One problem with this idea... let's use the Giants as an example... why would they want to give up Matt Cain in exchange for paying a bunch of money (either in arbitration or long-term) to Prince Fielder when they could just try to give that money to somebody like Adam Dunn and keep Cain. The same logic that Doug Melvin would use in doing the trade would be the logic for why the Giants shouldn't (or wouldn't).

I cannot open the article so will ask what I have asked before, who plays first?

It's pretty basic. If you trade a guy you have to have an option, correct?

And Prince is the only legit lefty in the lineup. So there's that as well.

I know several at this site have suggested signing Dunn. But Adam has expressly stated he would never play in Milwaukee.

That and Prince's value is down a bit after last season. If Gamel tunes.up Triple A in 2009 then I would encourage Doug to seek out options next fall. In an optimal world Prince cranks out 45 homers and a .950 OPS while Gamel goes .325/.420/.550 at Triple A. Trade Prince for some gaudy baubles and put Matty at first.

That's a plan.

Now? I don't see a plan.

I'm not a Brewer fan, but I have to ask how many Prince Fielder's the organization has come up with. It seems to me that you would keep a guy like Fielder unless there is a very very compelling reason not to.

I cannot open the article so will ask what I have asked before, who plays first?

I thought Gamel was expected to ultimately need to move to 1B.

And the idea of the Orioles signing Edmonds to play 1B is just plain nuts. They'd be better off sticking with Millar.

Tom:

Weight concerns

Awful defense that is getting WORSE

Boras

I like Prince. But the red flags are getting redder

why would they want to give up Matt Cain

Rosenthal's strength is ferreting out information on trades, free agent signings, etc. His skills on that front are unmatched. But when it comes to meat and potatoes analysis, he's awfully pedestrian and indistinguishable from your typical beat writer.

One problem with this idea... let's use the Giants as an example... why would they want to give up Matt Cain in exchange for paying a bunch of money (either in arbitration or long-term) to Prince Fielder when they could just try to give that money to somebody like Adam Dunn and keep Cain.

I think Cain's a non-starter, but I could see Fielder to the Angels for Saunders or Santana, LAA really needs some offense, and they could lock Fielder up long term. Of course, that depends on Fielder being willing to sign an extension.

It probably makes more sense once Gamel proves he's ready, and the Angels prove they have no offense. Especially if Escobar can come back (so LAA has extra pitching), this could be a great deadline trade.

I think Cain's a non-starter

Actually, he is a starter.

they could lock Fielder up long term.

That could be a big mistake.

they could lock Fielder up long term.

That could be a big mistake.

At this point I consider both Howard and Fielder to be fools gold, and think both are due to be DHs in the next couple years.

The market for defensively challenged sluggers is low at this point. Burrell and Giambi took massive pay cuts in the FA market. Prince Fielder is entering his arbitration years and he should be paid less than Ryan Howard, but not all that much less. The arbitration market may be paying more then the FA market for a player like Fielder. I don't see that he has much trade value. And, as Harveys pointed out, who's on first?

At this point I consider both Howard and Fielder to be fools gold, and think both are due to be DHs in the next couple years.

I would tend to agree, but it's not clear all GM's will feel that way.

"But Adam has expressly stated he would never play in Milwaukee."

Huh. Any idea why he said that, Harv? Seems like the kind of town he'd enjoy.

At this point I consider both Howard and Fielder to be fools gold,

Surely we are only talking in a long-term contract sense, right? Which then I would agree. Howard did just win a World Series, seems pretty golden to me. Even if they both become DHs in the next few years, they would be excellent DH's, certainly no Matthew LeCroys.

But again, I am assuming you are talking about the sure to be inflated contracts their inflated bellies are about to dine on.

Vlad:

Adam was being interviewed about his specified desire to play in Chicago and used Milwaukee in a comparison/contrast. And Milwaukee was not described favorably relative to its neighbor to the south.

The fans, the ballpark and the city all got less than flattering reviews.......

At this point I consider both Howard and Fielder to be fools gold, and think both are due to be DHs in the next couple years.

