Former St. Louis Cardinals shortstop Marty Marion celebrates his 91st birthday today, Monday, December 1. Why is he again going to miss out on joining Baseball’s Hall of Fame in 2009?

Perhaps because he's like the 50th or so best eligible SS candidate? Geez, if everyone more deserving than a solid defensive, no-hit SS with a short career with his best seasons against war replacements was inducted, the Hall of Fame would have to make a new wing that stretches halfway down to Oneonta.

I swear, people aren't going to stop until every full-time player that played between 1930 and the first modern expansion is in the Hall of Fame. We're already at the point at which in some of those seasons, as many as a quarter of starting position players were Hall of Famers.

I just hope I'm not so senile in 50 years that I'm writing articles about how it's time that the youngsters get off their asses and vote Orlando Cabrera or Jay Bell into the Hall. And as silly as that sounds, both are clearly better candidates than Marty Marion.

I know Marion's D was supposed to be unreal, but...

Phil Rizzuto, a lowest tier of the HoF choice if there ever was one, and a reasonable comp for Marion (excellent defensive SS, mostly so-so hitter, one largely undeserved MVP) is nonetheless clearly better.

PR 6711 PA, .271/.351/.355/93 OPS+
MM 6141 PA, .263/.323/.345/81

Sorry, Marty. They got this one right, and there's really no doubt about it.

Sorry, Marty. They got this one right, and there's really no doubt about it.

Word. And one wonders if the writers hadn't voted Marion that ridiculous MVP award, whether he'd even have attained the status he has. One imprudent election shouldn't lead to another.

And the man who has his position on the Cardinals' Mt. Rushmore:

OS 10778 PA, .262/.337/.328/87 (wildly OBP/SLG unbalanced), 580-148 as a basestealer, a better fielder for a much longer time. Not comparable.

For whatever reason, being a defensive stalwart seems to have closed off the most important career recognition possible – selection to the Baseball Hall of Fame.

Bill Mazeroski says hi.

One imprudent election shouldn't lead to another.

Barack Obama says hi.

Perhaps because he's like the 50th or so best eligible SS candidate? Geez, if everyone more deserving than a solid defensive, no-hit SS with a short career with his best seasons against war replacements was inducted, the Hall of Fame would have to make a new wing that stretches halfway down to Oneonta.

But it's his 91st birthday. You are all cruel, heartless SOB's, and when he dies you'll all be sorry...

Perhaps because he's like the 50th or so best eligible SS candidate?

Unless Marion's dee was as good as Ozzie Smith's - you're being charitable.

PR 6711 PA, .271/.351/.355/93 OPS+
MM 6141 PA, .263/.323/.345/81

Sorry, Marty. They got this one right, and there's really no doubt about it.

Plus Phil missed 1943/44 and 45 to WWII, Marion didn't miss any time- he PLAYED during WWII
SSs with 600+PAs during the Big One:
Player OPS+ PA From To
+----+-----------------+----+-----+----+----+
1 Lou Boudreau 132 2336 1942 1945
2 Vern Stephens 130 2450 1942 1945
3 Luke Appling 122 1360 1942 1945
4 Johnny Pesky 119 686 1942 1942
5 Eddie Lake 112 1008 1943 1945
6 Phil Rizzuto 103 613 1942 1942
7 Pee Wee Reese 98 655 1942 1942
8 Marty Marion 95 2059 1942 1945
9 Buddy Kerr 87 1313 1943 1945
10 Skeeter Newsome 84 1585 1942 1945
11 Frankie Crosetti 82 1467 1942 1945
12 Frankie Gustine 82 1845 1942 1945
13 Ed Busch 76 1000 1943 1945
14 Billy Jurges 76 1546 1942 1945
15 Lennie Merullo 76 1714 1942 1945
16 Joe Hoover 73 1384 1943 1945
17 Eddie Miller 72 2247 1942 1945
18 Gil Torres 72 1156 1944 1945
19 Damon Phillips 70 624 1942 1944
20 Dick Culler 69 786 1943 1945
21 Whitey Wietelmann 69 1563 1942 1945
22 John Sullivan 68 1447 1942 1944
23 Skeeter Webb 44 1313 1942 1945

