Wow...a star black starting pitcher in Detroit! Who was the last one, Earl Wilson?

I am dubious, to say the least.

It would be best advised for the Tigers to sell high on Maybin and relatively high on Miller.

I would predict bad things for a Dontrelle Willis to the AL move...

I dont see the Tigers having enough to get Both Willis and Cabrera.

If they offered Maybin and Miller plus a lower level prospect, I think they could get Cabrera.

It would be best advised for the Tigers to sell high on Maybin and relatively high on Miller.

I think it would be ill advised to give a lot for the most overrated player in baseball when you've already got a DH.

I guess if you're selling high on Maybin and Miller, it balances out. Maybe. Of course you also need to deal with the Willis in the AL issue...

I don't know enough about Maybin and Miller to know if they're really overrated, but if they are, I see this as a deal with a lot of potential to be bad for both sides.

I would have to believe the Marlins could do better trading Willis and Cabrera separately. Or does Willis bad 2007 and arb status make him a negative a'la Mike Lowell in the Josh Beckett trade (yes, I realize that Lowell worked out really well for the Red Sox)?

I think it would be ill advised to give a lot for the most overrated player in baseball when you've already got a DH.

I'd think the Tigers would hope Cabrera could hold down third until the Sheffield deal expires, then move him to DH or first?

Whither the much-maligned, but really not so bad Brandon Inge.

Shouldn't NL teams value Dontrelle more than AL teams b/c of his ability to hit?

Inge seems like a natural 3B pickup for the Twins, doesn't he?

I think it would be ill advised to give a lot for the most overrated player in baseball when you've already got a DH.

He isn't even the most overrated player in this particular deal, Willis is. A great first half one season does not an ace make.

Cabrera has lost 15 lbs this offseason and is doing a heavy conditioning program so it wouldnt' surprise me if he has a better season next year.

I think it would be ill advised to give a lot for the most overrated player in baseball when you've already got a DH.

The Tigers are trading for Jeter?

He isn't even the most overrated player in this particular deal, Willis is. A great first half one season does not an ace make.

I don't think he is being marketed as an ace. He is what he is. An innings eater who puts up league average or better numbers. As I said before, I would be very surprised if the Tigers can swing a deal for both.

He isn't even the most overrated player in this particular deal, Willis is. A great first half one season does not an ace make.

I think the ship has sailed on that one. I don't think anybody views Willis as an ace. I suspect he's not particularly overrated anymore after last year.

Cabrera has lost 15 lbs this offseason and is doing a heavy conditioning program so it wouldnt' surprise me if he has a better season next year.

I'll believe that when I see it. He also wasn't any great shakes defensively when he came up either, so even if he does lose weight, it's not clear if it solves the defense.

I think it would be ill advised to give a lot for the most overrated player in baseball when you've already got a DH.

Why don't you just stick to extolling Ellsbury and Buchholz as the next coming of the Messiah? Cabrera, weight issue or not, is the best hitter under the age of 30 not named Pujols. If the Tigers land him, they will be serious contenders for the AL pennant.

I'll believe that when I see it. He also wasn't any great shakes defensively when he came up either, so even if he does lose weight, it's not clear if it solves the defense.

I remember differently, though my memory may just be clouded by the fact he was a converted shortstop. He wasn't great or anything, but I'm thinking he was somewhere in the average neighborhood.

No I wouldn't expect his defense to be good even if he gets in shape. I can agree with that for sure.

I think it would be ill advised to give a lot for the most overrated player in baseball when you've already got a DH.

Yikes. That's some big words for a 24 year old that has a career 900+ OPS and played his whole career in a pitcher's park. Is Cabrera getting a lot of attention this offseason? Yes, but that's because guys like him don't come around too much.

I am wondering why the Tigers think they need another unpredictable left-handed starter.

Inge seems like a natural 3B pickup for the Twins, doesn't he?

Inge, Porcello, Robertson and Granderson for Santana! [/pointless rumormongering]

A few years ago, it could have been Blockbuster's for Dominos.

