If Liriano filed a grievance, he could seek either a restoration of major-league service time, financial compensation or both. His loss of major-league time already will prevent him from qualifying for salary arbitration with three years of service and almost certainly will prevent him from qualifying as a "Super Two" player as well.

I called this in yesterday's thread on Liriano. The Twins had/have no intention of bringing him up until he lost sufficient major league time in AAA so they could gain back the one year of service they basically lost while he was on the DL recovering from the TJ surgery. Sucks for Liriano, for sure. And didn't the Twins do a similar thing with Santana?

Santana spent 11 G/9 GS in AAA as a 23 year old after struggling as a 21 and 22 year old in the MLB.

I do think Liriano has a beef, at least from looking at the stats. I don't get to watch him throw in the pen before games.

And didn't the Twins do a similar thing with Santana?

Boy, I don't think so. The Twins burned up far too much of Santana's time in the bullpen. They even signed Kenny Rogers when Eric Milton's injury in 2003 conveniently opened up a spot in the rotation for Santana.

I do think Liriano has a beef, at least from looking at the stats. I don't get to watch him throw in the pen before games.

I think the Twins have a legitimate (or at least plausible) defense, though, in that their pitching staff has been effective lately. Brian Bass is the only player who clearly doesn't belong there, but the Twins can say that they don't want Liriano to work in relief, and that the rotation is too solid to make any changes. We all know that Livan is a weak link, but they can point to his win total as a reason to keep him in the rotation over Liriano.

I suspect the Twins probably are doing this to hold down the service time, but I can't see the grievance suceeding. They're 25-15 in their last 40 games. Seems like their answer to "Why not call him up?" is "Don't mess with sucess."

And I owe KJ a Coke. Dammit.

Liriano had allowed 5 ER or more in 3 of 7 starts before he started a streak of three good starts. Is it that unreasonable to wait a few more starts?

Liriano had allowed 5 ER or more in 3 of 7 starts before he started a streak of three good starts. Is it that unreasonable to wait a few more starts?

That's another reasonable defense they could use. He was very bad with the Twins early this season, and, until recently, pretty inconsistent at Rochester.

I don't think the Twins have to worry about the grievance succeeding, but they do have the problem of a talented young pitcher who's upset with the organization, which could become a pretty volatile situation.

The Twins had/have no intention of bringing him up until he lost sufficient major league time in AAA so they could gain back the one year of service they basically lost while he was on the DL recovering from the TJ surgery.

Then why did they call him up to watch him have his ass handed to him in April while letting him accrue service time?

Sucks for Liriano, for sure. And didn't the Twins do a similar thing with Santana?

Um no. They kept him in the bullpen longer than most people felt was necessary, but he was up in the Majors pretty much from the time he was ready.

Brian Bass is the only player who clearly doesn't belong there, but the Twins can say that they don't want Liriano to work in relief,

The same Brian Bass who Ron Gardenhire has suddenly decided needs to pitch in the 8th inning of one-run games.

and that the rotation is too solid to make any changes.

Well, Livan sure has a lot of solid mass. But he leads the staff in wins!!!!one!!!11!!! Wins are important. None other than Bert Blyleven told me so.

If Liriano is a AAA player, maybe it's time to take another look at replacement level. Also, I hope this costs the Twins the division.

Then why did they call him up to watch him have his ass handed to him in April while letting him accrue service time?

They are cunning in their evil-doing

Barring a total and utter beatdown by Norfolk tonight, he's going up by Sunday. Calling it now.

Totally forget what I just typed should I be wrong.

Then why did they call him up to watch him have his ass handed to him in April while letting him accrue service time?

I would think it was after that very unsuccessful stint that the Twins decided they didn't want Liriano going to arbitration this year. I'm not sure it has anything to do with losing a year of service to the surgery, but more that they aren't willing to take him to aribtration without getting another full season out of him. They would get that if he was effective starting in April. They don't get that by calling him up now.

The same Brian Bass who Ron Gardenhire has suddenly decided needs to pitch in the 8th inning of one-run games.

It's maddening, isn't it?

Um no. They kept him in the bullpen longer than most people felt was necessary, but he was up in the Majors pretty much from the time he was ready.

