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Wednesday, July 23, 2008

Salon: Kaufman: Baseball’s gone statue crazy

At this rate...some stadiums will look like they are holding an extended Wentim family reunion.

Baines and Cepeda just don’t seem like statue types. If they were presidents they’d be Martin Van Buren or Chester Arthur. It’s a hell of a thing even to be an obscure or bad president, but Chester Arthur wasn’t exactly on the short list for Mount Rushmore.

Cepeda’s statue will join those of Willie Mays, Juan Marichal and Willie McCovey outside AT&T Park. McCovey, who came up with Cepeda and lost playing time to him, though he ended up having a better career, might even be stretching things a bit, pardon the nickname pun, especially considering they named the cove outside the stadium after him.

This is a guy Bill James rated as the ninth-best first baseman of all time in his “New Historical Abstract,” and that was before Albert Pujols got going. The Baseball Page ranks him eighth, with Pujols 25th and climbing.

Top 10 of all time at any position is really something, don’t get me wrong. But we’re talking about building statues here. Monuments. Baseball has a tradition of building statues that other sports don’t have, but imagine if there weren’t just a statue of Michael Jordan outside the United Center in Chicago, but also one of Scottie Pippen. And one of Bob Love. And Horace Grant. That’s where baseball’s going.

Repoz Posted: July 23, 2008 at 01:34 PM | 142 comment(s)
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1. robinred Posted: July 23, 2008 at 01:48 PM (#2869524)

Where is the physical location of the statue of the Primer chimp? That picture of him looks like a statue. I want to visit it.

The Yankees are the worst though, as they have statues at ss and 1b.

2. Shooty misses Bill King Posted: July 23, 2008 at 01:50 PM (#2869526)

I think he's right. If the Giants have Cepeda statue-fied, then they better do the same for the superior Will Clark. I also think they should have a life-sized RV with Rod Beck drinking a cold one on a lawn chair in front of it somwhere near the stadium.

I wonder if the A's will have a statue at their new park? Hunter, Fingers, Eck could be options. Rickey in his trademark crounch at the plate or sliding headfirst into second would be best. Or they could just put Emil Brown somewhere.

3. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: July 23, 2008 at 01:54 PM (#2869530)

Only a philistine would cover up the statue of Giambi with a golden fig thong.

4. robinred Posted: July 23, 2008 at 01:55 PM (#2869531)

I wonder if the A's will have a statue at their new park?

They will if Beane can trade a veteran sculptor for someone in an MFA program who is graduating in 2010.

5. Johnny Clash Posted: July 23, 2008 at 01:59 PM (#2869532)

I don't really share the King's concerns about this. The Giants could erect a Will Clark, heck even a Jack Clark statue, and that would be cool with me. Statues are neat.

My question is, when will the Giants erect a statue of Bonds?

6. Alex Gordon's #1 Fan Posted: July 23, 2008 at 01:59 PM (#2869533)

I agree with Clash. Its a statue. It don't hurt no one and it makes a few people happy.

7. Wally Moses, Isolated Power Broker (GGC) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 01:59 PM (#2869534)

King isn't complaining about plaques too, is he?

8. Johnny Clash Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:00 PM (#2869536)

I wonder if the A's will have a statue at their new park? Hunter, Fingers, Eck could be options. Rickey in his trademark crounch at the plate or sliding headfirst into second would be best. Or they could just put Emil Brown somewhere.

Perhaps a statue of Beane poring over a spreadsheet?

9. Greg Maddux School of Reflexive Profanity Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:03 PM (#2869540)

The A's will never have a Rickey statue. They can't even be bothered to keep the chump of the week from wearing his number.

10. robinred Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:04 PM (#2869542)

Perhaps a statue of Beane poring over a spreadsheet?

Nah. At his computer, writing the first draft of Moneyball.

***

11. Sowers the Seed of Love (B.J. & The Tear) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:06 PM (#2869545)

@ #4: jeezus, Robinred I almost fell off of the toilet laughing.

(Yes, I read primer on the hopper; I am a sick monkey)

12. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:07 PM (#2869548)

Baseball fans have a right to know what the legends of the game would look like with pigeon crap all over them.

