position other than 1B.

This reads like a Baseball Mogul trade where you keep adding marginal minor leaguers until the other team says yes.

The fact that Putz's awful numbers are in his first half reassures me, just as K-Rod's lesser numbers were in his first half. Let's hope I have reason to be reassured- it is a ludicrously small sample size to be counting on.

Nice deal, Omar! Getting rid of Heilman and Smith and getting JJ Putz would have been great enough, but gambling on Reed to rediscover his once tremendous potential plus getting Green, a guy who will be good with good defenders behind him, makes it sensational. We'll all miss Endy, but his approach at the plate will never let him be more than a defensive replacement. He could have been a force if he learned the strike zone and how to use his speed.
Now the Mets have a Benji kind of bullpen. Hard throwers in the 8th and 9th. No more Rick Peterson "fool em with changeups out of the zone" crap.

This reads like a Baseball Mogul trade where you keep adding marginal minor leaguers until the other team says yes.

My inner baseball nerd came out when I actually laughed out loud after reading that comment. My roommate asked what was so funny. I told him it was one of those things you can't explain.

Is it me, or the did Mariners do pretty good in this deal. Maybe no major pieces, but overall, this has to improve the roster.

As an aside, Heilman will win 12-14 games for Seattle next year as a starter. I also like Gutierrez a lot.
And still, a great deal for the Mets.

The Mariners now have the best defensive outfield in the majors, and perhaps in history. Endy/Gutierrez/Ichiro would have a chance to be historically great. Here's the Fangraphs UZRs:

(UZR/150; Games in LF/CF/RF)

Ichiro
2006: +8.8 [ 0, 39, 121]
2007: -1.8 [ 0, 155, 0]
2008: +1.5 [ 0, 69, 91]

Endy:

2006: +18.9 [ 43, 39, 45]
2007: +21.7 [ 37, 10, 24]
2008: +26.6 [ 54, 10, 60]

Gutierrez
2006: +9.5 [ 10, 7, 28]
2007: +26.9 [ 8, 88, 105]
2008: +22.5 [ 11, 12, 97]

Jarrod Washburn should send the new GM a thank you note. His 2009 ERA just dropped a run or so.

Howard, I hope that happens. Aaron Heilman should have been a starter all along. And I left a couple things out of my last comment. I'm very surprised the Indians dealt Gutierrez. I thought he was part of their future. And Putz, after the DL time, looked great to me. High hard ones.

No thread on Edwin Jackson for Matt Joyce yet?

An absolute steal for the Rays, in my opinion.

The issue is that for a hitter that isn't overwhelmingly good, it isn't clear he can handle a position other than 1B.

A first baseman who is not an overwhelmingly good hitter is still valuable, of course. I mean, we're saying .874 isn't overwhelmingly good, yet the ML average for 2008 for all players hitting while their position is listed as 1b is .817. Of course .874 at Binghamton doesn't equal .874 in the majors, but of course a 22 year old is likely not done developing. And patience is a skill that translates.

I'm not saying he's worth a whole lot or that they shouldn't have traded him, but categorizing him as "junk" and "nothing" is overly harsh, in my opinion.

Putz (or at least his agent) does not sound too pleased

His agent, Craig Landis, said Putz wants to remain a closer.

"He's one of the top five or 10 closers in the game," Landis said. "No, he would not want to be a set-up man."

Will Heilman even get to start there? USS Mariner doesn't seem to think so.

SteveM, I happen to think they did.

Dave Cameron agrees. (SMK linked that in the Lounge.)

I'm not saying he's worth a whole lot or that they shouldn't have traded him, but categorizing him as "junk" and "nothing" is overly harsh, in my opinion.

Totally agree. A fair point. Doesn't strike me as a great bet, though.

I like Mike Carp - he's younger than it seems at first glance (born on June 30) and the only major weakness in his offensive game is power, which is often the last skill to develop. Still, scouts say he has a slow bat and feasts on poor pitching. I don't know what to make of that, but I think he has a puncher's chance to be a competent MLB first baseman. But his upside is probably Mike Jacobs. The Mets can give up that kind of guy, considering that he has a few warts on his resume.

Chavez is truly spectacular defensively, but he just can't hit. Heilman will probably rebound in Seattle, but I have my doubts that he would have in NY. Smith is useful, but not especially so. Basically, the Mets gave up a bunch of guys that had marginal value for one very good player. I do that deal every time.

