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If they offered Maybin and Miller plus a lower level prospect, I think they could get Cabrera.
I think it would be ill advised to give a lot for the most overrated player in baseball when you've already got a DH.
I guess if you're selling high on Maybin and Miller, it balances out. Maybe. Of course you also need to deal with the Willis in the AL issue...
I don't know enough about Maybin and Miller to know if they're really overrated, but if they are, I see this as a deal with a lot of potential to be bad for both sides.
I'd think the Tigers would hope Cabrera could hold down third until the Sheffield deal expires, then move him to DH or first?
Whither the much-maligned, but really not so bad Brandon Inge.
He isn't even the most overrated player in this particular deal, Willis is. A great first half one season does not an ace make.
Cabrera has lost 15 lbs this offseason and is doing a heavy conditioning program so it wouldnt' surprise me if he has a better season next year.
The Tigers are trading for Jeter?
I don't think he is being marketed as an ace. He is what he is. An innings eater who puts up league average or better numbers. As I said before, I would be very surprised if the Tigers can swing a deal for both.
I think the ship has sailed on that one. I don't think anybody views Willis as an ace. I suspect he's not particularly overrated anymore after last year.
I'll believe that when I see it. He also wasn't any great shakes defensively when he came up either, so even if he does lose weight, it's not clear if it solves the defense.
Why don't you just stick to extolling Ellsbury and Buchholz as the next coming of the Messiah? Cabrera, weight issue or not, is the best hitter under the age of 30 not named Pujols. If the Tigers land him, they will be serious contenders for the AL pennant.
I remember differently, though my memory may just be clouded by the fact he was a converted shortstop. He wasn't great or anything, but I'm thinking he was somewhere in the average neighborhood.
Yikes. That's some big words for a 24 year old that has a career 900+ OPS and played his whole career in a pitcher's park. Is Cabrera getting a lot of attention this offseason? Yes, but that's because guys like him don't come around too much.
Inge, Porcello, Robertson and Granderson for Santana! [/pointless rumormongering]
Yeah, I went there too.
Nate Snell wasn't a star?! :-)
Whatever you're smoking, I want some.
No, but Charles Hudson surely was. 8-p
Touché!
Hudson's 6.35 ERA, with 23 K and 31 BB in 66 2/3 IP is truly dazzling. That 1989 Tigers team was really somethin'.
Carlos Zambrano - 4.65
Matt Cain - 4.66
Chris Young - 4.70
. . .
Oliver Perez - 4.74
Bronson Arroyo - 4.76
Dontrelle Willis - 4.76
That's some decent company for the secondary commodity in a trade.
How many star black starting pitchers have there been in the last 40 years? It's not like the position has been heavily populated with African-Americans.
Off the top of my head:
Fergie Jenkins
Vida Blue
J.R. Richard
Dwight Gooden
Dave Stewart
Dontrelle Willis
C.C. Sabathia
There may be a few I'm forgetting, but Detroit's failure to tap that particular market is hardly unusual.
ANd how could you forget Dock Ellis???
Also, for the lineup guys, don't forget the Tigers got Jacque Jones to play LF. I'm not saying Cabrera wouldn't be an improvement, just that they probably aren't looking to address the outfield right now.
That's a disproportionately high percentage of the cool names in MLB.
How the heck are you calling Cabrera that overrated? How many guys his age can hit like that?
Its an HOF bat, its hard to overrate that sort of thing.
As to the trade, the lineup would be incredible... but the farm would be reduced to Porcello and that's about it.
Not sure about this one at all.
Actually, in his last minor league year BA said he was the best defensive infielder and had the best infield arm in the Marlins system. His defensive tools in his younger, reduced fat days were pretty good.
Are you pretending 2005 didn't exist?
236 innings, 2.63 ERA (ERA under 3 in both halfs of the year), 151 ERA+, 22 wins, all-star, second in Cy Young, 11th MVP and #2 pitcher in MVP balloting
He certainly considers himself to be, yes.
ANd how could you forget Dock Ellis???
Dock Ellis has flashbacks of brilliance.
I was half-asleep when I read the intro and the first few comments and completely missed that Cabrera was part of the deal. It made total sense to me that Dontrelle was the most overrated player in baseball, and I was thinking about what an interesting idea it would be for an American League team to let Willis DH when he wasn't pitching. Not a great idea, probably, but the kid can definitely hit a bit.
If they do this deal, maybe the Tigers could send Inge to the White Sox, where he can play the role of "third baseman who on-bases .300 and pops the occasional home run". Because, y'know, I can't remember the last time the Palehose had one of those.