Santana was a rule V pick. They had to keep him on the 25 man roster.

I think the money they're basing a decision on is the money they've already agreed to pay Livan Hernandez, not the money they will eventually have to pay Liriano. Though I can see why it should make no difference to Liriano. The Twins should be pretty safe pointing to the rotation spot they gave him in April when Slowey went down, and for some reason I think Glen Perkins' claim to a rotation spot sort of caught the team off guard. I completely thought when Perkins got called up that it was a kill-two-birds situation where Perkins would pitch just well enough to keep the spot warm for a ready Liriano and then get sent to the pen.

I'm a Twins fan, so I suspect I'm prone to view the FO's moves in the most charitable light. But Liriano's April time in the bullpen really struck me as a genuine hope that he was ready to go. Either way, I hope this gets ironed out without too much official bickering.

Santana was a rule V pick. They had to keep him on the 25 man roster.

But they didn't have to have him on the Opening Day roster the following year.

Genske has no idea what he is talking about and this is sure fire loser if grieved. The union is likely just trying to scare other clubs into thinking twice before possibly doing this. In this case, a competitive team has a greater incentive to have the best guys in the majors right now than it does to screw guys on service. (That is, playoff revenue - even tickets sold during a stretch run - is far greater than the savings from deferring Liriano's arbitration.)

Then why did they call him up to watch him have his ass handed to him in April while letting him accrue service time?

I read a Sporting News article that said the Twins felt in spring training that he wasn't ready, but Liriano felt differently, so they decided to let him pitch in MLB and see for himself that he wasn't ready. He was supposedly more accepting the AAA demotion after getting knocked around early in the season.

I read a Sporting News article that said the Twins felt in spring training that he wasn't ready, but Liriano felt differently, so they decided to let him pitch in MLB and see for himself that he wasn't ready. He was supposedly more accepting the AAA demotion after getting knocked around early in the season.

That was my interpretation of the whole decision, as well. Still, it is hardly the act of an organization trying to save money.

Well, either the Twins are an organization trying to save money ... or they're baseball morons who think Livan Hernandez really is a better pitcher than Liriano.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they're trying to save money. (Fair enough, the most likely scenario is they're trying to trade somebody to open a spot.)

I've had Liriano on my Scoresheet team for two years, waiting patiently for him, and I have no other stake in either Liriano or the Twins. So I've really been hoping he could come back up and pitch well. And I've been thinking, after these last few good starts, "If he were my player, I'd bring him up after another couple good starts."

A grievance seems completely out of hand to me. It must be either part of a larger strategy on this issue of suppressing service time, or just plain grandstanding.

I have no idea where this is coming from - Liriano himself, his agent making a move, or the Union pulling the strings behind the scenes - but it's the worst possible test case to file a grievance over if it's a stalking horse for the larger "service time suppression" issue. The Twins gave Liriano his way at the beginning of the season and he tanked. He's been inconsistent in the minors. He's had a nice little run for THREE games. The vast majority of reasonable men would conclude that the Twins could fairly believe he still has something left to prove, especially given the reasonable functionality of the Twins' rotation.

It's not an easy thing for Minnesota to push Livan aside for now and bring him back to the rotation if Liriano is, in fact, unready for regular MLB time.

There has probably been some talk in the MLBPA about service time but this case isn't one they can win to set a precedent.

Liriano went 8 innings tonight for Rochester, giving up 1 run on 7 hits, 0 walks and 8 Ks. That is one run total in his last four stars. I think he's definitely ready, but I wasn't sure until a week ago....it seems egregiously petty to file a complaint based on a week's delay, especially with the All Star break falling in that week.


On to the actual issue....I don't think the article ever says that Liriano has to be a starter, just that he doesn't think he should be in the minors. I can see them not wanting to give up Livan just yet. But, the Twins have probably six relievers worse than Liriano, and two are absolutely horrible. It's hard to argue that he shouldn't be on the team at all, based on pure ability, and the tema itslef says they could use some improvement in the bullpen. Of course, calling up Liriano to the bullpen would mean demoting another player, which would delay that player's ability to go to arbitration in the future, so that player might want to file a grievance as well. I hope that MLBPA has a lot of lawyers.