13. Fred C. Dobbs Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:14 PM (#2869556)

I would LOVE a statue of Will Clark with arms raised in fist-pounding glory after the single off of Mitch WIlliams in the '89 playoffs. My fondest baseball memory as a youngster. I would also love a statue of Bonds choking Jeff Kent.

14. zonk Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:22 PM (#2869561)

Chester Arthur can't really be categorized as a 'bad' President -- and he's 'obscure' only so far as any pre-WWII President not named Lincoln or Washington qualifies as 'obscure' in our historically illiterate nation.

Arthur was actually a quite fascinating President -- he rose to power as yes-man for the corrupt Stalwarts, then completely turned his back on them after James Garfield's assassination and enacted the most ambitious civil service reform in our nation's history. In fact, he so enraged the GOP that he couldn't even resecure the nomination the next cycle.

Chester Arthur is sort of the Mike Piazza (no, not in that way... you're thinking of James Buchanan) of Presidents. A late rounder afterthought of whom not much was expected, who then went on to far exceed expectations... not that Arthur deserves a spot in the pantheon of greats like Piazza might, but if you were lay out the expectations of Presidents entering office and rank their chances for success without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, Arthur would probably have been ranked at the bottom of the list.

15. tribefan Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:22 PM (#2869562)

I want the Indians to build a statue of Keith Hernandez sitting in the locker room working on a crossword puzzle.

16. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:26 PM (#2869564)

17. The Good Face Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:30 PM (#2869570)

I'd heard the Yankees wanted to build a statue of Jeter at the new stadium, but didn't have enough bronze for the 100 companion supermodel statues.

18. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:36 PM (#2869575)

He's no Warren Harding, that's for sure.

And Harding is no Millard Fillmore.

19. B. Selig Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:37 PM (#2869577)

I have statues of Cookie Monster and Jack Daniel in my living room. Baines and Cepeda were better baseball players than they were.

20. robinred Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:41 PM (#2869584)

This is a good thread; some funny lines, a guy almost falling off the toilet, and some cool stuff about Chester Arthur.

Furtado should build a monument to it, to go with the Katrina, PETCO and Obama thread monuments.

21. Moscow In The Bleachers Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:44 PM (#2869587)

Cepeda was the San Francisco Giants' first non-imported star, and that's why San Francisco's having a statue of him. End of story. Only a Salon writer would need to have this explained to him. Statues are not necessarily awarded by statistical comparisons.

And McCovey didn't "come up with Cepeda." Cepeda played in the Giants' first game in San Francisco in 1958 and preceded McCovey in the lineup by a full year and a half. Marichal didn't get there until 1960.

22. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:45 PM (#2869589)

You know who's under-utilized as the go-to obscure president? Franklin Pierce.

23. Swedish Chef Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:45 PM (#2869590)

I want a statue of a screaming Larry Bowa, Bushmills bottle in hand. Or maybe a gilded Steinbrenner sitting on a throne of skulls.

24. PETCO Thread Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:46 PM (#2869591)

Furtado should build a monument to it, to go with the Katrina, PETCO and Obama thread monuments.

Why thank you, kind sir!

25. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:47 PM (#2869593)

I want a statue of Joe Shultz pounding the Budweiser

26. robinred Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:48 PM (#2869595)

Cepeda was the San Francisco Giants' first non-imported star, and that's why San Francisco's having a statue of him. End of story. Only a Salon writer would need to have this explained to him. Statues are not necessarily awarded by statistical comparisons.

And McCovey didn't "come up with Cepeda." Cepeda played in the Giants' first game in San Francisco in 1958 and preceded McCovey in the lineup by a full year and a half. Marichal didn't get there until 1960.

Sounds like you need to get Kaufman off your lawn, too. ;-

27. baseballing powerhouse (phredbird) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:50 PM (#2869597)

if you were lay out the expectations of Presidents entering office and rank their chances for success without the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, Arthur would probably have been ranked at the bottom of the list.

harry truman wasn't taken very seriously at the start. of course, he didn't have much support at the end either.

28. Craig Calcaterra Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:53 PM (#2869601)

He's no Warren Harding, that's for sure.

Mister, we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again.

29. Tropical Storm Davis, aka Quilvio Anti-Retro Veras Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:55 PM (#2869603)

I want the Indians to build a statue of Keith Hernandez sitting in the locker room working on a crossword puzzle.

I figured it would be him drinking a beer in the clubhouse.

30. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 02:58 PM (#2869607)

"It don't hurt no one and it makes a few people happy."

Sure, says you!

"Chester Arthur is sort of the Mike Piazza (no, not in that way... you're thinking of James Buchanan)"

Ha!

31. AlouGoodbye Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:01 PM (#2869611)

WHO is insulting Martin Van Buren? WHO?

32. The Tailor of the Garden of Tea (Crispix Attacks) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:03 PM (#2869615)

I'm a big-Hall guy when it comes to statues. Is there a reason the Phillies shouldn't immortalize this in statue form, or at least a bust? I think the burden of proof should be to demonstrate who DOESN'T deserve a statue.

33. Repoz Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:05 PM (#2869617)

Does anybody know if the Walter Pidgeon statue in New Brunswick has pidgeon #### all over it?

Thanks.

34. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:10 PM (#2869624)

Actually, Warren Harding is the Barry Bonds of presidents. He was the top name in a huge scandal, he died in the midst of the revelation of the scandal before his term was up, and because his wife refused an autopsy there will always be a cloud of suspicion over what caused his demise.

35. Dig!!! JMM Dig!!! Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:19 PM (#2869629)

The A's will never have a Rickey statue. They can't even be bothered to keep the chump of the week from wearing his number.

Frank Thomas, chump of the week? And saying 24 is Rickey's number is like saying Wings was Paul McCartney's band.

And if Mike Gallego and a bunch of sub-Mike Gallegos can wear 9 before they finally retire it for Reggie, or a scrub reliever can come in after being dumped in Phladelphia and be given Rollie Fingers number (even if he did become Dave Stewart)....

36. Master of the small sample size Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:22 PM (#2869637)

The A's can't build Rickey until they have two other statues, otherwise, Rickey wouldn't be the third person.

37. Joey Belle needs love too Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:23 PM (#2869641)

Just wikipediad James Buchanan, he seems like a total putz. The Utah War? Really? Going to war with Mormons?

I'm a Taft fan myself. Anyone who is that fat has to be good for a laugh.

Harrison is pretty tight too. It only took him 3 weeks to make his mark.

38. Swedish Chef Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:25 PM (#2869643)

The Utah War? Really? Going to war with Mormons?

Winnable wars are nice for politicians (see Falklands).

39. The Tailor of the Garden of Tea (Crispix Attacks) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:26 PM (#2869646)

Just wikipediad James Buchanan, he seems like a total putz. The Utah War? Really? Going to war with Mormons?

And twenty years after Lilburn W. Boggs's Missouri Extermination Order, to boot. It should have been clear by then that Mormons were not an existential threat.

40. AlouGoodbye Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:30 PM (#2869653)

Winnable wars are nice for politicians (see Falklands).

You only say that because the war was won. It was actually a very risky war, and pretty close run. Besides "winnable" wars often turn out to be disasters anyway (see Iraq).

41. The Marksist Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:31 PM (#2869654)

I want a statue of a screaming Larry Bowa, Bushmills bottle in hand. Or maybe a gilded Steinbrenner sitting on a throne of skulls.

Can someone please start a Madame Tussaud's-style wax museum with sports figures as caricatures of themselves? You know, Wade Boggs pounding 7 beers at once, Manny making a phone call while fielding a ball, etc.

42. The Tailor of the Garden of Tea (Crispix Attacks) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:34 PM (#2869655)

Manny making a phone call while fielding a ball, etc.

That one could be easily adapted for the Melky Cabrera exhibit, too.

43. DCW3 * Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:35 PM (#2869657)

You know who's under-utilized as the go-to obscure president? Franklin Pierce.

It's because his name's too normal--it just doesn't sound as amusing as "Chester Arthur" or, even better, "Rutherford B. Hayes."

44. Boots Day Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:35 PM (#2869658)

Perhaps a statue of Beane poring over a spreadsheet?

They're waiting until they can perfect the technology that would allow them to depict a thrown chair in midflight.

45. Esoteric roots for the two worst teams in baseball Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:35 PM (#2869659)

zonk:

Thank you for vindicating the reputation of Chester A. Arthur. He was easily the best of the Gilded Age presidents.