Fergie was Canadian, not trying to pick nits but blacks of the Caribbean seem to be dismissed easily and I was not sure if that includes Canadians.
Brien Taylor?
(Over/under on Yankee fan heart attacks due to above comment = 2.5)
Has anyone asked Gary Sheffield about this? It's possible that Snell isn't all the way black.
Vida Blue
J.R. Richard
Dwight Gooden
Dave Stewart
Dontrelle Willis
C.C. Sabathia
I see someone mentioned Ken Hill and Ian Snell. If you're going to count Jim Bibby you might as well count James Baldwin, he had a good career for someone who never really had a good season.
Darren Oliver
Jerome Williams (who is actually Chinese, African-American, Portuguese, Spanish, Norwegian, Indian, Japanese and Filipino)
Who else?
For future reference: Anyone from a CONCACAF country counts.
so how come Nobody Knows His Name?
Darren Oliver
Jerome Williams (who is actually Chinese, African-American, Portuguese, Spanish, Norwegian, Indian, Japanese and Filipino)
Who else?
That makes the list a lot longer. The Pirates had Snell, Chacon and Shane Youman just this year.
Robert Person
Pat Mahomes
Chuck Smith
Willie Banks and/or Blair, I forget which was which
The amazingly disappointing Dewon Brazelton
The bad Bobby Jones
Arthur Rhodes was a starter for a while, like Tom Gordon
Banks. Willie Blair's a member of the Reggie Cleveland All-Stars.
Also, Marvin Freeman, Anthony Young...
Man, even Suriname and the Guyanas? That's kooky.
Don't forget the ever-forgettable Jamie Brewington on the list of African-Americanadian SPs. Reggie Harris started a game once too, but that hardly counts.
I'm really amazed. All the deals the Marlins swatted down, and Maybin/Miller/four other guys are enough for BOTH Cabrera and D-Train? Really?
Either Dombrowski is tossing in some cash, has some compromising photos, or...man, I don't even have a joke. What a crazy deal.
ETA: I said "two" instead of "four". Still...who the hell did the Tigers even HAVE?
I don't know their system very well. They have Jeff Larish plus some pitchers. Eulogio de la Cruz and Dallas Trahern and maybe a few others. The rest of their prospects are mostly 07 draft picks AFAIK. Maybe the Marlins want Scott Sizemore.
Tigers are in win now mode, this is definitely a win now move.
Miller was the 10th best prospect and only 21. I guess if they played for the Red Sox or Yankees they would have been can't miss..
Very interesting. And here I was thinking the Tigers were going to stand pat. Maybe the Santana debacle put it in their heads that they had no time to waste. Either way, the AL next season is going to be a ####### dogfight.
I think the Tigers realize that by investing a lot of money in a draft pick they end up with not just the best amateur player available, but a great trading chip, even if they don't have any need for a player at that draft pick's position. And they did it again the following year, with Porcello.
Hank Aaron (950) *
Ken Griffey (917)
Frank Robinson (911) *
Orlando Cepeda (910) *
Hal Trosky (902)
Joe Medwick (894) *
Al Kaline (893) *
Mickey Mantle (892) *
Andruw Jones (882)
Vladimir Guerrero (879)
Which one of those guys makes Cabrera so overrated? So he's not much defensively. I've watched him; he's not Pedro Guerrero or Jim Ray Hart bad at 3B. He could last there another year or so. Then he plays 1B or DH. He could certainly play LF as well as Manny or Dunn. I don't see the downside for the Tigers here unless it's the dough, and I think they have plenty of that. The Tigers are in win now mode. Willis may not be an ace but he's a step forward from Chad Durbin. He's coming off his worst year, playing in front of a bad team. Worth the stretch.
The Tigers still have minor league pitching, and DD will get more pronto. They have no big deal position prospects besides Maybin. Cabrera fills the role of young bat to build around nicely.
At this point, I wonder if they are regretting the I-Rod option - moving Inge to C would have made a lot more sense.
No he wasn't. This trade is ####### ridiculous. #### the Florida Marlins. What a worthless ####### piece of #### franchise.
Yankees-Indians-Tigers
Angels
Big Ass Gap
No one else counts
The more I think about this deal, the lousier it looks. They have 2 years of Cabrera left, but its a deal now time for the Marlins as they don't want to pay him $10 mil in arb.
Sure, go ahead with ur ####### $20 mil payroll, and then blame the people for not coming to the games, and then charge the ####### people for building you a stadium so you can make more $.
####### Bud and his cronies.