Does anybody know anything about Maikel Cleto or Ezequiel Carrera?

Does anybody know anything about Maikel Cleto or Ezequiel Carrera?

Neither profiles as much.

I will miss watching Endy play defense. But I won't miss watching the eighth inning handled as it was last year much more.

"He's one of the top five or 10 closers in the game," Landis said. "No, he would not want to be a set-up man."

Well, that was fun while it lasted.

Well, that was fun while it lasted.

I am not worried. Agents say stupid things all the time.

Hey, you know what SNY needs more of this hour? The same "Get your New York sports here!" commercial.

Maikel Cleto is a 19 year old who pitched mostly in A ball this year. He didn't have great stuff (81 K and 34 BB in 135 IP) and looks like he can get wild (25 WP).

Carrera is a speedy 21 year old OF who played in A+ with a low batting average, average plate discipline and little power.

I rarely hear him talked about, but Valbuena strikes me as a somewhat intriguing prospect. I thought the Mariners rushed him (as they so often do) to AA in 2007, but last year he hit over .300 in stops in both AA and AAA as a 22-year-old, showing very good strike zone judgement and maybe the potential to develop a little left-handed pop. I've read he's a good defender, and I've come to trust Shapiro's judgement in acquiring prospects, so maybe there's more here than meets the eye. Still, I would have thought Franklin would have fetched more.

From a Seattle perspective, let me just say that Bill Bavasi would NEVER had made a deal like this in a million years. Not just because it's far too complex in its structure for him to negotiate (massive multiplayer/multi-team trades like this were not his thing), but also because Bavasi would have had serious reservations on a personal level with sending someone like Putz into a situation where he was guaranteed to lose his closer position. Bavasi was just that sort of guy - he genuinely cared about the welfare of his players, and looked for good landing spots for him.

Which, sadly, is but one more reason he had to go. Because this trade is excellent for the Mariners. GMZ's first big transaction looks sharp from where I'm standing.

Wow, it's a small sample size, but Jeremy Reed has one of the most extreme platoon splits that I've ever seen for his career.

112 OPS+ vs RHP, 29 OPS+ vs LHP

Chavez has a pretty neutral career platoon split (he's actually slightly better versus lefties in 460 PA).

I was also surprised that UZR rates Reed so poorly. My recollection was that he was supposed to be an outstanding defender. Also an artifact of small sample size or has he lost a step since he first came up?

BTW, Putz should absolutely be pissed. This trade very well may cost him tens of millions of dollars in future earnings.

where you keep adding marginal minor leaguers until the other team says yes

Ah yes. I remember a game (the name escapes me) where the trade calculation system seemed to be based on chance and quantity as much as quality, so if you wanted to get Albert Pujols, all you had to do was put down five random AAAA names, until you had a maybe 5% chance of the trade going through, and then offer the trade over and over until the Cardinals finally accepted. It was awesome. I always imagined myself as the most obnoxiously successful GM ever ("Will you make the trade now? Will you make the trade now? Will you make the trade now? How about now?").

Boy! With Endy and Gutierrez out there, the Mariners pitchers are going to have a lot better stats next year.

I've been sorta hoping Jarrod Washburn gets traded to the Phillies...he shouldn't be lumped in with Batista and Carlos Silva, he's been a good pitcher every year for a while.

Mariners join the Royals in the "trade relievers, you can always make more" camp too.

Omar just wants to have a Putz and a Rod in the showers at the same time

Wait, are the Mets going to pay Putz $9M next year (his option) to be their set-up man? Wow. That would make him the highest paid setup man in baseball by some margin. Wouldn't signing Juan Cruz and doing Heilman for Marquis for cash been better, giving them a 5th SP plus a set up man who's just as good (and cheaper)?

Wait, are the Mets going to pay Putz $9M next year (his option) to be their set-up man? Wow.

That's 2010 he has the option for $9.1-$9.5 mil. He makes $5.5 mil in 2009.

I suspect you're correct, though, that in 2010 he'd be the highest paid setup man by a good margin.

Now they need to work on the rotation. Santana, "can I duplicate this" Pelfry, "am I recovered" Maine, and ???

I'm guessing they get Lowe, especially since it looks like the Yankees will get Burnett (and will pass on Lowe).

I'm guessing they get Lowe.