"The Tigers are trading for Jeter?"

Yeah, I went there too.

Wow...a star black starting pitcher in Detroit! Who was the last one, Earl Wilson?

Nate Snell wasn't a star?! :-)

I think it would be ill advised to give a lot for the most overrated player in baseball when you've already got a DH.

Whatever you're smoking, I want some.

Nate Snell wasn't a star?! :-)

No, but Charles Hudson surely was. 8-p

Nate Snell wasn't a star?! :-)

No, but Charles Hudson surely was. 8-p

Touché!

Hudson's 6.35 ERA, with 23 K and 31 BB in 66 2/3 IP is truly dazzling. That 1989 Tigers team was really somethin'.

2007 xFIP numbers, courtesy of THT:

Carlos Zambrano - 4.65
Matt Cain - 4.66
Chris Young - 4.70
. . .
Oliver Perez - 4.74
Bronson Arroyo - 4.76
Dontrelle Willis - 4.76

That's some decent company for the secondary commodity in a trade.

Wouldn't the Tigers just slot Cabrera into 1B?

Nevermind, forgot Guillen is the 1B now. Well, Cabrera still looks like a fit in LF yes? (heck, Sheff can probably still play LF)

I love the disregard for defense here. If you have a DH spot, then sure, go ahead and trade the farm for Cabrera, but if you're going to use Miguel Cabrera at 3B, then yes, I think you're getting a drastically overvalued commodity.

I was thinking LF too; Detroit would be scary with Granderson, Guillen, Maggs, Sheffield, Cabrera, Polanco, I-Rod, Inge.....

Wow...a star black starting pitcher in Detroit! Who was the last one, Earl Wilson?

How many star black starting pitchers have there been in the last 40 years? It's not like the position has been heavily populated with African-Americans.

Off the top of my head:

Fergie Jenkins
Vida Blue
J.R. Richard
Dwight Gooden
Dave Stewart
Dontrelle Willis
C.C. Sabathia

There may be a few I'm forgetting, but Detroit's failure to tap that particular market is hardly unusual.

Jim Bibby had flashes of brilliance.

ANd how could you forget Dock Ellis???

Ian Snell's black, right? (Or at least partly.) He's a borderline star. Tom Gordon was a good starter for a few years.

Also, for the lineup guys, don't forget the Tigers got Jacque Jones to play LF. I'm not saying Cabrera wouldn't be an improvement, just that they probably aren't looking to address the outfield right now.

Fergie Jenkins
Vida Blue
J.R. Richard
Dwight Gooden
Dave Stewart
Dontrelle Willis
C.C. Sabathia

That's a disproportionately high percentage of the cool names in MLB.

Dock Ellis I'll grant. Snell could get there. I'd put Bibby in a class with Gordon and Boyd as starters who had some good seasons, though I'd hesitate to call them stars (Gordon probably had some star reliever seasons). Obviously, much depends on your definition of "star."

"I think it would be ill advised to give a lot for the most overrated player in baseball when you've already got a DH."

How the heck are you calling Cabrera that overrated? How many guys his age can hit like that?
Its an HOF bat, its hard to overrate that sort of thing.

I think the Tigers are a serious contender now.
As to the trade, the lineup would be incredible... but the farm would be reduced to Porcello and that's about it.
Not sure about this one at all.

"He also wasn't any great shakes defensively when he came up either, so even if he does lose weight, it's not clear if it solves the defense."

Actually, in his last minor league year BA said he was the best defensive infielder and had the best infield arm in the Marlins system. His defensive tools in his younger, reduced fat days were pretty good.

"He isn't even the most overrated player in this particular deal, Willis is. A great first half one season does not an ace make."

Are you pretending 2005 didn't exist?
236 innings, 2.63 ERA (ERA under 3 in both halfs of the year), 151 ERA+, 22 wins, all-star, second in Cy Young, 11th MVP and #2 pitcher in MVP balloting

Ken Hill was really good for a while.

