True or false: He'll get more HoF votes retiring now than he would by playing next year and adding to his stats.

Mussina is just faking retirement to shed his type A status.

He'll play next year somewhere else.

can't fault a guy for going out on top

happy trails, Moose

Mussina is just faking retirement to shed his type A status.

No, no. He's faking retirement to avoid steroids testing. /Kevin.

next year alone, who knows (see: Blyleven, Bert, and John, Tommy) and it won't matter. but if he plays 2-3 more years and gets to 300 wins, then false.

Mussina is just faking retirement to shed his type A status.
No, no. He's faking retirement to avoid steroids testing. /Kevin

you're both wrong

he's faking retirement to avoid an embarrassing scandal stemming from his excessive gambling

Aw, that sucks. This last season of his was probably my all time favorite performance out of a Yankee starter, it really was remarkable to watch him pitch this year. It was amazing to see him throw sharp breaking balls with such precision in any count and to see a righty with a normal delivery blow 87 MPH fastballs by hitters, just one year after he looked completely finished. Where and when he threw his pitches this year was what made him truly special this year, the man pitched brilliantly. I'm sad I won't see him any more, but at least I got to witness this last year.

Is kevin still banned? I mean he's irritating as hell, but I kind of have a desire to see the havoc he'd wreak on the Pedroia MVP thread. It would have been a perfect storm of belligerence, arrogance, fingerpointing, and flaming, and likely been a 1000 post thread. The last 500 posts being kevin's projections for Pedroia, each more ridiculous than the last.

"I really see Pedroia getting 5000 career hits" - kevin.

A wasted opportunity I tell ya.

Why did kevin get banned?

Or rather perhaps more precisely, what did he do recently that he hasn't done for the ~8 years Primer's been around?

This makes me sad. He was the SP for the very first game I saw in person, and I always appreciated the way he pitched. I've probably seen more games of his than anyone else's.

There was a thread the other day that talked about his career being a long series of just-misses. That's about right. I'm somewhat glad he's going out on a bit of a high, at least.

What a hell of a note to leave on. I may have been the last person on Earth to appreciate Mussina, but this past year made a believer out of me. Like Ol' Blue Eyes, he's doing it His Way.

And I'm glad to see that he doesn't feel the compulsion to scrounge for 20 extra wins. But by 2015 or so the BBWAA is just going to say the hell with it, we're turning the franchise over to the Hall of Merit boys, and not only will Mussina breeze right in on the first subsequent ballot, but all the HoM gossip will make the front page of The New York Times, and everyone here will be rich and famous.

So what are the best final seasons in history?

I'm drawing blanks - all I can think of is Roy Cullenbine, who hit in the .220's, I think, but had a terrific OBP.

So what are the best final seasons in history?

Barry Bonds, 2007.

So what are the best final seasons in history?

Koufax, 1966

Bonds' 2007 was pretty great. As was Ted Williams' 1960.

Some highly effective final years for pitchers.

The list includes only two since Koufax: Mike Sirotka of the bad labrum, and Roger Bailey, a Rockie who was maybe also injured, I forget (?) Before Koufax, you go back to Van Lingle Mungo and Bob Logan in 1945, journeymen who had one last good war season and were through. Monty Stratton is on the list. Bottom line, it is extremely rare for a pitcher to quit baseball completely voluntarily while still being this good.

Edit: the list can be made broader to pick up guys like Larry Jackson and Chuck Finley. Note how many left after 1945.

No love for Henry Mateo's 2006?

Kind of hard to beat Joe Jackson's 1920.

The man was excellent last year and it's great to see him go out on top.

Along the lines of Joe Jackson, there's Jim Devlin 1877.

My list, for MLB players excluding relief pitchers 1893-2005 (my dataset):

1. Sandy Koufax 1966
2. Joe Jackson 1920
3. Fielder Jones 1908 (not counting Federal League token appearances)
4. Happy Felsch 1920
5. Win Mercer 1902
6. Ray Chapman 1920
6. Dutch Ulrich 1927
6. Ted Williams 1960
9. Roy Cullenbine 1947
10. Will Clark 2000

Will Clark, 2000.

Edit: Too late.

Retiring this year would put Mussina in the same HoF class as Maddux, which won't exactly encourage a first-year election for Moose.

Mantle had a good final season, albeit one disguised by a low batting average and the Year of the Pitcher. As I recall, anyway.

Always liked Tom Henke's swan song: 36 saves, 1.82 ERA, 48 Ks and 42 hits in 54 innings. And then, poof, he was gone.

Tom Henke is Kaiser Soze.

6. Ray Chapman 1920

Quitter.

What happened to Dutch Ulrich? I'd never heard of him before. He had a breakout season in 1927 at age 27, then died in February 1929.