The Times thinks that's a no-go:

Moving their way forward, the Mets planned to meet with Scott Boras, who represents Derek Lowe and Oliver Pérez, but believe their financial commitment to Rodríguez has taken them out of the bidding for Lowe. Pérez, though, remains a possibility, especially if the Yankees look elsewhere.

The Mets are wary of giving Pérez a four-year deal but remain interested in re-signing him.

I'm guessing they get Lowe, especially since it looks like the Yankees will get Burnett (and will pass on Lowe).

Which is mildly stupid. You'd think they'd have learned something from the Carl Pavano Experience.

Is there any chance Jeremy Reed turns into a good player? Or is he done as a guy with potential?

He's 28 years old and a career .257/.314/.365 hitter... I'd say the ship has sailed.

I'm not sure how I feel about this trade. We get Putz, who I love, but I don't see how the Mets pick up the option for next year.

Carp and Carrera are the types of prospects that could end up biting the Mets in the arse. Nevertheless, nothing significant was given up on the Mets side.

I guess I like the deal. Now to get rid of SS and to get a starter. Sheets would be awesome, but I'd be content with Ollie back.

I'm not sure how I feel about this trade. We get Putz, who I love, but I don't see how the Mets pick up the option for next year.

That was my main point earlier - Putz is a great talent, but unless you plan to deal him next year, there's no way the Mets are paying $9m for an MR in 2010... are they? Clearly, this is a going for it in 2009 kind of move, though I still wonder if the team's better of signing a Juan Cruz, or in the cheaper bracket, a Shouse or Brandon Lyon - and dealing the spare parts involved (Carp, Heilman, the two minor leagues for a mediocre SP)/

Actually, Mets fans - why wouldn't the Mets do (Heilman for Marquis plus cash): seems to make a lot of sense for a team that looks like its losing 2 SP's in FA (Pedro + Ollie)? Marquis isn't bad as back of the rotation SP's go, and on a 1- year contract with the Cubs picking up $3-$4M...

I really, really like the deal for the Indians and am surprised that people don't know what they were doing.

They traded an out-machine fifth outfielder (although one with an admittedly fabulous glove) for the potential solution to their massive hole at third base. If Valbuena's improvements at the plate in '08 aren't a total mirage, he plays second, Asdrubal slides to short, Jhonny plays third, and Andy Marte is gone.

If Valbuena can put up a league-average-ish OBP and provide a good glove (which he's alleged to have), the Tribe wins their part of the trade big-time. If not, they don't lose much.

And of course Cleveland wanted Joe Smith. Where do you think the first Mormon temple was built?

And patience is a skill that translates.

Is this really the case? Isn't it the case that patient prospects with not much power start "losing their patience" as they move up, and start getting challenged by good pitchers with better stuff, and better command?

NY Daily News:

A Mets official described the volume of trade talks with other teams regarding Mets relievers as "heavy" Wednesday with the inquiries also about Pedro Feliciano, not just the relievers the Mets would like to ship out.

Meanwhile, Minaya acknowledged the bidding for the Mets' top free-agent target, Derek Lowe, appears to have soared beyond the team's willingness to spend. Instead, Minaya laid reasonably optimistic odds - 50-50 - that Oliver Perez would be re-signed, while naming Niese and fellow rookie Bobby Parnell as fighting for the No. 5 slot in the rotation. The Mets have interest in free agent Randy Wolf, who went a combined 12-12 with a 4.30 ERA with the Padres and Astros last season

If Putz doesn't produce, it's a clear one year rental. If he pitches great, then you can either consider keeping him at $9 million (not absurd if he is giving you 80 lights out innings) or you can pick up the option and trade him. He would be a very hot commodity.

By the way, I really like this trade. I hate Heilman's face and I don't want to watch him anymore. Never respected Carp as a prospect. Hate Jason Vargas and am glad to never hear about him again. I like Joe Smith and Endy Chavez, both great at what they do but also very limited players. Haven't heard of the other two guys. Sean Green is nice depth and should be adequate in the ROOGY role.

This is interesting.

you can pick up the option and trade him. He would be a very hot commodity.


Good point.

Glad that we're not going to pay massively for Lowe. We still need a frontline starter, and while I like Wolf, he would not be enough.

I liked Smith a lot, but Green should be able to compensate as it appears that he can log more innings. Smith's weakness was how he would wear down by midseason.