I don't know, I have a really hard time writing Fielder off. His age 23 season in 2007 was pretty outstanding. I realize he has, umm, a bit of a weight problem, but isn't he just one great manager/veteran player away from being convinced to cut down slightly and fulfill his potential?

Then again, that might be the very definition of fools gold. Either way, I'd take him on my team.

Fielder's going to be real fun for a few more years, have a couple of good-but-injury-limited seasons in his late 20s/early 30s, and then essentially done by the age of 32.

Howard may have one or two more monster years left, but in all probability his best 3 year stretch is behind him. He's not going to be an elite hitter in his 30s.

For both, think Mo Vaughn.

The Nationals are out on Dunn, according to MLB.com, preferring to focus on trades for younger players (never mind that they have seemingly little to trade and that Dunn probably did not want to go to D.C. in the first place).

No surprise. It's going to take at least another two or three years before Washington becomes a desired destination for quality free agents -- and the reason so many of us are down on Jim Bowden is because he's never shown a track record in building a franchise, especially where pitching is concerned.

I am banking on Yost's departure being a boost to the team.

Boy, if they tank I will be regarded as quite the fool.

Of course, maybe I am already there....

You used to know them as the Milwaukee Brewers. Now they're Milwaukee Brewers Baseball presented by Potawatomi Bingo Casino.

In a first for the Brewers' franchise and for professional sports in Wisconsin, the franchise and the casino announced Thursday a multi-year presenting sponsor partnership that will cover virtually every aspect of Brewers baseball at Miller Park.

Isn't this the real story coming out of Milwaukee right now?

From the Milwaukee Journal Sentinal

You used to know them as the Milwaukee Brewers. Now they're Milwaukee Brewers Baseball presented by Potawatomi Bingo Casino.

In a first for the Brewers' franchise and for professional sports in Wisconsin, the franchise and the casino announced Thursday a multi-year presenting sponsor partnership that will cover virtually every aspect of Brewers baseball at Miller Park.

Does this mean Uecker will be replaced by Vince Van Patton?

Jack:

I didn't have the heart to submit.....

Larry Flynt's Hustler Casino is looking to similarly hook-up with the Angels.

the Rockies are probably out of money after acquiring right-hander Jason Marquis.

Man, that's pathetic.

Surely we are only talking in a long-term contract sense, right?

Right. I think Fielder could DH for another 8 years at least(so maybe about 10 or 11 more years of a career), but Howard won't last more than 4 unless he gets into shape.

I think Fielder could DH for another 8 years at least(so maybe about 10 or 11 more years of a career), but Howard won't last more than 4 unless he gets into shape.

Considering their 4.5 year age difference, this puts them on a similar career path. I tend to agree.

Howard won't last more than 4 unless he gets into shape.

He's already in shape. It's just that his shape is that of a pear.

"But Adam has expressly stated he would never play in Milwaukee."

Huh. Any idea why he said that, Harv? Seems like the kind of town he'd enjoy.

He's still pissed off that the air conditioning conked out at the Pfister a couple of years ago.

the franchise and the casino announced Thursday a multi-year presenting sponsor partnership that will cover virtually every aspect of Brewers baseball at Miller Park.

So much for that "rule #1... no gambling anywhere in baseball"-thing.

The mayor of Las Vegas must be getting stiff just reading about it.

"I think Fielder could DH for another 8 years at least..."

Well, yeah, but if he's DHing then he's not really playing baseball anymore.

Well, yeah, but if he's DHing then he's not really playing baseball anymore.

He'd be earning money and hitting balls, which is basically what he's doing now. That whole fielding thing is sort of a sideshow.

He'd be earning money and hitting balls, which is basically what he's doing now.

He's a prostitute?

Does this mean Uecker will be replaced by Vince Van Patton?

"I'm Max Keller!"

Or rather, "Ahm Maxpthg Thkellerth!"

EDIT: Dammit, I got him confused with half-brother Timothy Van Patten.

Does this mean Uecker will be replaced by Vince Van Patton?

Close... Iron Eyes Cody.

He'd be earning money and hitting balls, which is basically what he's doing now.

He's a prostitute?

Dominatrix.