WORST. PRESIDENTS. EVAR.:

20th/21st Century Tier:

1.) Woodrow Wilson
2.) Herbert Hoover
3.) John F. Kennedy
4.) Richard Nixon
5.) Jimmy Carter
6.) George W. Bush
HONORABLE MENTION: Franklin D. Roosevelt. (Near-disastrous economically, and mediocre everywhere else. Mere longevity does not make for greatness.)

19th Century Tier:

1.) James Buchanan (the worst of all time)
2.) Andrew Johnson
3.) Ulysses S. Grant
4.) Franklin Pierce
5.) Martin Van Buren
6.) Millard Fillmore

Founding Fathers Tier

1.) John Adams
2.) Thomas Jefferson
3.) James Madison (The father of the Constitution. Shockingly ineffective C-in-C. The Andy Marte of Presidents.)

46. Van Lingle Mungo Jerry Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:36 PM (#2869663)

Baines and Cepeda just don’t seem like statue types. If they were presidents they’d be Martin Van Buren or Chester Arthur.

As a graduate of Chester Arthur's alma mater, I can assure you that a statue of him already exists (fifth from the top).

47. Shooty misses Bill King Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:37 PM (#2869664)

They're waiting until they can perfect the technology that would allow them to depict a thrown chair in midflight.

How about a hologram? That's close enough, no?

Oh yeah, and you guys are total dorks.

48. TerpNats Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:39 PM (#2869670)

Tell Mr. Kaufman the Frank Howard statue represents the expansion Senators, just as Walter Johnson represents the original AL Senators and Josh Gibson the Homestead Grays.

49. The Tailor of the Garden of Tea (Crispix Attacks) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:42 PM (#2869676)

I only know of one statue of James Buchanan.

But unlike some presidents, he also has a rugged Masonic pyramid commemmorating his birthplace.

50. The Tailor of the Garden of Tea (Crispix Attacks) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:44 PM (#2869681)

Tell Mr. Kaufman the Frank Howard statue represents the expansion Senators, just as Walter Johnson represents the original AL Senators and Josh Gibson the Homestead Grays.

Should today's Nationals be unrepresented by a statue? I recommend doing one of Ronnie Belliard.

51. Joey Belle needs love too Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:46 PM (#2869684)

I recommend doing one of Ronnie Belliard.

I recommend Termel Sledge. Those 20 games were magic.

52. PatrickInTheWoods, Apostate Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:47 PM (#2869685)

2.) Thomas Jefferson

Really? Why? I don't mean this contentiously, I really know why you think so.

53. The Joe Mauer Power Hour (kj) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:47 PM (#2869686)

Should today's Nationals be unrepresented by a statue? I recommend doing one of Ronnie Belliard.

Elijah Dukes typing a text message on his phone? Then again, I suppose his heyday was in Tampa Bay.

54. Swedish Chef Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:49 PM (#2869689)

The Lousiana purchase has given a pretty good ROI.

55. PatrickInTheWoods, Apostate Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:53 PM (#2869692)

The Utah War? Really? Going to war with Mormons?

I'd never heard of this.

Winnable wars are nice for politicians

The 1857 US Army stood a very good chance of getting an a@@kicking in Utah, at least at first. The Mormons weren't the Quakers, after all.

56. RB in NYC (Now with an Australian Itinerary!) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:54 PM (#2869693)

3.) Ulysses S. Grant

Grant is really, really luck he has those other guys surronding him, because my god, was he ever #### as a President. (Of course, he was pretty #### at everything except defeating Confederates and writing memoirs.)

Also, when it came to Presidents of the mid-1800s, Lincoln stands out like Carlton on the '72 Phillies, doesn't he?

57. aleskel Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:55 PM (#2869695)

Really? Why? I don't mean this contentiously, I really know why you think so.

yeah, I'd like to know why you ranked the 20th century presidents the way you did myself. Wilson and Carter worse than Bush?

58. Moscow In The Bleachers Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:56 PM (#2869697)

WORST. PRESIDENTS. EVAR.:

20th/21st Century Tier:

1.) Woodrow Wilson
2.) Herbert Hoover
3.) John F. Kennedy
4.) Richard Nixon
5.) Jimmy Carter
6.) George W. Bush
HONORABLE MENTION: Franklin D. Roosevelt.

That's one interesting mix, Eso. I have a feeling you're going to be stocking up on Prilosec in November no matter who wins. But curiously, you got five of the seven of them right.

