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Thursday, February 07, 2008

Schilling sidelined with more shoulder issues

Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling is not expected to be ready for the start of spring training because of shoulder issues, much like the ones that caused the club to shut him down for seven weeks last season, according to sources. His availability for Opening Day could also be in question, though one source familiar with Schilling’s condition said it was premature to speculate.

Details remain sketchy, but Schilling recently went to see Dr. Craig Morgan, the doctor who performed his shoulder surgery in 1995. Morgan, citing HIPPA regulations, referred all questions to Schilling, who has not yet responded to e-mails sent to him and his publicist seeking confirmation. Red Sox GM Theo Epstein e-mailed a “no comment” when asked about Schilling’s condition.

*** Schilling could be lost for season.

knucklehead7 Posted: February 07, 2008 at 02:22 PM | 79 comment(s)
  Related News: GeneralBoston

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   1. Guapo Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:21 PM (#2685917)
It's HIPAA, not HIPPA. Get it right, #####!
   2. aleskel Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:23 PM (#2685918)
a shoulder injury in the offseason? What did he do, play pick-up shot-put with Aaron Boone?
   3. Zuvella! Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:24 PM (#2685922)
First Romney drops out, and now this. Hmm. Seems McCain will have his ticket very soon.
   4. Valentine Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:25 PM (#2685923)
Pre-existing, I'm sure. He was probably hoping that it would feel better after a winter of rest.

Unless somehow he injured it in those API workouts? Seems improbable.
   5. With 17th Pick, From LA, 1k5v3L KcoLLoP Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:32 PM (#2685930)
Too much PS3 action.
   6. Jeff K. Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:35 PM (#2685934)
The link posted in the Lounge said he might be done for the season. Are these conflicting reports, or is this updated information?
   7. With 17th Pick, From LA, 1k5v3L KcoLLoP Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:37 PM (#2685941)
Jeff, I posted a link to an article on boston.com (in the "Price is right" thread) that said Schill the Thrill could be done for the whole season.

It ain't easy being a windmill
   8. Ray DiPerna Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:42 PM (#2685947)
Worth noting, in terms of what could be expected in 2008 even if he can pitch, is that when he came back from the shoulder injury last year, his K rate was down and his HR rate was up. On the other hand, his BB rate was better upon his return. Of course, sample size issues apply. Still, on the whole his K rate was down from previous seasons -- and was so even before the shoulder injury. (6.7 K/9 before the injury; 4.8 K/9 once he returned.)
   9. Justin Zeth Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:49 PM (#2685956)
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3235556

The Boston Globe and Boston Herald are reporting that Schilling has a shoulder injury that has the right-hander and the club in a dispute over whether he needs surgery and the Red Sox have at least investigated to see if they can void his 2008 contract.


(Emphasis mine.)

If that report is true, the Red Sox think Schilling is done. "Surgery", I assume, would be season-ending and probably career-ending.
   10. Cowboy Popup Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:51 PM (#2685959)
If that report is true, the Red Sox think Schilling is done. "Surgery", I assume, would be season-ending and probably career-ending.

If Schilling is done, there's a whole lot of backstory that's missing. How did he hurt himself? When did he hurt himself? Did he withhold information from the Sox?
   11. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:53 PM (#2685961)
Figure they just slot Buchholz and Lester into the rotation right from the start, then?
   12. Justin Zeth Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:53 PM (#2685962)
The Red Sox must think they have some legal grounds to void the contract, and the fact that they want to doesn't speak to their being optimistic that he'll pitch in 2008. It's probably a reasonable guess that the Red Sox think Schilling aggravated his shoulder injury doing something his contract forbids him from doing.
   13. The Piehole of David Wells Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:53 PM (#2685963)
i hope they're not trying to void his contract. if he's done, he should retire and they should hire him as a pitching coach.
   14. With 17th Pick, From LA, 1k5v3L KcoLLoP Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:54 PM (#2685965)
#10: shawl knitting. Ok, so I'm running out of ideas.

if he's done, he should retire and they should hire him as a pitching coach.
why the hell should he do that? because theo is so dreamy?
   15. aleskel Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:55 PM (#2685966)
I had no idea World of Warcraft was so high-impact
   16. Shooty Is A One Man Legion Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:58 PM (#2685972)
Figure they just slot Buchholz and Lester into the rotation right from the start, then?