Honorable mention goes to Larry French: 15-4 with a 1.83 ERA for the 1942 Dodgers. At the age of 35, he joined the Navy, but not just for the duration of the war: he had a full career there, retiring as a captain.

To get to Mantle, you have to pass by Tillie Shafer, who only had one year as a starter in the bigs (1913) and got some MVP votes, Clemente (duh) in '72, Cicotte in '20, Monty Stratton in '38, and John Tudor in 1990.

According to http://www.thedeadballera.com/tooyoung.html, Ulrich died of "pneumonia and pleurisy." Whatever pleurisy is...

Tillie Shafer looks like the kind of guy who would have gone on to have a long minor-league career. But perhaps he didn't. Michael Robbins in Ninety Feet from Fame (parts of which are on Google Books) says that Shafer came from a wealthy family and didn't need money, so he just retired. (It's doubly odd in fact that he would retire just as the Federal League started throwing money around.) Robbins says that Shafer became a WWI aviator and then a successful businessman after the war.

Buzz Arlett had an excellent "final" year, but of course it was not final by his reckoning, just in the middle of his PCL career.

Edit: I know people who have had pleurisy (inflammation of the lining of the lungs). Reported as excruciatingly painful.

6. Ray Chapman 1920

Quitter.

Come on, the real joke is Win Mercer being a quitter. Look him up.

Also, pleurisy is a common condition in conjunction with illnesses that affect the lungs like pneumonia and TB.

(Edited to make me sound less wrong.)

Anyway, what was I saying ... just that it would be very unusual for someone to retire like that. One wonders if Mussina might be susceptible to a Roger-like arrangement where he'll come back in midsummer for the Yankees or some other contender.

The greatest final season of all time has not happened yet. It will be Rickey's last season.

If he goes into the HOF, Oriole or Yankee?

Britt Burns, 1986.

If he goes into the HOF, Oriole or Yankee?

Should be as an Oriole. Had his best years there and pitched more seasons. Now, whether that will be the case, who knows?

If Mussina does follow through on retiring, he and Koufax will be the only two pitchers to retire after throwing at least 200 IP with an ERA+ of 130 or better.

Whatever pleurisy is...

Edit: I know people who have had pleurisy (inflammation of the lining of the lungs). Reported as excruciatingly painful.

Justin Morneau had pleurisy and pneumonia during that crazy offseason where he had so many things go wrong that people were saying he was a one-man Oregon Trail wagon. Pleurisy, pneumonia, appendicitis, chicken pox...

On the flip side, what's the most ignominious end to a HOF or HOVG career? Steve Carlton jumps to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

So what are the best final seasons in history?

what's the most ignominious end to a HOF or HOVG career?

barry bonds!

Speaking of kevin, who was hilariously arrogant, do any of you remember that pancakehead guy, who was a troll that made multiple names, each one a different breakfeast food? That guy was annoying, yet tremendously entertaining.

It's always disappointing for me to see somebody retire who obviously still has something left. Happy trails, Moose.

Should be as an Oriole. Had his best years there and pitched more seasons. Now, whether that will be the case, who knows?

It should be, though he's probably got enough time with each team that the Hall will probably let him make the call, if he so desired.

On the flip side, what's the most ignominious end to a HOF or HOVG career? Steve Carlton jumps to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

Carlton's a good one. The Babe went out pretty crummily despite a 118 OPS+, ditto Mark McGwire. Willie Mays was pretty awful in 1973, plus there's the whole falling down in the outfield thing during the playoffs.

Grover Alexander had a bad final stint with Phillies and got released. I suppose any HOF career that ends with a player being released is a pretty ugly end.

I suppose Craig Biggio might be a nominee, as he stunk for 2 straight years, and came off looking pretty selfish in his quest for 3000 hits. Though I think it's more the Astros putting him out there whether he could hit or not, than Biggio being selfish.

On the flip side, what's the most ignominious end to a HOF or HOVG career?

I guess Rickey Henderson's stint with the San Diego Surf Dawgz could count, but I thought it was pretty awesome myself.

It's always disappointing for me to see somebody retire who obviously still has something left.]

I hate it when players retire when they still have gas in the tank. I also hate players who just don't know when to hang 'em up.

I propose that each ballplayer over the age of 30 be assigned a person who shadows them everywhere, and says "Nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnow!"

On the flip side, what's the most ignominious end to a HOF or HOVG career?

The last-ever starts for Nolan Ryan and Cy Young were gruesomely memorable.

Worst season by a position player who was at least HoVG (my definition), as well as HoM: Ted Simmons, 1984.

Worst last season by a position player who was at least HoVG: Ken Singleton, also 1984.

Worst last season by a position player who was HoM: Ron Santo, 1974.