What would you think of trading Maybin + someone like Miller and a lower prospect for Miguel Cabrera? With Granderson we don't need Maybin *that* badly, and now is our chance to go big, plus Cabrera fits with the team much better than anyone since LF, 3B, and eventually 1B and DH is where we would need to improve on.
Have Miggy share time between 3B and LF for a few years, gradually sihft to 1B/DH once Sheff, and later Guillen wind down. Cabrera is a on a solid hall of fame trajectory and acquiring a bat like his only happens once a generation. Though we would probably give away a bit on D, especially when he takes playing time from Brando, but now is the time to pull out all the stops.
I also added this the next day:
I think my my scenario, with Miggy, Brando would still be an important part of the team. Not sure about the platoon splits (and Jacque Jones would be a little redundant in this plan) but I could see Brando sharing time at 3B, SS, and maybe LF, giving Edgar some rest to keep healthy and platooning with Thames (possibly). Miggy would be in the lineup everyday playing either 3B, LF or DH (if Sheff's shoulder or anything acts up). And Thames would play about the same amount as he did last year either at LF, 1B, or DH. Brando would play late innings when leading at 3B, and we would always have a rock solid bench.
...So thats my banter as a Tigers fan, I have to say if this is true I will have to investigate if DD has a trojan on my computer or something.
Yankees-Indians-Tigers
Angels
Big Ass Gap
No one else counts
How exactly do the Yankees get above the Angels?
Coming into today, I pegged it:
1. Red Sox
2. Angels/Indians
4. Yankees/Tigers
Dunno how this changes things.
other players in the deal:
but possibilities are RHP Dallas Trahern, RHP Eulogio De La Cruz, 1B Jeff Larish, 2B Scott Sizemore and INF Michael Hollimon.
Here's the REALLY scary thing:
One of those teams is missing the playoffs.
Who the hell would YOU pick?
Has to be Red Sox-Tigers as the top dogs.
Only thing is that if the Tigers trade away Trahern/Tata, they are leaving themselves precious little room to deal with injury/ineffectiveness.
Rotation would be Verlander/Bonderman/Willis/Rogers/Robertson with Durbin.
And their bullpen is kinda shaky.
But man, they might have the best offence in the league now.
Because they have more resources to fill whatever gaps they might have, even though the roster doesn't look better right now, maybe?
I think it's a pick 'em at this point between the Angels/Indians/Tigers/Yankees group, with the red Sox a half step ahead.
All are easily better than any NL team.
Manny and Dunn are awful fielders, and it significantly impairs their value. Coco Crisp was probably about as valuable a player this year as Manny, largely because of defense. It doesn't take particularly large estimates of defensive value even to reach these levels.
Cabrera was -24 defensively per Dewan, which is completely consistent with scouting reports and the like. That renders him as being 23 runs better than your average 3B net - which is good, but hardly an elite talent. That's less value than Ryan Zimmerman provided this year probably, and again, if you go by Dewan, only about a win better than Inge. None of these estimates are based on defensive numbers which are inconsistent with defensive reps.
Defense matters. It's a real factor. As Gassko put it:
So what happens to Inge?
But they are upgrading from Inge to Miggy, Guillen/Casey to Renteria/Guillen, and they are likely to get better production from a platoon of Thames/Jones
Tigers have a good offense, it is going to be streaky though at times.
Cabrera seems like a natural 1B to me, and lord knows the Tigers don't have #### for 1B, and it's been a problem for a while. Willis is a pretty good pitcher. Given that they're giving up nobody -- nobody -- who made a positive contribution in the bigs last year, this makes the Tigers what? Nine, ten wins better than last season? More? And the amazing thing is, they pretty much had to do this to keep pace with the top four teams in the league, three of which swim in money like Scrooge McDuck and the other of which is just likely to get better based on player development alone.
This trade is spicy, and I'd like it better for the Marlins if I really believed they would ever actually attempt to win a World Series again. Unforuntately, that's unlikely. See ya in six years, boys, because I'll probably forget all about ya until then.
Beinfest usually does a great job of picking prospects even in deals where he has little leverage.
I doubt Polanco's going to hit .340 again next year, either.
Honestly, the Yankees look like the most likely to miss - They're counting on magic superstar dust for a couple of rookie pitchers and hoping a couple of old guys will hold it together for a last gasp. A historically good left side of the infield and a good closer probably makes the Yankees, as a team, fairly overrated.
Of course, they have the bad luck to be in the AL East. Between Boston and the Number 2-with-a-bullet Sunny Rays, NYY is looking at third place next year. Heh-heh.
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