Again, the question would be overrated at what level and by whom. Andruw Jones has been a starting center fielder and middle-of-the-order hitter on nine straight division winners (plus the business end of a tenth, in his rookie season). A player like that is your basic All-Star, yet he has only made five All-Star teams. He's only done well in one MVP vote. I am sure there are guys in sports bars in Marietta who think that Andruw is better than DiMaggio, but the rest of the world has him pegged just about right, as Bradbury suggests.

I am sure there are guys in sports bars in Marietta who think that Andruw is better than DiMaggio, but the rest of the world has him pegged just about right, as Bradbury suggests.

I'm a big Jones fan, but that's how I approach this. There have been some random "Andruw Jones is the best-ever" quotes throughout the years, but no convincing argument behind them nor has the sentiment been expressed in anything approaching critical mass to make it a consensus. I think most people think of him as a once-elite and still excellent albeit diminished defensive player who has provided above-average, but by no means spectacular offense for the CF position. If he makes the Hall it will be on counting stats combined with defense as opposed to either (a) defense alone; or (b) anything approaching an elite offensive peak. Stark calls that overrated, and I disagree. I think he's rated pretty appropriately.

Andruw Jones’s career OPS of 117 is quite similar to Puckett’s 124

Alright, fine. When Andruw shaves his head and starts slapping his wife around, I'll vote for him for the HOF...

Well, his head is already shaved and he had a tumble with a couple of strippers. Close enough?

I think part of the ire against Jones (including myself) stems from the fact that he is so incredibly talented...and wasted much of it with his moronic approach. The guy could easily be a .290, 38-42 HR, 115-130 RBI and 80 BB guy and still playing Gold-Glove *worthy* defense if he'd bothered. Look at his early seasons...lots more doubles, lots more speed, even hit .300 one year with good BBs. But he got stuck thinking "long ball" all the time, and also got fat, to put it gently. He's so far gone that while I'm not happy he won't remain a Brave, I'm no longer heartbroken, either. Because while the 51 and 45 HR were nice, I'd much rather have 5-10 less with him still a) on base more with less station-to-station-ness about him, and b) still capable of roaming CF with authority. Is he a terrific player? No. Was he a terrific player? You bet your bottom dollar he *was*.

His flaws aside, I think he is still valuable and his presumable loss after this year will cause the Braves to suffer a falloff in center, both offensively and defensively. That said, for what he's likely seeking -- and really, for what he's currently making -- the Braves could find a defensive specialist for center, or move Frenchy there and find a serviceable bat for right, and spend the rest on other, more critical parts.

As for Lonnie's comments: I think the .300 year was an abberation. I may not watch him as much as I used to, but he didn't seem to concentrate so much on the longball until after he altered his swing and hit 50 of them a couple of years ago. Now that that isn't working so good, he's yet to adjust and try to simply hit.

Question on Stark's column, based on the fact that I know jack about most defensive metrics: would the numbers Start mentions (zone rating, but I think he referred to others) take into account the notion that during his "elite" years, Jones had substandard defensive players next to him (Klesko and a cast of stumblers) and that during his decline years he's had Frenchy and Langerhans and a couple of other good players. Specifically, are the zone rating numbers skewed by his ranging over to take other players' balls in the 1990s, while his teammates have covered more ground in the past couple of years.

I ask this mostly because, to my damn eyes, he seems to be slower, but still pretty effective in center.

Craig, I think you just unleashed the Dial Discretionary Outs Volcano.

He is still routinely spoken about as the greatest defensive CF in the game and his HR and RBI totals led to ridiculous MVP finishes of 2nd in 2005 with almost half of the first place votes on the strength of a SLG-heavy 133 OPS+ and 11th in 2006 with an OPS+ of 129. That covers the sportswriters. Thinking back to all of the fan outrage when he didn't win the '05 MVP in which he should have been a footnote at best, it'd be pretty hard to convince me that baseball fans, disillusionment from his current slump aside, don't also overrate him.

Craig, I think you just unleashed the Dial Discretionary Outs Volcano

Man, I didn't mean to do that. This is what happens when you stop paying close attention around here for five years.

In other news, what does everyone think about the Giambi-Mabry trade?

all of the fan outrage when he didn't win the '05 MVP in which he should have been a footnote at best

Well, but he won the RBI title, for a playoff club. That's the kind of year voters usually go for, and indeed Jones got a lot of support, and indeed some fans get exercised when someone with that record doesn't win -- see David Ortiz, same season. In 2006, Andruw put up similar RBI numbers, the Braves went nowhere, and as you note, he fell to 11th place in the voting, which is to say almost off the radar. I don't think the writers rate him particularly high year-in-year-out, like they did Steve Garvey or indeed Kirby Puckett, for instance; I just think Andruw fit their usual MVP formula in 2005.

He is still winning gold gloves (and still will for several more years) though he doesn't deserve it anymore.

I heard a fan call into a sports radio over the weekend claiming how Jones should be signed by the Yankees and how he would have made several plays that Damon missed.

He made a pretty damn good catch on Sunday.

Edmonds or Andruw? Who's better? Who will make the HOF?

I think Edmonds is better but Andruw will make the HOF. So yes, Andruw is overrated. Or at least will be.

Is (or, possibly, was) Jones one of the best centerfielders in baseball history? No. I don't personally know anyone who'll defend that proposition, although if you look hard enough I'm sure you could find someone.

On the other hand, I think Jones might have been among the best defensive centerfielders in baseball history, at least during his defensive prime. I'm not saying he definitely was, just that I find it believable that he was. I watched a lot of Atlanta games during the late '90s, and, while what you see is often deceptive, I think Jones was a genuinely great fielder. And, like many players who do one thing really well, he's probably somewhat overrated because of that.