Bob Gibson says "Hi" from 1967.

"Ian Snell's black, right?"

He certainly considers himself to be, yes.

Jim Bibby had flashes of brilliance.

ANd how could you forget Dock Ellis???

Dock Ellis has flashbacks of brilliance.

I think it would be ill advised to give a lot for the most overrated player in baseball when you've already got a DH.

I was half-asleep when I read the intro and the first few comments and completely missed that Cabrera was part of the deal. It made total sense to me that Dontrelle was the most overrated player in baseball, and I was thinking about what an interesting idea it would be for an American League team to let Willis DH when he wasn't pitching. Not a great idea, probably, but the kid can definitely hit a bit.

If they do this deal, maybe the Tigers could send Inge to the White Sox, where he can play the role of "third baseman who on-bases .300 and pops the occasional home run". Because, y'know, I can't remember the last time the Palehose had one of those.

How many star black starting pitchers have there been in the last 40 years? It's not like the position has been heavily populated with African-Americans.

Off the top of my head:

Fergie Jenkins
Vida Blue
J.R. Richard
Dwight Gooden
Dave Stewart
Dontrelle Willis
C.C. Sabathia

Fergie was Canadian, not trying to pick nits but blacks of the Caribbean seem to be dismissed easily and I was not sure if that includes Canadians.

That would be awesome, I know Willis is just an average inning-eater, but when the Tigers were trotting out Chad Durbin every fifth day I would take Willis over that. Cabrera is what he is, Tigers need to build around a great young hitter and Maybin is no sure thing. And don't trade Inge...just let him be super-sub.

How many star black starting pitchers have there been in the last 40 years? It's not like the position has been heavily populated with African-Americans.

Brien Taylor?

(Over/under on Yankee fan heart attacks due to above comment = 2.5)

He certainly considers himself to be, yes.

Has anyone asked Gary Sheffield about this? It's possible that Snell isn't all the way black.

Fergie Jenkins
Vida Blue
J.R. Richard
Dwight Gooden
Dave Stewart
Dontrelle Willis
C.C. Sabathia

I see someone mentioned Ken Hill and Ian Snell. If you're going to count Jim Bibby you might as well count James Baldwin, he had a good career for someone who never really had a good season.

There are hardly any NON-star African-Americanadian starting pitchers. In recent years, to those listed above you could add:

Darren Oliver
Jerome Williams (who is actually Chinese, African-American, Portuguese, Spanish, Norwegian, Indian, Japanese and Filipino)

Who else?

James Baldwin had a few decent years. Tom Gordon was a pretty good starter for a little while.

Fergie was Canadian, not trying to pick nits but blacks of the Caribbean seem to be dismissed easily and I was not sure if that includes Canadians.

For future reference: Anyone from a CONCACAF country counts.

Chacon

For future reference: Anyone from a CONCACAF country counts.

If that were true this list would be a lot longer.

James Baldwin had a few decent years.

so how come Nobody Knows His Name?

There are hardly any NON-star African-Americanadian starting pitchers. In recent years, to those listed above you could add:

Darren Oliver
Jerome Williams (who is actually Chinese, African-American, Portuguese, Spanish, Norwegian, Indian, Japanese and Filipino)

Who else?

That makes the list a lot longer. The Pirates had Snell, Chacon and Shane Youman just this year.
Robert Person
Pat Mahomes
Chuck Smith
Willie Banks and/or Blair, I forget which was which
The amazingly disappointing Dewon Brazelton
The bad Bobby Jones
Arthur Rhodes was a starter for a while, like Tom Gordon

Edwin Jackson

Willie Banks and/or Blair, I forget which was which

Banks. Willie Blair's a member of the Reggie Cleveland All-Stars.

Also, Marvin Freeman, Anthony Young...

Mike Harkey...Kevin Foster...Lynn McGlothen

For future reference: Anyone from a CONCACAF country counts.