Post WWII Marion put up a 75 OPS+
Pre WWII Marion put up a 74 OPS+
A good/great defensive SS with an OPS+ under 90 can m,ake teh Hall with 10,000+ PAs:
16 Ozzie Smith 87 10778 1978 1996
17 Luis Aparicio 82 11230 1956 1973
18 Rabbit Maranville 82 11256 1912 1935

Marion was (WWII aside) a sub 80 offensive player and he had just 6141 PAs,
He's closer to Bud Harrelson than he is to a HOFer,
If Marion why not Greg Gagne?
Or Peckinpaugh?
Or Shawon Dunston????

Marion's problem isn't that he doesn't match up well with Hall of Famers, but that he doesn't even match up well with people that haven't gotten any consideration at all for the Hall.

Don't you guys have Jim Rice to bash ;)?

I must say that I hope that I look as good at 88 as Marion does in that pic in the article.

One imprudent election shouldn't lead to another.

Barack Obama says hi.

Take it to the politics thread. Seriously.

Obama's election to the presidency should not be followed by his election as World's Sexiest Man.

I must say that I hope that I look as good at 88 as Marion does in that pic in the article.

Yeah, he looks younger than Lenny Dykstra.

had no idea the dude was still alive. if he gets in, i bet that makes him oldest living hof'er. feller is 90.

Marion's problem isn't that he doesn't match up well with Hall of Famers, but that he doesn't even match up well with people that haven't gotten any consideration at all for the Hall.

If Marion got in I'd start a Committee to elect Tony Fernandez- and mail fliers to each and every Vet Committee member (or whatever the hell it is now) telling them that Tony blows Marty away

Unless Marion's dee was as good as Ozzie Smith's - you're being charitable.

50th does look kind of nice. After I wrote that, I started thinking I had like 20 in about a minute and that was without going back to guys like Jack Glasscock.

Word. And one wonders if the writers hadn't voted Marion that ridiculous MVP award

I've heard a few times that Zoilo had the worst career of any MVP winner...
I'm not sure, looking at Marion's career- depending on how much you want to discount his war years- Zoilo may have had a better career (Zoilo's MVP season was definitely better)

I just hope I'm not so senile in 50 years that I'm writing articles about how it's time that the youngsters get off their asses and vote Orlando Cabrera or Jay Bell into the Hall

funny you should mention Bell

1 Lou Boudreau 132 2336 1942 1945
2 Vern Stephens 130 2450 1942 1945
3 Luke Appling 122 1360 1942 1945
5 Eddie Lake 112 1008 1943 1945
8 Marty Marion 95 2059 1942 1945

Was there a shortstop exemption for the draft?

Was there a shortstop exemption for the draft?

Well, they were supporting their home infields, and all.

Jeez, it's just a nice encomium to an old dude. Nothing to get worked up over.

After I wrote that, I started thinking I had like 20 in about a minute and that was without going back to guys like Jack Glasscock.

Glasscock Glasscock Glasscock, hee hee hee heeeeee.

From the story:

With the passing of Don Gutteridge in September, that mantle passed on to former catcher Herman Franks. Franks, age 94, played with the club in 17 games in 1939.

Now this I find amazing. Herman Franks was borderline obese when he managed the Cubs 30 years ago, and likely has chewed more tobacco than any living being, yet is still alive.

There's hope for us yet.

Jeez, it's just a nice encomium to an old dude. Nothing to get worked up over.


But, this article does a disservice to Marty Marion. You don't do a person any favors by making ludicrous comparisons involving them.

I mean, I enjoy reading George RR Martin, but I wouldn't be helping him out at all if I went around saying he should get a Nobel Prize for Literature.