Makes sense to me. They both seem more than ready.
   17. Justin Zeth Posted: February 07, 2008 at 04:59 PM (#2685973)
I had no idea World of Warcraft was so high-impact


If you're sitting in your chair wrong, it can be hell on your mouse shoulder.
   18. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:01 PM (#2685974)
Figure they just slot Buchholz and Lester into the rotation right from the start, then?
This is why I'm glad they hung on to Julian Tavarez. There is no such thing as too much starting pitching depth.
   19. Justin Zeth Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:01 PM (#2685975)
For those of you who paid ESPN, Rob Neyer has a blog post up that succinctly moderates the hysteria, and I agree with him that the Red Sox have no chance in hell at recovering the $8 million. Again, though, that they're trying to certainly means they don't expect to see him pitch in 2008.

It's times like these you're glad you have Tim Wakefield enslaved, eh?
   20. Dan Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:03 PM (#2685977)
Glad they didn't trade for that Santana guy, huh?
   21. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:12 PM (#2685984)
Masterson's not that far from being ready, too, if they need a backup plan at midseason.
   22. snapper Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:15 PM (#2685989)
This should make the AL East a dead heat on an expectation basis. It should be decided by whose kids and decrepit veteran pitch best. Joba/Hughes/Kennedy/Mussina vs. Buchholz/Lester/Masterson/Wakefield. Should be a great race.
   23. jmurph Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:20 PM (#2685993)
This should make the AL East a dead heat on an expectation basis. It should be decidided by whose kids and decrepit veterans pitch best. Joba/Hughes/Kennedy/Mussina vs. Buchholz/Lester/Masterson/Wakefield. Should be a great race.


Closer, yes, but Boston's rotation should still be better, as should their bullpen.

Also, Masterson is 22 and only made 10 starts in AA last year. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt he sees Boston this year.
   24. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:21 PM (#2685995)
Lost for season probably means done forever, doesn't it?

216-146, 3.46 ERA (127 ERA+), 3 20-win seasons, greatest postseason record of a starting pitcher in the contemporary era

My guess is that's enough for the BBWAA, but it'll take a few ballots.

On the merits, counting postseason, peak, and his tiny number of unearned runs, I think Schilling is better than Mussina and about comparable to Kevin Brown. I think the HoF in/out line should be right about in between Mussina and Brown, so I like Schilling for the honor he's likely to get, eventually.
   25. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:23 PM (#2685999)
Also, Masterson is 22 and only made 10 starts in AA last year. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt he sees Boston this year.
Most scouts are projecting Masterson as a reliever. He apparently has no third pitch at all, and his sinker is good enough that he could be pitching in a major league bullpen very soon.

It's odd - if Masterson manages to develop a third pitch, he might have to stay in the minors longer to refine his stuff and get used to long outings. If he can't, he might be shuttled up to the majors more quickly for short relief.
   26. jmurph Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:24 PM (#2686001)
My guess is that's enough for the BBWAA, but it'll take a few ballots.


I feel like Schilling will have the easiest time of that group with the BBWAA, even if Mussina finishes with better numbers. Postseason glory, and all.
   27. Cowboy Popup Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:24 PM (#2686002)
Joba/Hughes/Kennedy/Mussina vs. Buchholz/Lester/Masterson/Wakefield.

I like the Yankee backend. Sox still pick it up on the front end.

Closer, yes, but Boston's rotation should still be better, as should their bullpen.

I'm not sure the Yanks have a bullpen, but I suppose I may have missed something. Mo, Hawkins, Farnsworth, Ramirez, Britton and one of the kids? Is Henn the lefty? Or do they pitch Ohlendorf and screw the matchup thing?
   28. Justin Zeth Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:24 PM (#2686003)
I rate Schilling comparable to Brown on peak and better on career value, and well ahead of Mussina any way you slice it. Schilling and John Smoltz have already done enough to merit Hall of Fame induction.