Wait, are the Mets going to pay Putz $9M next year (his option) to be their set-up man? Wow. That would make him the highest paid setup man in baseball by some margin. Wouldn't signing Juan Cruz and doing Heilman for Marquis for cash been better, giving them a 5th SP plus a set up man who's just as good (and cheaper)?

Signing Cruz costs the Mets a draft pick and it's not entirely certain that he's going to be very cheap. You have to think he'll get about what Damaso Marte got from the Yankees. There's absolutely nothing wrong with keeping Putz for 2009 and trading him next offseason and that might be the plan.

My thoughts on the move:

Signing K-Rod and trading for Putz could make the Mets' biggest weakness in 2008 a strength in 2009. I'm not too upset with anything the Mets gave up here. Omar has done a good job rebuilding the bullpen.

I am really going to miss Endy play defense. He truly is the best defensive outfielder I have ever seen play. He has amazing range, a great arm, and can play all three positions equally well. He's just a joy watch play defense. Beltran is a GG calibre defender and he's a level below Endy.

I wish Heilman nothing but the best. He never quite lived up to our (unrealistic) expectations for him but he never made a fuss about being in a role he didn't like, and he never made excuses for his struggles.

Carp is a decent prospect but I think he's going to need to add some power to be an everyday player. He was hitting for a lot of power earlier last season but struggled with that aspect as the season progressed. With Evans, Murphy, and Davis all possible options at that position, I am not going to shed any tears.

Is anyone interested in signing Garland? He won't cost a draft pick and he's always been healthy. Depending on the number of years, he might be a good fit.

The Mets now need an Endy Chavez/Juan Pierre type to catch everything in the outfield in a pinch. I fear they will splurge yet again and acquire Pierre.

The Mets now need an Endy Chavez/Juan Pierre type to catch everything in the outfield in a pinch. I fear they will splurge yet again and acquire Pierre.

By fear, don't you mean "REALLY, REALLY hope" considering you are a Phillies' fan?

Seriously though, isn't that why Jeremy Reed was included in the deal?

Seriously though, isn't that why Jeremy Reed was included in the deal?

I thought it was because they needed somebody to take over Pedro Martinez' role of keeping the team trainer company all year.

I wonder if signing K-Rod removed the leverage on Seattle's side so that this deal could be done.

Otherwise, if the Mets knew they had an excellent chance at getting Putz, I would have preferred that they had gotten Wood on the cheaper deal than K-Rod.

Otherwise, if the Mets knew they had an excellent chance at getting Putz, I would have preferred that they had gotten Wood on the cheaper deal than K-Rod.

Really? Because I'd rather have K-Rod than Wood even leaving injuries issues on the side. Didn't Wood sign for 2y/20m? It's not like he was cheap.

I thought Rodriguez at 3/37 was a sweet deal for the Mets.

Kyle Farnsworth just got 2y/9.25 million dollar deal from the Royals. Relievers aren't going to be cheap this offseason.

What in the bloody blue hell are the Royals doing? Besides narcotics, I mean.

Well, Justin, they can't afford to overpay good free agents to the extent they'd need to in order to make them willing to play in KC. However, they can afford to overpay for Kyle Farnsworth. Signing Kyle Farnsworth lets the world know they are serious about something.

Also: This trade makes me a happy Mets fan. Minaya gave a lot of useful parts, but nothing that seems at all likely to really bite them in the ass. I would've liked to see them try to use Heilman as a starter, but that clearly wasn't in the plans.

If Putz doesn't produce, it's a clear one year rental. If he pitches great, then you can either consider keeping him at $9 million (not absurd if he is giving you 80 lights out innings) or you can pick up the option and trade him. He would be a very hot commodity.

Exactly. The Mets are moving into a new stadium and have their own TV network, so they have plenty of money to keep Putz at $9M if they want to. Otherwise, Omar starts calling around this time next year asking what people are willing to trade for a closer.

Kyle Farnsworth just got 2y/9.25 million dollar deal from the Royals. Relievers aren't going to be cheap this offseason.

Then they can just not sign them. Farnsworth isn't, you know, very good. The Royals are smoking crack if this signing is for real.

My first thought upon reading about this trade was "Not Endy! Not Endy!"

My second thought was that if your team trades 6 players and the only one you feel bad about losing is your 4th outfielder, it's probably a good trade.

Brutal from the Mariners' perspective. If this were 2002, getting Heilman and Gutierrez would be a real coup. In late 2008? Not so much.