I saw Liriano pitch in Durham last week. He struggled with his location early, but righted the ship fairly quickly and was dominant thereafter. I thought then that he was ready to go back up.

-- MWE

Ancient, irrelevant history what happened at the beginning of season. Liriano crashed and burned so logical to send him down. Not logical to keep him down.

It's the mo tho I can see their delimma. Livan with the old fart steady eddy discount (5 runs off the top) is one of their better pitchers...maybe Blackburn.

Isn't the most reasonable solution: Liriano --> rotation, Perkins --> long relief, Bass --> ??? (Profit!)?

It's clear that Liriano is back to being healthy and effective, but it's not clear for how long. Might as well have him throw those innings at the ML level. Perkins certainly doesn't have the track record to be immune to a move to the bullpen and has pitched well out of the pen in the past. If the Twins are really that concerned with losing Bass, maybe Breslow takes the bullet as Perkins can be the second lefty. If/when Blackburn comes back to earth or Livan is finally shown the door, Perkins slots back in as the #5 starter.



Also, Will, it's important to note that Gardy turned to Bass in the 8th inning of a TIED game in Boston. I just puked on my keyboard.

Isn't the most reasonable solution: Liriano --> rotation, Perkins --> long relief, Bass --> ??? (Profit!)?

I don't think so. I think any reasonable solution involves Livan Hernandez out of the rotation. Whether he's in the bullpen or on another team doesn't much matter to me.

Also, Will, it's important to note that Gardy turned to Bass in the 8th inning of a TIED game in Boston. I just puked on my keyboard.

Aaron Gleeman notes today that Bass leads the AL in relief innings and is on pace to approach 100 innings. There are so many things that need to be overlooked for Gardenhire to be considered a good manager. I don't understand how he's kept that reputation, both locally and nationwide, for this long.

The big problem the Twins face is the worst guys on the pitching staff (Boof, Bass, Livan) don't have any options so they either have to clear waivers or get released. They were willing to eat salary with Rincon but I don't think they want to give away the other 3 pitchers.

I think they're really hoping that Livan doesn't embarrass himself in his next two starts and they can find a home for him in the National League before the trade deadline. This would open up the slot for Liriano and be the best case scenario. Another scenario is Livan stinks it up and they decide to eat his salary, DFA Livan or put him on the DL and bring up Liriano. Either way I think they're waiting on Livan (who has the same agent as Liriano) to make the decision for them. I'm sure the decision will be made by the end of July which isn't that far away.

What the Twins are trying to avoid is cutting Livan, having a starter get hurt and having to move Boof back into the rotation or going to Humber in AAA. Livan's still a better option than their 7th best guy which is why he's still around.

Isn't it common for pitchers returning from Tommy John to experience a "dead arm" at some point in their rehab? Liriano is not a lock to be healthy the rest of the season. I can see why they would try to protect him as much as possible. There is absolutely no grounds for this grievance. The Twins are behaving like they always have behaved with respect to player development and there is no reason to believe they're doing anything except trying to win a pennant this year.

> There are so many things that need to be overlooked for Gardenhire to be
> considered a good manager. I don't understand how he's kept that reputation, both
> locally and nationwide, for this long.

His teams keep winning despite expectations to the contrary.

I think they're really hoping that Livan doesn't embarrass himself in his next two starts and they can find a home for him in the National League before the trade deadline. This would open up the slot for Liriano and be the best case scenario.

If this is the case, then one would think that the Twins might have communicated that to Liriano - "hey, we want you here, but until we move Livan we'd rather have you pitching in rotation in Rochester. Stay patient - you'll be here by August 1." - and Liriano wouldn't be filing a grievance.

-- MWE

Humber, by the way, has been removed from the starting rotation at Rochester. He's pitching right now in low-leverage relief.

-- MWE

I think the Twins were reasonable in sending him down.