If Schilling's career is over, I agree with you on all counts as to what I expect to happen. Schilling would be hitting the ballot pretty much by himself as far as qualified pitchers are concerned (him and Clemens, and it's not clear whether Clemens will get McGwired), a year ahead of whoever retires in 2008 (probably Randy Johnson and Tom Glavine, possibly Pedro Martinez, Greg Maddux and John Smoltz). I would expect Schilling won't make it on the first ballot, then will get pushed down by all the 300 game winners for a few years, then make it around his 8th or 9th year of eligibilty.

Schilling does belong.
   29. snapper Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:26 PM (#2686004)
Closer, yes, but Boston's rotation should still be better, as should their bullpen.

True their pitching is still better, but the Yankees outscored them by 100 runs last year. If the Yankees rotation is only a little worse than Boston's, they should be the better team.
   30. aleskel Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:26 PM (#2686005)
I'm not sure the Yanks have a bullpen, but I suppose I may have missed something. Mo, Hawkins, Farnsworth, Ramirez, Britton and one of the kids? Is Henn the lefty? Or do they pitch Ohlendorf and screw the matchup thing?

there's that guy they pick up from the Nats for Tyler Clippard who's name I would even attempt to type out.
   31. Hugh Jorgan Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:28 PM (#2686009)
MC of Alex,
yep, I agree at this stage he is THE definition of borderline HOFer, but will get in after 6-7 ballots(the 20 win seasons, the 3000K, and the postseason "heroics" will do it)

Schill has always been good about keeping his fat, ugly mug in front of the press so that'll help him.

The injury is very sus, maybe smacking Shonda around a bit? Yep, bad taste

And that is why its important to have 6 starters!
   32. snapper Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:30 PM (#2686010)
I'm not sure the Yanks have a bullpen, but I suppose I may have missed something. Mo, Hawkins, Farnsworth, Ramirez, Britton and one of the kids? Is Henn the lefty? Or do they pitch Ohlendorf and screw the matchup thing?

I think you have to add Joba as a long man for a couple of months. I think they are going to use a bunch of the young arms out there.

With his changeup, Ramirez should be very tough on lefties.
   33. jmurph Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:30 PM (#2686011)
I'm not sure the Yanks have a bullpen, but I suppose I may have missed something. Mo, Hawkins, Farnsworth, Ramirez, Britton and one of the kids? Is Henn the lefty? Or do they pitch Ohlendorf and screw the matchup thing?


CP, I'm of the opinion that one of either Joba or Kennedy starts in the bullpen, which certainly helps. I just don't see Mussina starting the year in the bullpen without a whole lot of drama (I definitely don't think he's a bad dude, but come on, he's a "potential hall of famer," veteran, etc).
   34. Cowboy Popup Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:30 PM (#2686012)
On the merits, counting postseason, peak, and his tiny number of unearned runs, I think Schilling is better than Mussina and about comparable to Kevin Brown.

I've seen, but can't recall the specifics of, some pretty convincing arguments that when factor in unearned runs, Schilling has had better value than Brown. I think they should both be in, but it'll be interesting to follow the debates on which is better, especially when Schilling gets in and Brown doesn't.

there's that guy they pick up from the Nats for Tyler Clippard who's name I would even attempt to type out.

Oh yeah, he's supposed to have a great arm. He's not listed on their roster, I hope they don't #### him up.
   35. TerpNats Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:31 PM (#2686014)
Put him in Cooperstown...with a Diamondbacks cap (that's where he had his best years).
   36. snapper Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:31 PM (#2686016)
CP, I'm of the opinion that one of either Joba or Kennedy starts in the bullpen, which certainly helps. I just don't see Mussina starting the year in the bullpen without a whole lot of drama (I definitely don't think he's a bad dude, but come on, he's a "potential hall of famer," veteran, etc).

They've already said Joba is starting in the pen as a long man. I think they want to keep his IP under 150 this year. He'll relieve until somebody gets hurt or Mussina shows he's done.
   37. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:32 PM (#2686018)
I rate Schilling comparable to Brown on peak and better on career value
Better on career value?

211-144, 127 ERA+ - Brown
216-146, 127 ERA+ - Schilling

Schilling is probably somewhat better when you account for the UER totals, but that's only going to make them non-identical, not notably different. Brown's got 1997, a season far better than Schilling's best. Schilling has the postseason. I'll take Schilling, but it's close.