He'd be earning money and hitting balls,

Like Sidney Crosby?

Where does Kenny Lofton rank on the 'Tim Raines Scale'. His offense was clearly worse but how much of the gap is closed by CF and the GG? He was also basically a regular every year besides the Yankee year, has a 79% SB rate (routinely 80+% in his prime, besides the Atlanta year of 57%...what happened there?). I know you guys generally discuss him as HoVG, and I agree, but it makes me wonder how long he can hang around on the ballot.

I can see Kenny hitting the ballot with Raines still on it and have several Raines opponents comparing him to Lofton due to similar career totals/rates.

Raines put up a .385 OBP when his lgOBP was .331

Lofton put up a .372 OBP when his lgOBP was .342


Raines put up a .425 SLG when his lgSLG was .398

Loton put up a .423 SLG when his lgSLG was .429


Since you mentioned it, Raines put up an 84% SB%, Lofton 79% SB%. Adjusting for era (because Lofton played in a higher run environment, his break-even is higher than Raines--not sure exactly on the difference), that's a pretty significant gap too.


I think that most advanced defensive metrics (non-PBP) indicate that Lofton was mostly just a league-average CF and that his defensive reputation and GGs were undeserved.

You may be right that HOF voters won't distinguish between the two (like Larkin might get lost in the shuffle), but there's really no doubt among sabermetric-followers that Raines was far-and-above the superior player relative to his league than Lofton. If Raines is not elected before Lofton appears on the ballot, hopefully mainstream discourse will have matured to the point where the writers understand the magnitude of the different eras.

And the idea of the Orioles signing Edmonds to play 1B is just plain nuts.

Oh come on now, don't you remember Darren Erstad? Oh, you do. Nevermind.

"Howard may have one or two more monster years left, but in all probability his best 3 year stretch is behind him. He's not going to be an elite hitter in his 30s."

Rooting for the Phillies, and I agree. That's why I don't understand the criticism the team receives from fans of other teams, when that won't sign Howard long-term, and instead go year to year (via arbitration). It is better for the team to lose arbitration ( $10 MM last year, so maybe $12-14 MM this year? ), then it would be to sign him for 5 or 6 years at $15 MM or more per year.

Also,if he remains productive, forget about trading him. Take him year to year, until he can be a free agent, offer him arbitration, let him refuse and sign elsewhere, get the draft picks (assuming the collective bargaining deal hasn't changed) move Utley to 1B , and move on.

Everybody keeps saying, "Who would play first?" I think Rosenthal's idea was signing Dunn to play first, not outfield.

Agree with everything you said, except for the last part about moving Utley to 1B. Why on earth would you want to do that? The guy is one of the best defensive 2B in baseball. He loses a ton of value if you start moving him down the defensive spectrum.

Surely we are only talking in a long-term contract sense, right? Which then I would agree. Howard did just win a World Series, seems pretty golden to me. Even if they both become DHs in the next few years, they would be excellent DH's, certainly no Matthew LeCroys.

I will not stand by idly and let you bash Matthew LeCroy. How dare you!

Fielder's going to be real fun for a few more years, have a couple of good-but-injury-limited seasons in his late 20s/early 30s, and then essentially done by the age of 32.

Howard may have one or two more monster years left, but in all probability his best 3 year stretch is behind him. He's not going to be an elite hitter in his 30s.

For both, think Mo Vaughn.

I share your skepticism on Fielder and Howard--I don't see them being productive past 33-ish. However, there have been some big, slow, unathletic TTO firstbasemen with long careers--think Jim Thome, Carlos Delgado, and Frank Thomas. (And further back, Killebrew, Stargell, McCovey, etc). Plus, Howard's career has been so unusual--almost anomalous in MLB history--you could make a good case that any career projection for him is useless.

However, there have been some big, slow, unathletic TTO firstbasemen with long careers--think Jim Thome, Carlos Delgado, and Frank Thomas. (And further back, Killebrew, Stargell, McCovey, etc)

I'm not sure about some of the others, but Delgado is in fantastic shape, and I thought Thome was too. Thomas also was athletic enough to play college football, until he hurt his knee, and Killebrew also had the reputation of being in damn good shape. Stargell, on the other hand, missed a decent amount of time almost every year of his career (career high of 145 games), especially in the second half, but he was still athletic enough to play almost 1300 games in the OF.