Worst season, as well as last season, by a position player who was HoF: Travis Jackson, 1936.

Worst season by a starting pitcher who was HoVG, HoM, and HoF: Bob Feller, 1952. (Man...what happened? He came back to be league averagey for three years after that).

Worst last season by a starting pitcher who was HoVG: Hippo Vaughn, 1921.

Worst last season by a starting pitcher who was HoM and HoF: Jim Bunning, 1971.

I'm voting for Phil Niekro. In his final season, he was pretty bad for Cleveland (77 ERA+, WHIP of 1.577), followed by being terrible for the Jays (when they were chasing a pennant, ERA+ of 55, WHIP of 1.83), and topping it off with craptacular in his final farewell start with Atlanta (3 IP, 6 hits, 6 walks, no K, 5 ER).

Whatever pleurisy is...

I've had pleurisy (twice).
You take a breath, it feels like someone runs a knife through your lungs. The first time I had it (my first year at work), I collapsed onto the cafeteria table in agony. I realized I could take shallow breaths, so I drove myself to the hospital to get checked out (I didn't know anyone at my new job well enough to ask for a ride).
Halfway there, I thought "If this is a heart attack, I really should have called an ambulance."

The doctor there diagnosed it in about 30 seconds.
While listening to my heart he asked "Had a cold recently?"
"Yup."
"Does it hurt here?" (pointing at the bottom of my ribcage)
"Yup."
"Pleurisy."
It lasted for about 12 hours, and it was exhausting taking only slow shallow breaths.

The second time it happened (a couple of years ago), I knew what it was and popped some uber-Tylenol to manage the pain for the rest of the day.

I wouldn't wish that sort of pain on anyone.

Tom Henke is Kaiser Soze.

I admit that I would be highly amused if I found out that criminals told their children stories of Tom Henke in order to scare them into not turning in their parents for said criminal activity.

"If you rat on your parents, some 6'5 guy who looks like an accountant will drill you with a fastball" doesn't seem like it'd be all that effective a threat.

I remember being really pissed off when Henke retired. He obviously wasn't done, and wanted to come back, but he only wanted to play in St. Louis, and LaRussa just had to have Eckersly as his closer.

I own 2 jerseys, one is Mussina's - loved, loved, loved watching him pitch. Kinda hoped he'd stick around, neat to see him go out while he's still very good.

Aw, that sucks. This last season of his was probably my all time favorite performance out of a Yankee starter, it really was remarkable to watch him pitch this year. It was amazing to see him throw sharp breaking balls with such precision in any count and to see a righty with a normal delivery blow 87 MPH fastballs by hitters, just one year after he looked completely finished. Where and when he threw his pitches this year was what made him truly special this year, the man pitched brilliantly. I'm sad I won't see him any more, but at least I got to witness this last year.

I couldn't agree more. Watching Mussina pitch this year was one of the most impressive things I've ever seen.

Though not HOF worthy, Pat Hentgen's last season with the Jays was particularly awful, especially his last start.

He finished a half-season in 2004 with a 6.98 ERA, 1.65 whip and a 2-9 record, with ugly, ugly peripherals. His last start was gross: 2.2IP, 7H, 8ER, 4BB, 1WP and a HBP - a pretty impressive display to be that bad without giving up a homerun, especially for a guy who gave up 16 in 80IP. The Jays lost to the Yankees 10-3.

Next day Hentgen was in the booth with the colour commentators, where he retired on air during the game (and was extremely embarrassed for himself on top of it). A sad end for a pitcher that helped carry a country to its only World Series glory.

Jays fans will remember this as a particularly painful season, with such notably terrible versions of Mike Nakamura, Kerry Lightenberg, Terry Adams, Aquilino Lopez, Miguel Batista, Justin Miller and Josh Towers. I think Terry Adams, Justin Speier, Vinnie Chulk and Jason Frasor had ERAs under 5.5.

But back on track, congrats to the Moose on a fine career, and I look forward to hearing endless Jim Rice-style discussion about his merits in the HOF.

True or false: He'll get more HoF votes retiring now than he would by playing next year and adding to his stats.

False.

I just don't see him getting in with less that 4000 IP or 300 wins. It's a great argument to have, though, and he's a helluva pitcher.

52 posts and no mention of Pete Rose's last year? I would've bet big someone would have mentioned Petey's 1986 and .270 SLG by now.

Glavine ended badly
I vaguely recall George Brett ending with several bad years, but looking at BBREF he was merely mediocre
Bernie Williams (HOVG) was an absolutely awful player his last 2 years - he had no business playing CF or batting as much as he did...
Pete Rose was a godawful player 3 out of his last 4 years

His last start was gross: 2.2IP, 7H, 8ER, 4BB, 1WP and a HBP - a pretty impressive display to be that bad without giving up a homerun, especially for a guy who gave up 16 in 80IP. The Jays lost to the Yankees 10-3.