In the voting, Brown is going to get screwed. I think Schilling will take a little while to get elected because of the 216 wins. That's extremely low for a recent BBWAA selection. You have to go back to 1990 and 1991 to find a BBWAA starting pitcher under 300 wins, and Jenkins and Palmer had 284 and 268 respectively.
   38. Justin Zeth Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:37 PM (#2686020)
You have to go back to 1990 and 1991 to find a BBWAA starting pitcher under 300 wins, and Jenkins and Palmer had 284 and 268 respectively.


Bert Blyleven's going to go in in 2010, and (shudder) Jack Morris may also make it before Schilling and company hit the ballot.

Anyway, I think Brown is right on the borderline and Schilling is over it. In the article I wrote about various pitchers a few days ago, I concluded that:

If I was called right now and asked to tell the Hall of Fame which (non-current) pitchers it should induct right now, I would be inclined to tell them to bring in Blyleven (of course), Saberhagen, Stieb, Tiant and Pierce, and that’s where I would stop, at least where 20th century pitchers are concerned.


And I rate Brown and Mussina as ahead of the other four non-Dutch guys; it's close, but I think both are worthy. Schilling and Smoltz, to me, are unquestionably worthy.
   39. galaxieboi Posted: February 07, 2008 at 05:50 PM (#2686034)
Is Kevin Brown going to get pushed back due to his...uhm, sometimes 'attitude issues'? I honestly never paid real close attention to him personality-wise but he seemed to a bit prickly. Am I totally off base here? Perhaps this is was gets Schilling in before Brown.
   40. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 07, 2008 at 06:08 PM (#2686044)
Brown is going to get clipped for being a jerk and for using drugs, while Schilling is going to get a big push forward for his postseason success.
   41. flournoy Posted: February 07, 2008 at 06:09 PM (#2686047)
Kevin Brown will never be inducted at all, I don't think. His reputation always lagged behind his performance. He doesn't have a real definitive team: he came up with the Rangers and spent a long time there, but didn't really have a HoF tenure, his best years came with the Marlins and Padres, where he spent three years combined, and he pitched well with the Dodgers but is remembered better for being on their DL than on their roster. His career ended on a really sour note. He has a very poor personality reputation. He was featured in the Mitchell Report. He doesn't have 300 wins or anywhere close.

To be clear, I think he should go in the Hall of Fame, but it's hard for me to think that he will.
   42. Matt Waters Posted: February 07, 2008 at 06:16 PM (#2686050)
there's that guy they pick up from the Nats for Tyler Clippard who's name I would even attempt to type out.


The thing I really like about Albaladejo is that he can consistently throw his breaking ball for strikes, and generally has solid control. It sounds real elementary, but these attributes are huge for a reliever. He should definitely make the bullpen out of spring training. 12-2 SO to BB ratio in a very small MLB sample last season.

I’m a huge Yankee fan, and thus automatically despise Schilling the pitcher, but you never want to see a guy’s career end because of an injury, especially in the off season. That’s tough.
   43. The Good Face Posted: February 07, 2008 at 06:26 PM (#2686053)
Brown has no chance. Not only did have a reputation as a jerk among writers, but he wasn't well liked by his own teammates either. He would sulk and glare at his fielders when they made errors or failed to make plays he thought should have been made, and often seemed to lose focus when things went wrong, which might explain his high unearned runs compared to Schilling. Plus there's the whole Mitchell report thing.

Kind of pity, because his peak was stratospheric and he was a rare bird, a sinkerballer who could rack up the Ks. Fun guy to watch, because he threw really hard, and when he was on, it seemed impossible to hit the ball hard off him. Sort of like Brandon Webb on steroids. Literally.
   44. Charter Member of the Jesus Melendez Fanclub Posted: February 07, 2008 at 06:44 PM (#2686061)
often seemed to lose focus when things went wrong, which might explain his high unearned runs compared to Schilling

I'd say this is mostly due to his being an extreme groundballer vs. Schilling a flyballer. Your idea may have some merit but it probably accounts for very little of the UER difference.
   45. Jolly Old St. Nick (now, with Screen Name history) Posted: February 07, 2008 at 06:44 PM (#2686062)
I guess this makes the Yanks and Red Sox pretty much even, but I hate to see Schilling go out like this. I'm real big on the heart factor, and he's always had that in spades. Plus I like the fact that he speaks his mind now and then. Way too many ballplayers are completely boring off the field, and I'd much rather put up with a few flaming Republicans than a bunch of noncommittal no commentators. I'm going to miss seeing him out there, and I hope he finds his way into the NESN broadcast booth.