Fielder (and Fielder Sr.), Howard, and Moo Vaughn, however, are all fat.

Thome, Delgado, and Thomas were big guys, but they weren't especially fat in their early years and they were all well conditioned throughout their 20s, which allowed them to play effectively well into their 30s.

Mo Vaughn, Prince Fielder, Ryan Howard... these guys aren't just big, they're fat and have been for most of their professional careers.

EDIT: I owe you a coke, Ryan.

Ryan Howard may not be particularly agile or lithe but he doesn't strike me as fat.

Ryan Howard may not be particularly agile or lithe but he doesn't strike me as fat.

If you would prefer, you could change "fat" to "of significant girth" or "carrying a notable surplus of weight". While he doesn't look like he's trying to smuggle hams, he's definitely leaning heavily toward the portly side of things.

EDIT: B-R has him at 6'4" and 230 lbs. These listed weights always make me laugh - David Wells is listed at 225 lbs.

One why to distinguish "big athletic guys" from "fat guys" is whether or not they even had the ability to play another position other than 1B/DH early in their professional careers.

In their early 20s, Thomas could have played LF in his early 20s (he was a TE in HS/college--check out his triples in his first few years, he had decent speed for a big guy when he first came up). Delgado actually started as a catcher. Thome (and Giambi and Konerko for that matter) started out as a 3B.

Vaughn/Fielder/Howard could never played anywhere but 1B, and they do/did so pretty poorly.

Ryan Howard actually looks in decent proportion in those Subway commercials he does. First time I saw one, I thought he should have been fatter. Maybe a baseball uniform isn't the most flattering outfit for him.

In their early 20s, Thomas could have played LF in his early 20s (he was a TE in HS/college--check out his triples in his first few years, he had decent speed for a big guy when he first came up).

Sorry, but I can't imagine seeing him play the OF, even when he first came up. Yes, he was faster and not as big, but he always seemed like a 1b.


Thome (and Giambi and Konerko for that matter) started out as a 3B.

You don't have to be athletic to play 3b, just have to have quick reactions. And there's a reason none of them lasted there very long. Konerko is the slowest non-catcher in baseball, and has been for quite a while. Thome looks like a sprinter compared to him.

David Wells is listed at 225 lbs.

Which leg?

Sorry, but I can't imagine having seen him play the OF ever. Yes, he was faster and not as big, but he always seemed like a 1b.

He was never very graceful out there, even when he was young. That said, he was actually pretty lean as a youngster.

Killebrew's first four appearances were as a PR. And only one of those was for a catcher. Now granted we aren't talking about a really fast team but he could run a bit when younger.

And when he was playing for Billy Martin he attempted 16 stolen bases. Granted he was always on base that year.

Sorry, but I can't imagine having seen him play the OF ever. Yes, he was faster and not as big, but he always seemed like a 1b.

Because he's 6'5". If you get a chance, watch some tape from 1990 or 1991. He was extremely athletic and well-proportioned. He was maybe 225 lbs when he came up.

EDIT: Corrected years.

Sorry, but I can't imagine seeing him play the OF, even when he first came up.

Boog Powell played left when he first came up. And Frank Howard played it for years. Young Frank moved better than either of them.

Because he's 6'5". If you get a chance, watch some tape from 1990 or 1991. He was extremely athletic and well-proportioned. He was maybe 225 lbs when he came up.

I saw him play. Even though I was a Cubs fan, he was one of my favorite players. Like JRE said, he wasn't very graceful. But when watching him, I never saw him as anything but a 1b. Kinda like how Derrek Lee is a pretty good athlete, but he wouldn't look right in the OF. Maybe it is a height thing.

How popular is bingo in Wisconsin?

Who is the fattest (not heaviest) guy in the bigs right now? Chris Britton is up there, should he make the Pads.

Killebrew's first four appearances were as a PR. And only one of those was for a catcher.