59. Esoteric roots for the two worst teams in baseball Posted: July 23, 2008 at 03:59 PM (#2869703)

yeah, I'd like to know why you ranked the 21st century presidents the way you did myself. Wilson and Carter worse than Bush?

I ranked Bush at the bottom merely because it's just too soon to judge. Honestly, I'd probably put him above Carter. But Wilson? Wilson is the worst of them all. The worst president of the 20th century, though Hoover comes close. Kennedy got us into Vietnam, brought us the Bay Of Pigs, and nearly started nuclear war, all while being hopped up on pretty much every drug imaginable and having sex with mafia women. Nixon was actually excellent re foreign policy, but his ultimately authoritarian moves on the way out overawe any positive achievements. Carter was just an incompetent, morale-destroying disaster.

Coolidge is the most underrated.

60. Esoteric roots for the two worst teams in baseball Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:01 PM (#2869704)

But curiously, you got five of the seven of them right.

Which two don't you agree about? I'm guessing Roosevelt and Kennedy? (Please don't defend the disgustingly racist, foreign-policy bungling, civil liberties-crushing Woodrow Wilson.)

61. RB in NYC (Now with an Australian Itinerary!) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:01 PM (#2869707)

As a graduate of Chester Arthur's alma mater, I can assure you that a statue of him already exists (fifth from the top).

Arthur is also honored with a statue in New York's Madison Square Park

62. aleskel Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:03 PM (#2869708)

The worst president of the 20th century, though Hoover comes close.

really? I would say he's the most overrated, but worst is a bit much. My rankings:

1) Nixon
2) Hoover
3) Bush
4) Kennedy
5) Reagan
6) Carter

63. Dan Szymborski Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:04 PM (#2869709)

Which two don't you agree about? I'm guessing Roosevelt and Kennedy? (Please don't defend the disgustingly racist, foreign-policy bungling, civil liberties-crushing Woodrow Wilson.)

Woodrow Wilson is kind of the unity candidate - he did stuff that all the progressives, all the libertarians, and the 2 conservatives on this site all hate.

64. PatrickInTheWoods, Apostate Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:05 PM (#2869710)

But curiously, you got five of the seven of them right.

Kennedy was President for too short a time, maybe. Consequently, I'm not sure he's among the worst ever. W is President now, and certainly not popular; but do let's let some history go before we put him up there with Nixon and Carter.

65. aleskel Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:07 PM (#2869711)

W is President now, and certainly not popular; but do let's let some history go before we put him up there with Nixon and Carter.

sorry, but I think Bush has done enough already to solidify his place on the crap list

66. Esoteric roots for the two worst teams in baseball Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:07 PM (#2869712)

Wilson was a flaming racist who used federal power not only to enforce Jim Crow, but to introduce it on a federal level. He was also the authoritarian jackass who brought you such lowlights in American history as the Palmer Raids and the imprisonment of Eugene V. Debs under the Espionage Act. Leaving aside the controversy over American involvement in World War I (I'm not a critic) he BADLY mishandled the postwar scenario, botched his League of Nations idea, and had a stroke in office so debilitating that his wife was forced to take over for him as President. Just a terrible president and a terrible human being.

67. RB in NYC (Now with an Australian Itinerary!) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:08 PM (#2869713)

Holding Wilson's stroke aganist him is kind of harsh. There's plenty to tag on him without that.

68. Boots Day Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:09 PM (#2869714)

Coolidge is the most underrated.

Him or Salami.

69. PatrickInTheWoods, Apostate Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:09 PM (#2869715)

all the libertarians, and the 2 conservatives

What about conservative libertarians, or conservatives with a libertarian heart (or whatever you might call folks like that)? But we, um, they, hate Wilson too.

70. PatrickInTheWoods, Apostate Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:10 PM (#2869719)

sorry, but I think Bush has done enough already to solidify his place on the crap list

Could be so, just saying he needs to be gone for a little while first.

71. zonk Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:10 PM (#2869720)

The interesting thing about Jefferson is that he spent most of Adam's (and even Washington's) administration ######## about the increase of executive power, then through the Louisiana purchase and a host of other actions -- he actually furthered the power of the Presidency more than Adams.

Jefferson could also be somewhat considered the father of the spoils system - as he more or less purged the federal government of Federalists when he took office.

Jefferson was a man of contradictions... he'd have never made it in politics in the modern era - I guarantee you he'd have been a think tank writer - perhaps verging on think tank crank.