And I agree with the several other Primates who've said that the HoF bar should be somewhere around Brown and Mussina. Schilling and Smoltz are maybe borderline but definitely Hallworthy, and they're both above the other two.
   46. galaxieboi Posted: February 07, 2008 at 06:51 PM (#2686067)
Better on career value?

211-144, 127 ERA+ - Brown
216-146, 127 ERA+ - Schilling


Wow. Did you look at Smoltz's career totals?

207-145, 127 ERA+

Double wow.
   47. John Lynch Posted: February 07, 2008 at 06:56 PM (#2686073)
Wow. Did you look at Smoltz's career totals?

207-145, 127 ERA+

Double wow.

Of course that's slightly misleading on both ends. His ERA+ will be propped up by his work in the bullpen, but that also serves to drive his win total down. Still weird though.
   48. Valentine Posted: February 07, 2008 at 07:08 PM (#2686087)
Glad they didn't trade for that Santana guy, huh?

An Ellsbury/Lowrie/Masterson package would definitely look better today than it did last week.

Still, Schilling was their #4 starter (by projected ERA) and was never in the plans for more than 20-25 starts. I'm not going to shed too many tears.
   49. Fat Al Posted: February 07, 2008 at 07:16 PM (#2686098)
I guess this makes the Yanks and Red Sox pretty much even, but I hate to see Schilling go out like this. I'm real big on the heart factor, and he's always had that in spades. Plus I like the fact that he speaks his mind now and then. Way too many ballplayers are completely boring off the field, and I'd much rather put up with a few flaming Republicans than a bunch of noncommittal no commentators. I'm going to miss seeing him out there, and I hope he finds his way into the NESN broadcast booth.


You don't think Schilling goes straight to BBTN? I always assumed he'd be a regular on ESPN immediately upon retirement.
   50. Darren Posted: February 07, 2008 at 07:24 PM (#2686102)
Well, I hope someone asks Kim or Williamson what this says about Curt's toughness and manhood.

It's sort of a shame that this just came to light about 2 seconds after the Santana deal got wrapped up, isn't it? Lousy timing. I think the Red Sox are a good solid starter short of where I'd be comfortable right now.
   51. Jolly Old St. Nick (now, with Screen Name history) Posted: February 07, 2008 at 07:24 PM (#2686103)
You don't think Schilling goes straight to BBTN? I always assumed he'd be a regular on ESPN immediately upon retirement.

Even better if he does go to BBTN, Fat Al. Put him up there with Clemens and watch the fun begin.
   52. Joe Bivens, Proud Union Member Posted: February 07, 2008 at 07:29 PM (#2686106)
Think the Mets would take the Ellsbury package?
   53. The Answer to the TWolves (GMoney) Posted: February 07, 2008 at 07:32 PM (#2686108)
I thought the same thing as a couple others. I wonder if this news would have changed Theo's mind about giving a serious offer to the Twins for Johan.
   54. Srul Itza Posted: February 07, 2008 at 07:33 PM (#2686109)
Also regarding these three:

IP

3256 - Brown
3261 - Schilling
3367 - Smoltz

K

2397 - Brown
2975 - Smoltz
3116 - Schilling



With those 207 wins, Smoltz also has 154 saves. The difference created by the ease of pitching fewer inning versus the value of the extra leverage of those innings = hell if I know.

The post season is really where Brown slides off this scale:

11-2, 133 IP, 2.23 ERA, 120 K - Schilling
15-4, 207 IP, 2.65 ERA, 194 K - Smoltz (4 saves)
5-5, 81 IP, 4.19 ERA, 71 K - Brown


For his regular season (1 CYA), closing, and post season prowess, and his spot as one of Atlanta's historic "Big 3" -- and for the fact that he may catch up to and surpass Schilling in wins and Ks -- Smoltz is the most likely to get in.