I remember this quite clearly. Hentgen's line doesn't even reflect how bad he was, the Yankees just knocked him all over the yard. It seems like every hit was a frozen rope.

Although I'm a believe that guys should play as long as they want, I will always respect Hentgen for hanging it up after it became clear he just had absolutely nothing left.

He'll get in. Whippersnapperish baseball writers who are 30 now will be grizzled voters of 50 by his last year of eligibility. By then your standard newspaper (?) columnist will be more likely to complain about how ERA+ is decentralized in high offense eras, causing people to overrate Mussina, than they will be to drone on about how he only won 20 once.

Though not HOF worthy, Pat Hentgen's last season with the Jays was particularly awful, especially his last start.

That season provided some of my most vivid memories of being a Jays fan since I was a little kid trying to stay up to watch their World Series wins. I remember trying to watch as many Hentgen starts as possible that season, because I was 100% certain that I would never again see a starter who had as little chance to succeed as Hentgen did. He had nothing. It was incredibly painful to watch Hentgen go from being an all star and Cy winner in his first stint in Toronto to embarrassing himself in his second stint.

On the flip side, what's the most ignominious end to a HOF or HOVG career? Steve Carlton jumps to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

Jeff Bagwell's gotta be up there for me. Refusing to retire in time for his insurance coverage to kick in, training for months, then hitting around the Mendoza line in spring training, getting put back on the injured list with a quasi-injury and retiring without getting to take a final at-bat. His last actual season was pretty crappy too.

I'll echo that pleuresy sucks, and if it's chronic, there's no way you could possibly play through it. I had a relatively extended bout once that required an emergency room trip and lots of morphine in order to be able to breathe. In most cases it eventually goes away on its own (or with the help of antibiotics), but some cases have serious underlying health problems.

There are several divisions in this league.
Here is much less than an introduction to two of them.

1.
BLACK AND WHITE, OR SHADES OF GRAY?

1877 Louisville Grays (4, after 1877 season)
1919 Chicago White Sox (8, after 1920 season)
- about half of these Twelve Men Out were great players


2.
REST IN PEACE
Charlie Ferguson 1887
http://www.baseball-reference.com/f/ferguch01.shtml
- great pitcher, great batter. The greatest finale season?

Win Mercer 1902
http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mercewi01.shtml
- suicide, incoming player-manager
- good pitcher, good batter. Unusually good on the mound and unusually bad at bat in 1902; vice versa in 1901.

Chick Stahl 1906
http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/stahlch01.shtml
- suicide, incoming player-manager
- roughly his average season (of ten 1897-1906)

Addie Joss 1910
http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jossad01.shtml
- debilitating disease, evident in his 1910 record

Ray Chapman 1920
http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/chapmra01.shtml
- how good? not as good as we thought in 1920

Roberto Clemente 1972
http://www.baseball-reference.com/c/clemero01.shtml
- according to Michael Schell, the player who most improved his career batting record after 8000 (AB? or PA?)

Lyman Bostock 1978
http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/bostoly01.shtml
- how good? not as good as we thought in 1978

I remember being really pissed off when Henke retired. He obviously wasn't done, and wanted to come back, but he only wanted to play in St. Louis, and LaRussa just had to have Eckersly as his closer.

Henke had no interest in coming back with any team. The Cardinals didn't start pursuing Eckersley until after Henke told them he was retiring.

Dale Murphy's last two years were...not good.

62 ABs, 26 OPS+ in '92. Just to prove it wasn't a fluke he came back the next year and had 42 ABs with a 0 OPS+.

OK, but there's a limit to how much damage you can do in 62 AB, AJM Misses Brodeur. My list is of the guys who actually hurt their teams the most, because they sucked enough to suck, but not enough to be benched given their stature. On that principle, Rose's worst year was 1983, not 1986.

Ramon Martinez sure didn't go out on top.

Also, this isn't really within the purview of the question, but no immediate pre-retirement period was more painful for me than Stan Belinda's. He was a really nice guy, and a pretty good pitcher for a while, and it was just awful watching him slowly degrade as he kept playing through the onset of multiple sclerosis.

On the flip side, what's the most ignominious end to a HOF or HOVG career? Steve Carlton jumps to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

Roberto Alomar had a nosedive. He went from an OPS+ of 150 in 1991 to three painful seasons of 89, 80, and 81.

The last-ever starts for Nolan Ryan and Cy Young were gruesomely memorable.

Phil Niekro's last start was pathetic. 3 innings pitched, 6 hits and 6 walks. I actually saw that game on tv and his performance, if you can believe it, was worse than the line.