But would you be hurting Martin?

Jeez, it's just a nice encomium to an old dude. Nothing to get worked up over.

I think this also does a disservice to the writer. I have to assume that he wants his argument to be taken seriously and at face value. If I were him I'd prefer to have my readers sharply disagree rather than patting me on the head and saying "that's very cute. How nice."

Robert Jordan:George RR Martin:Tolkien::Marion:Ripken:Wagner

But would you be hurting Martin?

Probably, considering all the jokes that would ensue from those that read the article!

If folks weren't as snarky as you, Dan, that wouldn't be an issue.

You don't do a person any favors by making ludicrous comparisons involving them.

What Jon said. If you tell everyone this 91-year-old guy was a damn good ballplayer, where's the harm? And why not remind everyone how highly he was regarded in his own time? It's just nice is all. I don't agree with the thesis, but I don't have a problem with it given the true nature of it.

When George RR Martin hits 91, we can say silly nice things about him.

At his 95th birthday party, my grandfather commented that he was amazed at how much better a person he had apparently become by the simple virtue of not being dead.

What Yearrrghhh said. Either ignore a article or take it seriously; don't say, "What harm does it do that it's stupid?" If someone wants to write an article that says, "So-and-so was my childhood hero," then it's gratuitous to point out that so-and-so was crappy. But if someone writes that so-and-so belongs in the Hall, then what's wrong with looking at whether in fact he belongs in the Hall?

Moreover, what if people reads it and mistakenly think Marion does belong in the Hall?

I mean, I enjoy reading George RR Martin, but I wouldn't be helping him out at all if I went around saying he should get a Nobel Prize for Literature.

Fantasy isn't a genre that gets considered by the Nobel committee (more's the pity!) but Martin's among the best at what he does. I'm probably a minority of one, but I don't think giving Martin a medal would be the stupidest thing they've ever done.

I guess I'll just have to agree to disagree with the Oriole bloc on this issue.

Moreover, what if people reads it and mistakenly think Marion does belong in the Hall?

I'd never seen snark defended as a vital public service. Kudos Dan.

I'd never seen snark defended as a vital public service. Kudos Dan.

I want my Profile in Courage, dammit!

BTW, I never realized that I would be the common enemy who would unite Dan, DMN, and Yearrgghhhh.

BTW, I never realized that I would be the common enemy who would unite Dan, DMN, and Yearrgghhhh.


You're just mad that you haven't successfully made a blood-enemy.

Though I'll be one today since your fantasy team beat mine!

You're just mad that you haven't successfully made a blood-enemy.

No kidding. When I wrote that article about Kuhn and Cuba, the thread got few responses. I should have called for the assassination of Castro or one of the counter-revoltionaries. That would have got people going.

Who is Da Bees Knees? Last time I checked, he's 12 and oh.

Who is Da Bees Knees? Last time I checked, he's 12 and oh.


That's John Bordeaux's team. I'm not sure if he still posts - he's one of the original owners from 2002.

SJ's team is the most scary, IMO.

Speaking of blood enemies, I used to think Voros was pissed at me becuase I didn't like DIPS. I see he hasn't updated his site since August. Is he still around?

Fantasy isn't a genre that gets considered by the Nobel committee (more's the pity!)

No kidding. Until checking Wikipedia just now, I'd been sort of assuming for decades that Jorge Luis Borges had won a Nobel.

Wrong!

I'm now searching my memory for what I've read of Martin's. Fevre Dream & ... Armageddon Rag? The former, I guess, is pretty much a horror novel -- with the exception of Jonathan Carroll these days & Thomas Burnett Swann a few decades ago, I'm not much of a fantasy reader.

Speaking of blood enemies, I used to think Voros was pissed at me becuase I didn't like DIPS. I see he hasn't updated his site since August. Is he still around?

Dunno, haven't heard from him in a while.