Jorge Posada, of all people, pinch ran in the 1995 ALDS. And scored a rather important run, IIRC.

"Who is the fattest (not heaviest) guy in the bigs right now? Chris Britton is up there, should he make the Pads."

Sabathia? Dennys Reyes? Dmitri Young? Bobby Jenks?

Anyone who played Micro League Baseball (and thus the '55 Senators) probably remembers that Killebrew was listed as "IF", meaning he could play SS.

Sabathia probably weighs the most because he's so tall, but I dunno about the fattest. Whether or not Prince is literally the fattest, he and Brad Nelson are certainly the fattest pair of guys on the same team who play the same position. I challenge anyone to beat that duo.

Oh, and no longer active, but Jimmy Anderson as I'll always remember him.

There's also "Burger" King, although I'm largely judging based on his picture.

I challenge anyone to beat that duo

Nick Johnson & Dmitri Young aren't too shabby.

check out carlos lee

although i think that fer sher bobby jenks wins the fattest guy title

Speaking of some of these bigger guys, I seem to remember Frank Thomas charging the mound against the Red Sox some years back and he was intercepted mid way by Mo Vaugh in what I rememebr as a kid as a fantastic collission. Did I make this up, or does anyone else have any memory of something like that. I realize it's not likely that any one else would remember such a thing.

That casino is popular with NBA players when visiting Milwaukee. It got written up in an Australian paper when Bogut started his career in Milwaukee.

You could always check the seismic readings in Boston. I'm sure a collision like that would be captured.

Funniest mound confrontation was in the early 1990s when Kevin Rogers of the Giants body-slammed Benito Santiago of the Marlins after Santiago charged the mound. Afterward Santiago just sort of sat there on the field trying to figure out what had happened and his teammates, who had started to rush out onto the field, just stopped and started laughing at him.

The Robin Ventura-Nolan Ryan of course was memorable, but not as funny.

Speaking of some of these bigger guys, I seem to remember Frank Thomas charging the mound against the Red Sox some years back and he was intercepted mid way by Mo Vaugh in what I rememebr as a kid as a fantastic collission. Did I make this up, or does anyone else have any memory of something like that. I realize it's not likely that any one else would remember such a thing.

I can't say for sure it didn't happen, but I highly doubt it. One of the things Mariotti (and others) use to rag Hurt about was that was a timid player, for instance he never would run into the C at a home plate collision prefering to slide around the guy. So, while that would have been awesome, it most likely didn't happen. A couple of other White Sox fans I know don't remember anything like that either.

EDIT: No way Vaughn would have got to Hurt before he got to the mound, unless he was playing in the LH batter's box (and even then, he couldn't chase him down).

Killebrew's first four appearances were as a PR. And only one of those was for a catcher.

Jorge Posada, of all people, pinch ran in the 1995 ALDS. And scored a rather important run, IIRC.

Fat Brian Hunter famously (at least, I remember it) pinch ran in the ninth inning of a tied World Series game. He was promptly caught stealing. I blamed him for the series loss.

Looking it up... I guess I expected that Mark Lemke would have brought him in from second, if given the chance. Hey, Lemke was clutch!!!

EDIT: And yes, he was pinch running for Sid Bream.

I can't say for sure it didn't happen, but I highly doubt it. One of the things Mariotti (and others) use to rag Hurt about was that was a timid player, for instance he never would run into the C at a home plate collision prefering to slide around the guy. So, while that would have been awesome, it most likely didn't happen. A couple of other White Sox fans I know don't remember anything like that either.

IIRC, during fights Thomas would usually stand around and look intimidating, which invariably worked. I don't remember anyone trying to fight him.

maybe that was just a collission I wanted to have seen.

Speaking of some of these bigger guys, I seem to remember Frank Thomas charging the mound against the Red Sox some years back and he was intercepted mid way by Mo Vaugh in what I rememebr as a kid as a fantastic collission. Did I make this up, or does anyone else have any memory of something like that. I realize it's not likely that any one else would remember such a thing.

Very close.. it was George Bell, in a 1993 game. Number 8 in the video at this site: http://flashwarner.com/2006/03/best_mound_charges.html