Man, even Suriname and the Guyanas? That's kooky.

Don't forget the ever-forgettable Jamie Brewington on the list of African-Americanadian SPs. Reggie Harris started a game once too, but that hardly counts.

The AL only gets stronger.

MLB.com says deal is "on the verge" of completion.

I'm really amazed. All the deals the Marlins swatted down, and Maybin/Miller/four other guys are enough for BOTH Cabrera and D-Train? Really?

Either Dombrowski is tossing in some cash, has some compromising photos, or...man, I don't even have a joke. What a crazy deal.

ETA: I said "two" instead of "four". Still...who the hell did the Tigers even HAVE?

Rotoworld says Maybin/Miller and four other guys.

I don't know their system very well. They have Jeff Larish plus some pitchers. Eulogio de la Cruz and Dallas Trahern and maybe a few others. The rest of their prospects are mostly 07 draft picks AFAIK. Maybe the Marlins want Scott Sizemore.

Awesome. I have to say Dallas Trahern is included...I have no idea who else will be in there.

Tigers are in win now mode, this is definitely a win now move.

Well, look, given that they're not contending and that they don't want to pay anybody, they're a lot better off with Miller than with Willis. Still, sweet Jesus, is Maybin really supposed to be that good??? Even winning the other part of the trade, they are still hanging a whole hell of a lot on that one guy, when you're trading Miguel Cabrera for him. (I'm assuming the "four other guys" are flotsam and jetsam; I guess we'll see.)

Maybin was seen as the 6th best prospect before 2007 and is only 20 years old. I did not realize Maybin was seen as an average player.

Miller was the 10th best prospect and only 21. I guess if they played for the Red Sox or Yankees they would have been can't miss..

Great job by the Tigers. Congrats.

Yes, when I questioned Maybin's value relative to MIGUEL CABRERA, that was the equivalent of my saying Maybin was "average." Fine job.

Cripes. I still can't get over this deal. The Tigers obviously have realized the gap is widening in the AL and they had to make a move before Sheffield falls off a cliff and whatever crazy magic that restored Magglio's health wears off. That lineup is going to be even scarier. And say what you want about D-Train, but if he can eat up innings at anywhere near 110 or 120 ERA+, that'll be a damn sight better than what the Tigers trotted out this season.

Very interesting. And here I was thinking the Tigers were going to stand pat. Maybe the Santana debacle put it in their heads that they had no time to waste. Either way, the AL next season is going to be a ####### dogfight.

Why would anyone even support the Marlins? This is sickening.

Miller is not a can't-miss prospect, because he's a pitcher, but he was almost as touted as Mark Prior when he was drafted.

I think the Tigers realize that by investing a lot of money in a draft pick they end up with not just the best amateur player available, but a great trading chip, even if they don't have any need for a player at that draft pick's position. And they did it again the following year, with Porcello.

Top 10 similar batters to Miguel Cabrera through age 24:

Hank Aaron (950) *
Ken Griffey (917)
Frank Robinson (911) *
Orlando Cepeda (910) *
Hal Trosky (902)
Joe Medwick (894) *
Al Kaline (893) *
Mickey Mantle (892) *
Andruw Jones (882)
Vladimir Guerrero (879)

Which one of those guys makes Cabrera so overrated? So he's not much defensively. I've watched him; he's not Pedro Guerrero or Jim Ray Hart bad at 3B. He could last there another year or so. Then he plays 1B or DH. He could certainly play LF as well as Manny or Dunn. I don't see the downside for the Tigers here unless it's the dough, and I think they have plenty of that. The Tigers are in win now mode. Willis may not be an ace but he's a step forward from Chad Durbin. He's coming off his worst year, playing in front of a bad team. Worth the stretch.

The Tigers still have minor league pitching, and DD will get more pronto. They have no big deal position prospects besides Maybin. Cabrera fills the role of young bat to build around nicely.