As an Indians fan, I can't say I'm thrilled either. At first glance, Valbuena doesn't look like anything to be too excited about, and Smith seems like just another arm. I never loved Gutierrez, but he had value, and Shapiro had better feel pretty good about Valbuena to make this worth it.

It'll be interesting to see if there's another shoe left to drop. Otherwise, it seems like we're headed back into the corner OF abyss here.

As someone who doesn't watch many AL West games, what's the book on Reed and why is he a failure at the plate?

In other words, what happened to this guy -

Jeremy Reed

And how do his defensive stats compare to Endy's?

I think the thing with Jeremy Reed is that he was never really that good to begin with. His reputation is built on a great year he had in AA a few years ago, and Ken Williams dumped him at the peak of his value (and was roundly mocked around here for doing so).

Matt Laporta, come on down!

Well I think Dan and Peter got it pretty right from the Tribe's perspective. Shapiro is probably thinking that now, if he isn't able to get anything else done, he has three shots in the dark that might hit home rather than two for the 3B problem (Marte, Valbuena, Barfield). Although I am still sticking to my position that Peralta doesn't have the defensive chops to play third. But yea, our corner position/DH situation is getting really worrisome. We really need to A. cut bait on Delluci and B. get someone who has a little power and can take a walk. Am I the only person that thinks we should be going hard after Dunn and Furcal?

He's making about $4M a year right now. Most set-up men seem to top out at about $5M a year in free agency, for about 3 years. Most high level closers, which he has been before, seem to end up in the range of $10M to $15M, for 4 years. That's a huge difference in a guy's earning potential.

EDIT: cardsfanboy is probably right, in that I'm thinking a couple million higher than I should. Either way, even if it's a top out at $12M, that's still a lot for a guy to be giving up.

Well if he pitches like he did in 06 and 07 over the next two years, he will be signed to be someone's closer when he is a free agent and make the big bucks. Just because he doesnt get the saves for the Mets doesn't mean he'll be branded a set-up man for life, especially since he already has been a closer for over two years. If he pitches poorly, he wasnt going to get paid like a high level closer anyway. And if the people in this thread are correct, the Mets have a $9 million option for '10 anyway so he'll still be paid like a closer for that year.

But yea, our corner position/DH situation is getting really worrisome.

Hey, at least we didn't end up with Carp in this deal (as was implied in the original MLBTR post).

The thing that makes me really nervous is that we seem to have a lot of candidates, but no surefire solutions. Seems like right now we have Choo, Francisco, Dellucci, LaPorta, and Garko, in some configuration, to fill out 1B/LF/RF, which is kind of a similar situation to where the Indians have been the past, like, 3 years.

What in the heck do you do if LaPorta doesn't hit right out of the gate, Choo comes back down to earth, and the other three stay about the same? Does that not seem like a pretty likely scenario? Can you contend with sucking black holes in the FOUR most offensive positions (I'm throwing in DH because I'm working on the assumption that the old Travis Hafner is gone forever)?

I just don't see how Shapiro lets this offseason pass without finding a concrete solution for at least one of those positions.

I don't see any reason to believe Binghamton is a considerable hitter's park. What am I missing?

It's been called "Coors East"
which is an exaggeration, but among other Eastern League Locals it does tend to be hitter friendly.

He's hit well for his age/level- but he's reputedly no athlete and the scouts don't like him.

Omar Minaya is God.

Besides things a lot of others have said, I'd add that this gives the Mets the "spare" they lacked in 2008 when Wagner went down. If something does happen to K-Rod next year, the 9th inning isn't going to fall to Luis F'ing Ayala, that's certain.

Shipping Smith out reduces the OOGYness of the Mets' pen, which was a major problem in 2008. Bringing in Putz does even more to reduce that problem -- he is remarkably devoid of any substantial platoon differential:

v. RHB: .221 .292 .293 .585
v. LHB: .233 .296 .408 .703

Mike Carp is not a significant prospect, at all. This is not, by the way, me changing my tune now that he's not a Mets' farmhand any more -- I've been low on him all along. He was (at best) the sixth best prospect on that Binghamton team, behind F-Mart, Murphy, Niese, Evans, and Kunz -- and I think Kunz is a pretender. BA didn't rank him in the Top 20 of the Eastern League after the 2008 season, and here's why (John Manuel writing):

The bat does not look to be for real, according to scouts and managers I talked to. His bat looks to be for real against bad or mediocre pitching and much less so against LHPs (though he was better this year), and especially less so against good velocity. I couldn't find one scout or manager who liked him frankly, who considered him a regular. He doesn't earn points with his defense or field demeanor either. He had a good year offensively, I'll give him that. But no one I talked to seems to think of him as a big league starter at first base.