For his regular season, and post season prowess, and especially for his iconic role in two huge post season series wins over the Yankees, I think Schilling will also get in.

I think Brown is the least of these three, his "higher peak" (which really comes down to one especially great year) notwithstanding. I don't know if he deserves enshrinement, but I agree with those who don't think he is likely to get it.
   55. Darren Posted: February 07, 2008 at 07:49 PM (#2686119)
This is where Schilling's blog will come in handy. I'm sure we'll be able to hear immediately, first hand, how exactly he hurt himself.
   56. Zuvella! Posted: February 07, 2008 at 08:04 PM (#2686123)
It's sort of a shame that this just came to light about 2 seconds after the Santana deal got wrapped up, isn't it? Lousy timing. I think the Red Sox are a good solid starter short of where I'd be comfortable right now.

But haven't they known for a little while, like probably before the Santana trade? This seems to have been kept under wraps. I think a whole appeal to mlb office happened. I'd guess it's been known for a couple of weeks. I think the Sox regained their senses and realized they were not in a desperate situation regarding their rotation and avoided the huge contract Santana was definitely going to get.
   57. El Hombre Triple Crown? (Le Samourai) Posted: February 07, 2008 at 08:23 PM (#2686130)
216-146, 3.46 ERA (127 ERA+), 3 20-win seasons, greatest postseason record of a starting pitcher in the contemporary era


I'll take Smoltz for that honor. ERA is .4 higher but he has 70 more innings, and his WS ERA is his best of any postseason round, at 2.47 in 51 innings. Of course, Schilling is 2.06 in 48 WS innings.
   58. Justin Zeth Posted: February 07, 2008 at 08:34 PM (#2686135)
The sad thing is that I doubt J. Random voter realizes how excellent John Smoltz's postseason record was; he thinks of John Smoltz and says, "oh, he pitched for the Braves; they always choked in the postseason." I guarantee you that 5-6 years from now when they come eligible for the Hall of Fame, you'll read more than one article written by someone wishing to tell you that Curt Schilling was clutch in the postseason and John Smoltz was not. Why? Because Schilling's team won. John Smoltz, he just didn't know how to win in the postseason. And you know how we know that? Because he couldn't win game 7 of the 1991 World Series. He got out-clutched by Hall of Famer Jack Morris.

I can see it now, and I'm already cringing...
   59. Ray DiPerna Posted: February 07, 2008 at 08:55 PM (#2686146)
The sad thing is that I doubt J. Random voter realizes how excellent John Smoltz's postseason record was;


I'm not sure about this, Justin. The voters seem to pay attention to postseason performance -- well, I mean that they write about it a lot; I'm not sure how much weight even they give it in HOF voting, other than for tiebreakers. (EDITED) Is there a pitcher who is in the HOF with postseason performance being a significant part of his case? (Ruffing maybe?) I would say Catfish but he wasn't going to be denied once he had the 20-win seasons and the reputation as a winner.
   60. RB in NYC (Now with a Training Schedule!) Posted: February 07, 2008 at 08:56 PM (#2686147)
I can see it now, and I'm already cringing...
Smoltz must have some of the most "Tough Loss" games in post-season history. In Game 7 of '91, Game 5 of '96 and Game 3 of '99, his combined line:

22.3 IP, 1.20 ERA, 25 K, 7 BB

And for all that, he got no two losses and a no-decision as Morris, Pettitte and Clemens all pitched gems.
   61. Frank Rook Posted: February 07, 2008 at 09:08 PM (#2686153)
I think Schilling post career will focus heavily on developing his MMORPG. I don't know how much time being an analyst for ESPN takes, but if it's fairly intensive I don't think he goes there. I think a Fox gig might make sense for him, only working one day a week with a heavier commitment in October.

I think Kevin Brown has a good chance of not even getting 5% of the vote and dropping off the first year. He has the misfortune of playing at the same time as some all time greats, and I think that Dag Nabbit has done a good job of showing that the current voters are electing fewer players than in the past.
   62. John DiFool2 Posted: February 07, 2008 at 09:29 PM (#2686168)
Has there ever been 3 HoF starters getting in from one team, with the caveat that all 3 needed to have spent their peak years together on said team? I can't think of one.
   63. baudib Posted: February 07, 2008 at 09:35 PM (#2686172)
Obviously, no.