Now? If I was a Twins fan, I'd be pissed that Liriano is in AAA and Livan Hernandez is apparently going to be given a shot at completing these trends:
ERA:
May: 4.20
June: 6.62
July: 7.84

K/IP
2006: 128/216
2007: 90/204
2008; 45/121

There's a great big serving fork stuck in Livan's back...
OH that's right, he's 9-6- he's on pace for 15-10, he's actually pitching well, he's a winner

Humber, by the way

Is he still losing velocity, or has it bottomed out?

Hey, wow, Danny Graves is pitching in Rochester, 22 Ks in 64 ip

shouldn't he, you know, be getting on with his next career? (In baseball or out)

His teams keep winning despite expectations to the contrary.

I think there's reason to believe that the Twins win in spite of Gardenhire, rather than because of him.

I think there's reason to believe that the Twins win in spite of Gardenhire, rather than because of him.

I thought most people and publications had picked the Twins to finish with a much worse winning percentage than they currently have (given that they lost both Santana and Hunter). Perhaps I'm mistaken.

I thought most people and publications had picked the Twins to finish with a much worse winning percentage than they currently have (given that they lost both Santana and Hunter). Perhaps I'm mistaken.

But why is it obvious that Gardenhire should receive credit for this? Isn't it possible that the team's ridiculously good offensive performance with RISP is playing a role? Glen Perkins, Nick Blackburn, Brian Buscher, and Alexi Casilla are all playing much better than any of those people or publications expected. Just because those players are overachieving--or were underrated coming into the season, however you want to look at it--doesn't mean that Gardenhire is winning ballgames for this team. His use of Nathan, Bass, and Rincon indicate otherwise.

Livan's been a total flake - quality start one night, gascan the next turn through the rotation. He can't get through a decent lineup twice but has done well bottom feeding against the worst teams on the schedule. I'm betting on gascan against Texas so if there's no quality start v. Cleveland on the 25th then Liriano will be back for the White Sox series at the end of the month at the latest.

I meant Mulvey, said Humber. I wouldn't be thrilled with counting on Mulvey or Duensing in a pennant race. Of course I'm also convinced Livan has to go. I'd rather have 12 starts of Liriano instead of 10 of Liriano and 2 of Livan but I can see why the Twins are hedging at this point. Conveniently, it also ensures that Liriano won't be a Super 2.

What the Twins are trying to avoid is cutting Livan, having a starter get hurt and having to move Boof back into the rotation or going to Humber in AAA. Livan's still a better option than their 7th best guy which is why he's still around.

I'm sure that's the Twins thinking,. but I'm not so sure that's true. Opponents are hitting an amazing .342/.368/.506 off of Livan this year, and a much more reasonable .292/.338/.437 off of Boof. That might not translate into ERA or wins or even ability to eat innings, but it's hard to say from that definitively that Livan would be more useful in the second half. Duensing and Mulvey at Rochester aren't going lights out, but they've been decent enough that they are possible options if a couple guys go down. Or they could, trade for a starter to fill out the back of the rotation if 1 or 2 guys go down or start to stink it up and they aren't pleased with the internal options. If Liriano might be a couple wins better than Livan, it doesn't make sense to keep Livan over Liriano indefinitely, just in case someone gets hurt, because in that case Livan might be a couple of wins better than Mulvey. That's like driving your jalopy that get terrible gas mileage, so you don't put too much wear on your new car that gets great mileage.

I am certain that if the Twins wanted to, they could find a team willing to take Livan. They might have to eat $2 million of his salary, but someone would take him. It's just a matter of wanting to move him and what they think they could get back. A decent start tomorrow might go a long way towards that. I hope Gardy has a short hook on him if he gets to the 5th or 6th without looking too bad.

and a much more reasonable .292/.338/.437 off of Boof

Unless Boof is another Rusch, he's not near;y as bad as his ERA this year...

Hey, wow, Danny Graves is pitching in Rochester, 22 Ks in 64 ip

He is in the rotation, which is pretty weird. Hes pitched in 4 A-ball games and 7 AA games this year (I guess on rehab) but then he has started while in Rochester despite only being a starting pitcher one other year of his career.

Rochester has some talent, just by glancing at the names, but several of their players are underachieving. I'm upset that the night I saw that team most of their interesting players didn't pitch or play