Wow. I think the Marlins stole the farm here - IMO, Miller will be better than Willis by year-end at latest. The 4 other prospects seems like extreme overkill, but did the Tigers have anything left after the Renteria deal?

At this point, I wonder if they are regretting the I-Rod option - moving Inge to C would have made a lot more sense.

Miller is not a can't-miss prospect, because he's a pitcher, but he was almost as touted as Mark Prior when he was drafted.

No he wasn't. This trade is ####### ridiculous. #### the Florida Marlins. What a worthless ####### piece of #### franchise.

Red Sox
Yankees-Indians-Tigers
Angels

Big Ass Gap

No one else counts

Can we please get rid of Loria and Samson? They make me feel positively murderous. ARGHHH
The more I think about this deal, the lousier it looks. They have 2 years of Cabrera left, but its a deal now time for the Marlins as they don't want to pay him $10 mil in arb.
Sure, go ahead with ur ####### $20 mil payroll, and then blame the people for not coming to the games, and then charge the ####### people for building you a stadium so you can make more $.
####### Bud and his cronies.

How good is Willis going to be not being seen as the ace, but as the #3 pitcher?

And the AL continues to get stronger.

This is my argument to my Tigers fan friend...written on Nov 24:

What would you think of trading Maybin + someone like Miller and a lower prospect for Miguel Cabrera? With Granderson we don't need Maybin *that* badly, and now is our chance to go big, plus Cabrera fits with the team much better than anyone since LF, 3B, and eventually 1B and DH is where we would need to improve on.

Have Miggy share time between 3B and LF for a few years, gradually sihft to 1B/DH once Sheff, and later Guillen wind down. Cabrera is a on a solid hall of fame trajectory and acquiring a bat like his only happens once a generation. Though we would probably give away a bit on D, especially when he takes playing time from Brando, but now is the time to pull out all the stops.

I also added this the next day:
I think my my scenario, with Miggy, Brando would still be an important part of the team. Not sure about the platoon splits (and Jacque Jones would be a little redundant in this plan) but I could see Brando sharing time at 3B, SS, and maybe LF, giving Edgar some rest to keep healthy and platooning with Thames (possibly). Miggy would be in the lineup everyday playing either 3B, LF or DH (if Sheff's shoulder or anything acts up). And Thames would play about the same amount as he did last year either at LF, 1B, or DH. Brando would play late innings when leading at 3B, and we would always have a rock solid bench.

...So thats my banter as a Tigers fan, I have to say if this is true I will have to investigate if DD has a trojan on my computer or something.

Red Sox
Yankees-Indians-Tigers
Angels

Big Ass Gap

No one else counts

How exactly do the Yankees get above the Angels?

Coming into today, I pegged it:

1. Red Sox
2. Angels/Indians
4. Yankees/Tigers

Dunno how this changes things.

From rotoworld:
other players in the deal:

but possibilities are RHP Dallas Trahern, RHP Eulogio De La Cruz, 1B Jeff Larish, 2B Scott Sizemore and INF Michael Hollimon.

I think the Angels are making a mistake getting outbid for Cabrera. I understand holding on to your blue chips, but this seemed like the guy to spend them on.

Hankenstein's #1 Fan (NJASDJDH) Posted: December 04, 2007 at 06:36 PM (#2634591)

Red Sox
Yankees-Indians-Tigers
Angels

Big Ass Gap

No one else counts

Here's the REALLY scary thing:

One of those teams is missing the playoffs.

Who the hell would YOU pick?

Dunno how this changes things.

Has to be Red Sox-Tigers as the top dogs.
Only thing is that if the Tigers trade away Trahern/Tata, they are leaving themselves precious little room to deal with injury/ineffectiveness.
Rotation would be Verlander/Bonderman/Willis/Rogers/Robertson with Durbin.
And their bullpen is kinda shaky.

But man, they might have the best offence in the league now.

How exactly do the Yankees get above the Angels?

Because they have more resources to fill whatever gaps they might have, even though the roster doesn't look better right now, maybe?