Not trading for Santana will be one of Theo's biggest mistakes.
   64. Justin Zeth Posted: February 07, 2008 at 09:40 PM (#2686176)
I don't think so, John. There have been combinations of two, like Koufax and Drysdale, or Early Wynn and Bob Lemon, among others. As far as I know, Maddux/Glavine/Smoltz will be the first triumverate, and what's even more impressive is that Maddux and Glavine are inner-circle guys, not marginal types like Drysdale or Lemon.
   65. Darren Posted: February 07, 2008 at 09:41 PM (#2686178)
Bigger than his 2004 and 2007 championships? :)

Reading the backstory a bit, I guess it's clear they've known about Schilling's problems for a while. It's surprising, then, that they weren't more aggressive in going after Johan.
   66. Valentine Posted: February 07, 2008 at 10:10 PM (#2686199)
Could the Red Sox have gotten Santana as "cheaply" as the Mets did? First, the Twins might be higher on Gomez and Guerra than we are. We devalue them because we are uncertain how they will develop. If the Twins have greater confidence in the scouting, then they'll value them accordingly higher. Maybe they even like Humber and Mulvey? Second, suppose the Red Sox HAD offered a better package in that final conversation? Might the Yankees not have jumped back in as well? Good news, I suppose, if your objective is to deprive the Yankees of Hughes and Cabrera. Bad news if you are concerned about facing Santana five or six times a year. The Yankees had the capacity to top any Red Sox package if they chose. (Is this an instance of the Prisoner's Dilemma?)

Early in the negotiations, it seemed that the Red Sox were pushing Lester and the Twins were asking Ellsbury (or more likely, asking for Ellsbury AND Lester). In the final week, the Red Sox reportedly pulled Lester off the table -- perhaps we now know why? Trading Lester for Santana is an upgrade, for sure, but it doesn't add depth. Would you trade Santana for Ellsbury+Lowrie+Masterson over Gomez+Guerra+Humber+Mulvey? Gomez has the highest ceiling of the bunch, even if he is less likely to help the Twins contend in 2008.
   67. ellsbury my heart at wounded knee Posted: February 07, 2008 at 10:42 PM (#2686217)
I guess now he may not have the surgery?

from boston.com

Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling will not have shoulder surgery for what appears to be a partial tear of his rotator cuff, despite the recommendation of the doctor who operated on the shoulder in 1995, and will follow the more conservative course recommended by Sox medical director Thomas Gill, after the club and player agreed to submit to today's recommendation by an outside medical expert.

Even without surgery, the 41-year-old Schilling is not expected to be ready to pitch until at least the All-Star break, according to several sources familiar with his condition.
   68. Jolly Old St. Nick (now, with Screen Name history) Posted: February 07, 2008 at 11:01 PM (#2686237)
The sad thing is that I doubt J. Random voter realizes how excellent John Smoltz's postseason record was; he thinks of John Smoltz and says, "oh, he pitched for the Braves; they always choked in the postseason." I guarantee you that 5-6 years from now when they come eligible for the Hall of Fame, you'll read more than one article written by someone wishing to tell you that Curt Schilling was clutch in the postseason and John Smoltz was not. Why? Because Schilling's team won. John Smoltz, he just didn't know how to win in the postseason. And you know how we know that? Because he couldn't win game 7 of the 1991 World Series. He got out-clutched by Hall of Famer Jack Morris.

I can see it now, and I'm already cringing...


That may hold for writers who weren't watching baseball in the 90's, but for those who were, Smoltz's reputation is pretty much that of a postseason God. He was the only one of Atlanta's Big Three to be below a 3.00 ERA in all three rounds of the postseason, and finished overall at 2.65 with 207 innings. That's better than Whitey Ford on both counts, and Ford is usually considered as one of the Gold Standards for the postseason.