The Mike Carps of a minor league system grow like weeds. You have to pull them in a trade like this every once in a while to make room for the actual plants you want to grow.

But to be honest, I think the real reason for this trade is that Omar can tell Fred Wilpon he's bringing Sean Green back, and Wilpon will just assume it's the Jewish outfielder, and the old guy will be happy.

Sam, you are the bigger man for not yet having called out Dial for his "forget about closers coming to set up for the Mets" schtick in the other thread. Unless I've just pre-empted your already planned remarks :-)

Mike Carp is not a significant prospect, at all. This is not, by the way, me changing my tune now that he's not a Mets' farmhand any more -- I've been low on him all along.

admit it, you hate him.

The Mike Carps of a minor league system grow like weeds.

Top 10 2008, 22 and younger, AA, ranked by EQR (per BBREF Standard Translation):
1 Kyle,Blanks 80 .287
2 Mat,Gamel 80 .282
3 Ivan,De,Jesus 73 .280
4 Mike,Carp 72 .274
5 Dexter,Fowler 70 .283
6 Alcides,Escobar 66 .252
7 Austin,Jackson 65 .255
8 Angel,Salome 64 .298
9 Wilkin,Ramirez 62 .267
10 Cameron,Maybin 57 .266

Super Honorable mention:
Matt Wieters: Matt,Wieters 49 .342

Sam, you are the bigger man for not yet having called out Dial for his "forget about closers coming to set up for the Mets" schtick in the other thread.

Hah. No, it's all good. Chris didn't really think the Mets couldn't trade for a closer. I'll give him a pass.

As happy as I am about the recreation of the bullpen, it goes without saying that the rotation still needs Omar's attention. All the talk seems to be about just bringing back Ollie, which would be OK. It would not, however, be the best thing from the POV of bullpen preservation. Ollie is your classic pen killer, with his high pitch counts, early meltdowns, and need to get your relievers up "just in case" more times than probably any other starter in the game. Sigh.

admit it, you hate him.

Not so. I just try to be realistic about the real prospects of prospects. And everything about Carp just screams to me "limited ceiling." When a guy is totally limited to being a first baseman, and apparently isn't very good even at that position, he better be a hitter, with pretty massive power and unquestionably impressive strike zone judgment that utterly dominates AA pitchers. Can you say that about Mike Carp? Not even close. The numbers don't suggest he's got what it takes to make the jumps he'll need to make, and neither do the evaluations. Pass.

Not so. I just try to be realistic about the real prospects of prospects.

Unless his initials are DM

ah, Putz coming to the most Jewish city in the country. This was meant to be.

I agree with Sam that Putz ability to step in as closer is part of his value to the Mets.

Valbuena impressed me in his debut in Seattle last year. I think he should start '09 in the minors, but he could be ML ready before the end of the year.

As for Sam not calling out Dial, that opp should never pass: Hey Chris - forget about what?

When a guy is totally limited to being a first baseman, and apparently isn't very good even at that position, he better be a hitter, with pretty massive power and unquestionably impressive strike zone judgment that utterly dominates AA pitchers. Can you say that about Mike Carp? Not even close.

this guy

or

this guy

OK now I'm just being annoying.
Carp's #s for a 22 year old in the El are very good (not drop dead fantastic like Wieters obviously) Carp's #s for a 20 year old in the FSL were likewise very good (but again not drop dead fantastic).

Your case against Carp isn't so much the #s it's everything else. Basically the scouts say he's a 1B/DH (which means he's a bad 1B). The scouts also say he can't hit good pithing and feasts off bad pitchers (whenever I hear that I disbelieve it- the only in depth studies I've seen of hitters with that rep, Conine for one, showed that belief to absolutely untrue for those specific players).

Which brings me to Fullmer, a 111 OPS+ in 3000 PAs, a bit injury prone but was out of MLB after 1 bad year basically because he was a 1B/DH and unless he put up a 120 wasn't carrying his weight.
I assume that's your real problem with Carp- even if he does put up a MLB OPS+ of 110 (which BBREF's translations suggest he can) he's still not good enough to play.