FWIW, I would have said the Yankees were better than the Angels last year.

I think it's a pick 'em at this point between the Angels/Indians/Tigers/Yankees group, with the red Sox a half step ahead.

All are easily better than any NL team.

Which one of those guys makes Cabrera so overrated? So he's not much defensively. I've watched him; he's not Pedro Guerrero or Jim Ray Hart bad at 3B. He could last there another year or so. Then he plays 1B or DH. He could certainly play LF as well as Manny or Dunn.

Manny and Dunn are awful fielders, and it significantly impairs their value. Coco Crisp was probably about as valuable a player this year as Manny, largely because of defense. It doesn't take particularly large estimates of defensive value even to reach these levels.

Cabrera was -24 defensively per Dewan, which is completely consistent with scouting reports and the like. That renders him as being 23 runs better than your average 3B net - which is good, but hardly an elite talent. That's less value than Ryan Zimmerman provided this year probably, and again, if you go by Dewan, only about a win better than Inge. None of these estimates are based on defensive numbers which are inconsistent with defensive reps.

Defense matters. It's a real factor. As Gassko put it:

If a hitter is good enough, people tend to forgive his defensive flaws, even when in reality they take away a substantial chunk, if not most, of his value.

Is the Tigers offense the best? They don't have a lot of depth, and Ordonez isn't going to give you 8 wins above replacement with his bat again, and Granderson's a good bet to decline, as well.

So what happens to Inge?

Is the Tigers offense the best? They don't have a lot of depth, and Ordonez isn't going to give you 8 wins above replacement with his bat again, and Granderson's a good bet to decline, as well.

But they are upgrading from Inge to Miggy, Guillen/Casey to Renteria/Guillen, and they are likely to get better production from a platoon of Thames/Jones

That's an amazing grab by the Tigers

Hopefully Inge becomes super-utility player.

Tigers have a good offense, it is going to be streaky though at times.

oh ####, if Rabelo is one of the toss-ins.....Tigers have kicked ass. Thank you Dombroski, thank you so very much.

Man, the stove is HOT this winter. This is cool.

Cabrera seems like a natural 1B to me, and lord knows the Tigers don't have #### for 1B, and it's been a problem for a while. Willis is a pretty good pitcher. Given that they're giving up nobody -- nobody -- who made a positive contribution in the bigs last year, this makes the Tigers what? Nine, ten wins better than last season? More? And the amazing thing is, they pretty much had to do this to keep pace with the top four teams in the league, three of which swim in money like Scrooge McDuck and the other of which is just likely to get better based on player development alone.

This trade is spicy, and I'd like it better for the Marlins if I really believed they would ever actually attempt to win a World Series again. Unforuntately, that's unlikely. See ya in six years, boys, because I'll probably forget all about ya until then.

Well, I guess we'll have to see who the prospects are.

Beinfest usually does a great job of picking prospects even in deals where he has little leverage.

Is the Tigers offense the best? They don't have a lot of depth, and Ordonez isn't going to give you 8 wins above replacement with his bat again, and Granderson's a good bet to decline, as well.

I doubt Polanco's going to hit .340 again next year, either.

One of those teams is missing the playoffs.

Who the hell would YOU pick?

Honestly, the Yankees look like the most likely to miss - They're counting on magic superstar dust for a couple of rookie pitchers and hoping a couple of old guys will hold it together for a last gasp. A historically good left side of the infield and a good closer probably makes the Yankees, as a team, fairly overrated.

Of course, they have the bad luck to be in the AL East. Between Boston and the Number 2-with-a-bullet Sunny Rays, NYY is looking at third place next year. Heh-heh.

I wonder what the Yankees could have done to match this. Unlike most, I think Willis will thrive once he gets to play in front of a MLB defense in a real MLB environment, and Cabrera would have looked mighty nice as a 1B, RH bat in the Yankee lineup. Wouldn't the Yankees' Santana offer have topped this offer to FL from Detroit?