Jefferson wrote a much better game than he acted.

72. Esoteric roots for the two worst teams in baseball Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:13 PM (#2869723)

Kennedy was President for too short a time, maybe. Consequently, I'm not sure he's among the worst ever.

Given the amount of world-historical catastrophes that Kennedy oversaw or allowed to happen on his watch, I feel pretty confident in saying that deserves inclusion on this list. Frankly, if he had lived to serve two terms I can only imagine that he would have added to his negative score.

73. PatrickInTheWoods, Apostate Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:14 PM (#2869724)

zonk - all decent arguments, but I don't know if the ultimate consequences of some of those things, with the obvious exception of the spoils system, deliver him to the ranks of "Worst ever".

74. PatrickInTheWoods, Apostate Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:15 PM (#2869725)

Frankly, if he had lived to serve two terms I can only imagine that he would have added to his negative score

I was always annoyed at how many people thought he was among the best ever. Huh? Anyway, he's definitely the most overrated to me, for the very reasons you state.

75. Esoteric roots for the two worst teams in baseball Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:16 PM (#2869726)

Also, when it came to Presidents of the mid-1800s, Lincoln stands out like Carlton on the '72 Phillies, doesn't he?

Pretty much. You can make a solid argument for James K. Polk too - he's more of a peak than a career guy, though. And you have to adopt a fairly lax moral standard.

76. The Good Face Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:18 PM (#2869729)

WORST. PRESIDENTS. EVAR.:

20th/21st Century Tier:

1.) Woodrow Wilson
2.) Herbert Hoover
3.) John F. Kennedy
4.) Richard Nixon
5.) Jimmy Carter
6.) George W. Bush
HONORABLE MENTION: Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Not bad, but I'd move a few things around...

1. Woodrow Wilson - A vile man and a worse president.
2. Jimmy Carter - History's greatest monster.
3. Richard Nixon - He WAS a crook. His appearances as a head in a jar on Futurama brought laughter to millions though.
4. John F. Kennedy - Weak, drugged up and a terrible decision maker. Handsome devil though.
5. George W. Bush - A limited man utterly overwhelmed by his times. Too early to really tell where he belongs, but looks bad.
6. Herbert Hoover - A decent man overrun by events, that he promptly made worse.

77. sotapop Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:18 PM (#2869730)

hey, mungo jerry... here I am thinking I'm the only one who knows of the Chester A. Arthur statue. (and yeah, zonk hit it on the head about him.) who'd a think there was another Union alum on Primer. go figure.

78. zonk Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:20 PM (#2869731)

zonk - all decent arguments, but I don't know if the ultimate consequences of some of those things, with the obvious exception of the spoils system, deliver him to the ranks of "Worst ever".

I probably should have mentioned -- I wouldn't personally rank him anywhere on a 'worst' list... but I certainly wouldn't have him on any 'best' lists. Without laying them all out and doing an HoM deep dive, I'd probably have him somewhere in the 20s.

Jefferson simply found that his ideology and political philosophy were completely at odds with the reality of the office... that's probably something every President, good/bad, right/left has found.

I think the big issue with Jefferson is that he was a quite distrustful man -- he barely trusted people that agreed with him ideologically, he thought the worst of anyone that didn't agree with him ideologically - and too often, acted according to that distrust.

79. Esoteric roots for the two worst teams in baseball Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:25 PM (#2869738)

2. Jimmy Carter - History's greatest monster.

This never, ever gets old. Every time I see it I laugh.

80. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:27 PM (#2869740)

"Coolidge is the most underrated."

Coolidge is the champion of the government-doesn't-give-a-####-about-you school of government, from his shameful handling of the Great Mississippi Flood of 1927, to his veto of the Bonus Bill, to his lack of interest in anything relating to workers' rights (such as child labor), to the instability and economic stratification created by his laissez-faire economic policy (which fed right into the Great Depression). And his decision to leave all of Harding's corrupt cronies in office (hey, you voted for 'em!) was disgusting. He did have the good sense to bail on the country right before his whole house of cards collapsed, leaving Hoover stuck with the bag and preserving his own reputation.

He was in many ways a proto-Reagan, though there's some Bush II in there as well.

81. The District Attorney Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:30 PM (#2869742)

Actually, Warren Harding is the Barry Bonds of presidents.