I heard a fan call into a sports radio over the weekend claiming how Jones should be signed by the Yankees and how he would have made several plays that Damon missed.

That last part is probably accurate, at least. :p

I think Edmonds is better but Andruw will make the HOF. So yes, Andruw is overrated. Or at least will be.

I find this a bit curious. Overall, I agree (as would most, I assume) that Edmonds has been the better player over the course of his career, having posted many season with an OPS+ superior to Jones' best. His only demerits vis-a-vis Jones being durability, and even then it isn't like Edmonds has been Mr. Glass over the long haul. As far as defense, Edmonds only has one fewer gold glove than Jones, and as of his last complete, injury free season (2005) was still grabbing them, possibly based on rep rather than performance. Edmonds has had similar MVP-Love from the writers as has Jones, with Jones' numbers in this regard edging out Edmonds' only by virtue of the high 2005 finish, which was discussed above.

If Jones makes the Hall and Edmonds doesn't, it will be a function of counting stats, not reputation as the better player, because I don't know anyone who could claim that Jones was superior to Edmonds at similar ages.

When you include defense, I think Jones is a top 15 CFer, possibly even top 10. If his age 30 seasons on are anything like his #1 comp, than he is top 5.

I don't know anyone who could claim that Jones was superior to Edmonds at similar ages.

#17 would appear to disagree.

Using for defense a combo of win shares and baseballprospectus.com player cards, I found Andruw to be among the best peak/prime CFers ever-

Peak (best 5 seasons)
1. Tris Speaker
2. Andruw Jones
3. Curt Flood
4. Dom DiMaggio
5. Marquis Grissom
6. Willie Mays

Prime (best 8 consecutive yrs, war credit given)
1. Andruw Jones
2. Dom DiMaggio
3. Tris Speaker
4. Jim Piersall
5. Paul Blair

Career (best 12 or more years,war credit given)
1. Tris Speaker
2. Willie Mays
3. Dom DiMaggio
4. Curt Flood
5. Paul Blair

study at http://www.philbirnbaum.com/btn2006-05.pdf, pg11ff

Of course Oscar Charleston would like to be part of this discussion.

#17 would appear to disagree.
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No, I think Edmonds' career (right now) is better than Andruw Jones'. Still, Jones is only 30 and his two best OPS+ seasons were his last two.

I just think after the top 4 (Speaker, Mays, DiMaggio & Griffey), there is a big drop off and it gets difficult to determine the rankings of the next 11 best CFers. I don't think there is anything wrong with me saying that Jones likely falls in that group.

I just think after the top 4 (Speaker, Mays, DiMaggio & Griffey)

Do you mean defensively? If you're including offense, Ty Cobb probably belongs in the discussion.

I sort of meant that in terms of what the consensus among those who do the "underrating" or "overrating" (i.e. media types and opinion shapers) as opposed to what the numbers say. Numbers are what they are, but I know of few if any overraters or underraters who think Jones is better than Edmonds. Unless of course "shaftr" is really Bob Costas or someone.

Do you mean defensively? If you're including offense, Ty Cobb probably belongs in the discussion.

Ughh, yeah. I did a quick use of PI at baseball-reference and put in 80% at CF. I'm guessing it doesn't go that far back in regards to differentiating CF from OF. After I put down those 4 names I kept looking at it thinking I had forgotten someone.

I heard a fan call into a sports radio over the weekend claiming how Jones should be signed by the Yankees and how he would have made several plays that Damon missed.


There may be variation in how Jones is rated, but is there anyone, anywhere that thinks Jones isn't a much better CF than Damon?

I think Jones' defense was a little overrated (overhyped may be a better word) early on. However, I think his demise is exaggerated now. He's certainly heavier and slower but still makes great reads and has a good first step. He gets to a ton of balls and makes great catches. He's not, now, one of the greatest defensive CFs ever but he's still very good, IMO.

I think both the original article and this article focus mostly on the now, not past performance.

Question on Stark's column, based on the fact that I know jack about most defensive metrics: would the numbers Start mentions (zone rating, but I think he referred to others) take into account the notion that during his "elite" years, Jones had substandard defensive players next to him (Klesko and a cast of stumblers) and that during his decline years he's had Frenchy and Langerhans and a couple of other good players.

I may have mentioned this in another thread. Anyway, during his defensive prime, at some point Andruw and Maddux talked about how Andruw could pick up the signs or read where teh catcher's mitt was set up, and prepare for where the ball was likely to go. I don't know if it was true, but there was that claim. In recent years Andruw has been behind a much weaker pitching staff, one that doesn't hit its locations as well. So perhaps part of it is that he no longer can act on that edge.

That, and he's definitely slower.

I just think after the top 4 (Speaker, Mays, DiMaggio & Griffey)



Do you mean defensively? If you're including offense, Ty Cobb probably belongs in the discussion.

Boy, the Mick's reputation has sure dropped.

I've watched Andruw Jones for years and I have to agree on one thing. He gets the most incredible jump on the ball. I've never seen an outfielder who got a better jump. The instant the ball meets the bat, he seems to know just where it is going to go. That plays a large part in his defensive abilities.

Prime (best 8 consecutive yrs, war credit given)
1. Andruw Jones
2. Dom DiMaggio
3. Tris Speaker
4. Jim Piersall
5. Paul Blair


Top eight years for prime?

The question is, is plus-minus a better defense quantifying system than ZR as the author claims?
Because Andruw is on the opposite ends of the spectrum when using these 2 systems..