Funny thing about that Big Three. All of them pitched better in the World Series than they did in the other two rounds, and yet the Braves only won one Series in all that time.
   69. The Mets make Russlan sad Posted: February 07, 2008 at 11:07 PM (#2686239)
I think a Fox gig might make sense for him, only working one day a week with a heavier commitment in October.

Talk about your catch 22s. On one side, you want your team to be in the playoffs. On the other, you'd have to listen to Schilling talk. Ugh.
   70. Gambling Rent Czar Posted: February 07, 2008 at 11:24 PM (#2686252)
figures.
i got $1.00 bid out on the fool. just opened with him ...
now i have to carry the s.o.b. on my DL spot all year, just in case.

have to look at his name daily!


grrr
   71. It's All Voxter Now, Baby Blue Posted: February 08, 2008 at 02:22 AM (#2686337)
I find myself faced with a dilemma I have faced many times over the last few years: my Red Sox fandom v. my loathing of all things Schilling. It's easier to resolve in this case than usual. I had no faith that Schilling would be any good this year, and am glad to see him cleared out of the rotation without a lot of strum und drang. Sayonara, Schilling, you beautiful son of a #####.
   72. Ivan Grushenko of HK in St Louis Posted: February 08, 2008 at 02:57 AM (#2686343)
Early Wynn and Bob Lemon

And Bob Feller?

EDIT: Also the A's had Plank, Bender and Waddell
   73. Exploring Leftist Conservatism since 2008 (ark..) Posted: February 08, 2008 at 03:47 AM (#2686350)
Red Sox pitcher Curt Schilling will not have shoulder surgery for what appears to be a partial tear of his rotator cuff, despite the recommendation of the doctor who operated on the shoulder in 1995, and will follow the more conservative course recommended by Sox medical director Thomas Gill, after the club and player agreed to submit to today's recommendation by an outside medical expert.

Even without surgery, the 41-year-old Schilling is not expected to be ready to pitch until at least the All-Star break, according to several sources familiar with his condition.


I'm guessing here that Schilling might choose to not undergo surgery simply in order to have a better chance of pitching this year (which at his age might be his last chance to pitch).

That may hold for writers who weren't watching baseball in the 90's, but for those who were, Smoltz's reputation is pretty much that of a postseason God. He was the only one of Atlanta's Big Three to be below a 3.00 ERA in all three rounds of the postseason, and finished overall at 2.65 with 207 innings. That's better than Whitey Ford on both counts, and Ford is usually considered as one of the Gold Standards for the postseason.


It's just incredible, isn't it? That's a full season's worth of brilliant pitching against the toughest teams in baseball. Definitely what puts him over, imo.
   74. CONservative governMENt Posted: February 08, 2008 at 06:50 AM (#2686360)
Getting Gehrig38 back at the All-Star Break will be like Theo pulling off a deadline trade for a top starter.
   75. Justin Zeth Posted: February 08, 2008 at 08:08 AM (#2686365)
Not if his shoulder's all frayed and he tops out at 88 MPH. Rotator cuff tears are pretty serious business. I'm pessimistic about the chances Schilling will pitch effectively again.
   76. Judges 20:16 (the Lord's bullpen) Posted: February 08, 2008 at 09:00 AM (#2686373)
Smoltz, as a good Pennsylvanian, is a solid polka accordian player. This is worth at least 2 ringzz in the HOF balloting.
   77. Stately, Plump Buck Mulligan Posted: February 08, 2008 at 10:17 AM (#2686405)
Getting Gehrig38 back at the All-Star Break will be like Theo pulling off a deadline trade for a top starter.


Plus, it (presumably) wouldn't involve the months of nervous fumbling that most of Theo's trades (or, rather, trade attempts) involve.
   78. Mushroy Posted: February 08, 2008 at 10:50 AM (#2686426)
I wonder if this news would have changed Theo's mind about giving a serious offer to the Twins for Johan.

God I hope not. If the health of an old, slightly above average pitcher signed to a one year contract had any real impact on whether Theo pulls the trigger on a 3+ prospect $150M acquisition, then I'd have serious concerns about the longterm competitiveness of this team.
I hope Schilling can still give us a quality half season, but if not, I'll be pretty psyched to see what the kids can do. Nothing against Schill, but from the irrational fanboy perspective I think this season just got more exciting.
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