Well, they were both Negroes.

However, I don't think Harding was ever threatening any "best President" records.

82. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:30 PM (#2869743)

Jefferson should also lose some points for being so completely out of step with the economic future of the country. He envisioned America as an agrarian, third-world nation, indefinitely exporting raw materials to pay for finshed goods. Kind of like if you took the Old South and stretched it up to the Canadian border.

Thank God for Hamilton. He had a greater positive impact on the country than all but a handful of Presidents.

83. Esoteric roots for the two worst teams in baseball Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:34 PM (#2869748)

Jefferson should also lose some points for being so completely out of step with the economic future of the country. He envisioned America as an agrarian, third-world nation, indefinitely exporting raw materials to pay for finshed goods.

This is really where I get my disdain for Jefferson from, this and the spoils system. And the attempt to overthrow of the Judiciary as the third branch of government, symbolized by the revocation of the Judiciary Act of 1801 and the attempted impeachment of Samuel P. Chase. (It's easy to forget that Jefferson was the "winning" - i.e. losing in terms of long-term effect - side of Marbury v. Madison.)

But understand, that my Founding Fathers rankings are on a different scale than the rest. They're all in the Hall of Fame...I'm just trying to establish that they don't belong in the Hall of Merit.

84. DCW3 * Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:43 PM (#2869756)

Thank God for Hamilton. He had a greater positive impact on the country than all but a handful of Presidents.

Look, I know conquering drug addiction and coming back to hit all those home runs is impressive, but, really, this has gone too far.

85. AlouGoodbye Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:46 PM (#2869762)

Well as one of the two conservatives on this site I think there are things to admire in Wilson as the statesman, not least that he was able to take the US into WW1, but given that he failed to implement some of the most important measures he must fail as a politican.

86. Esoteric roots for the two worst teams in baseball Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:48 PM (#2869766)

Who's the other conservative on this site? Is that me?

87. RB in NYC (Now with an Australian Itinerary!) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:50 PM (#2869768)

Look, I know conquering drug addiction and coming back to hit all those home runs is impressive, but, really, this has gone too far.

Well-played

88. Van Lingle Mungo Jerry Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:52 PM (#2869773)

Class of '86, sotapop. You?

89. McCoy Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:53 PM (#2869774)

No shout out to TR the king of the "messing around in third world countries and having the locals get pissed off at us"? The start of the banana wars on his watch, which by the way histories great monster FDR ended.

90. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:55 PM (#2869778)

Look, I know conquering drug addiction and coming back to hit all those home runs is impressive, but, really, this has gone too far.

Has it? I know there are a couple months left in the season, but who was the last president to have this good a year?

91. sotapop Posted: July 23, 2008 at 04:57 PM (#2869781)

Class of 88, VLMJerry. Shoot me a message off the board. Email link in my member profile.

92. The Good Face Posted: July 23, 2008 at 05:01 PM (#2869788)

The start of the banana wars on his watch, which by the way histories great monster FDR ended.

In all fairness, those bananas were asking for it.

93. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 05:05 PM (#2869797)

"who was the last president to have this good a year?"

I can think of one, though he's not a US president.

94. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 05:06 PM (#2869798)

Interestingly, there's a currently active US president. Having a decent season, too.

95. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: July 23, 2008 at 05:08 PM (#2869805)

In all fairness, those bananas were asking for it.

For how long did the fine residents of Vaudeville weather their assaults? Too long, my friend. Too long.

96. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: July 23, 2008 at 05:11 PM (#2869808)

Huh. There's one in the Hall of Fame, too.

Never knew that.

97. Rodder Posted: July 23, 2008 at 05:16 PM (#2869815)

Huh. There's one in the Hall of Fame, too.

Never knew that.

Sure you did.

98. OCF Posted: July 23, 2008 at 05:16 PM (#2869817)

Do losing presidential candidates count?

99. PreservedFish Posted: July 23, 2008 at 05:21 PM (#2869826)

"Thomas Jefferson Davis Bridges"

President of two countries, that one

100. Rodder Posted: July 23, 2008 at 05:22 PM (#2869830)

Do losing presidential candidates count?

Slim William Jennings Bryan Harris, William (Billy) Jennings Bryan Herman, and Pat William Jenning Bryan Patterson say yes.

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