I'm sorry to inform you that I don't remember him having an issue with you. If anyone's his blood enemy on this site, it's Backlasher.

If you really want problems, write an article that Jim Rice and the Bush administration should be in the Hall of Fame.

BTW, I never realized that I would be the common enemy who would unite Dan, DMN, and Yearrgghhhh.

Just remember to use that power wisely.

I'm sorry to inform you that I don't remember him having an issue with you.

I eventually realized that. I wasn't as vocal an opponent as Gaelan, for example. Voros probably doesn't even know that I exist, anyways.

I sometimes suspect that I'm on some BPro enemy list, but I think that I'm assuming that Sheehan and Kahrl are as big archivists as I am.

I'm sorry to inform you that I don't remember him having an issue with you. If anyone's his blood enemy on this site, it's Backlasher.

In one of his last posts on this site that I saw, Voros made an oddly childish attack on MWE for what it's worth...

In one of his last posts on this site that I saw, Voros made an oddly childish attack on MWE for what it's worth...

He was being sarcastic and a bit rude in the Swisher trade thread on TO.

22 John Sullivan 68 1447 1942 1944

John Sullivan used to play semi-pro ball and remained friends with my father-in-law. He was drafted late and missed 1945 season and then 1946 while recovering from wounds. He and my father-in-law also founded the local recreational basketball league. He passed away recently and B-Ref doesn't have it. I'll try to find an obit to send them.

Fantasy isn't a genre that gets considered by the Nobel committee (more's the pity!) but Martin's among the best at what he does. I'm probably a minority of one, but I don't think giving Martin a medal would be the stupidest thing they've ever done.

If they don't give one to Gene Wolfe first, it would be.

He was being sarcastic and a bit rude in the Swisher trade thread on TO.

I think most White Sox fans would be in that mood!

50th does look kind of nice. After I wrote that, I started thinking I had like 20 in about a minute and that was without going back to guys like Jack Glasscock.

Jack Glasscock was way too brittle to merit consideration anyhow.

The Sox, with or without Marion, have had a lot of Hall of Famers not in for managing manage their team:

Eddie Collins, Larry Doby, Hugh Duffy, Johnny Evers, Bob Lemon, Ted Lyons, Ray Schalk, Ed Walsh

The crosstown Cubs have had 10 (Anson, Boudreau, Bresnahan, Chance, Evers, Frisch, Hartnett, Hornsby, Maranville, Tinker).

one largely undeserved MVP

I shouldn't parrot Bill James here, but is Rizzuto's MVP really undeserved? He had a hell of a year - 324/418/439 from a top-notch defensive SS is an MVP year today, much less from a lower scoring era like 1950. I suppose Doby might have been better, but god, it's nowhere near Marion's MVP season in terms of unworthiness.

is Rizzuto's MVP really undeserved? He had a hell of a year - 324/418/439 from a top-notch defensive SS is an MVP year today, much less from a lower scoring era like 1950. I suppose Doby might have been better, but god, it's nowhere near Marion's MVP season in terms of unworthiness.

Actually 1950, particularly in the AL, wasn't a lower scoring era than today; it was extremely comparable, even a little higher.

But your larger point is well-taken: the issue with Rizzuto's MVP season isn't that it was necessarily undeserved (you can make a case for some other guys in the league, but Rizzuto would have to be a close contender even if he didn't get it), so much as it was that it was a fluke season for him, vastly better than anything else he ever did. Whereas Marion got the MVP while having the same blah year he had about seven other times.

I can't even find how he did in the HoM.

Actually 1950, particularly in the AL, wasn't a lower scoring era than today; it was extremely comparable, even a little higher.

League average in 1950 was .271/.356/.402
that was WITH pitchers hitting

for instance the NL in 2006 hit .265/.334/.427

in AL 1950, the average batter walked in 11.3% of his PAs (79 per 700 {PAs)
in NL 2006, the average batter walked in 8.8% of his PAs (62 per 700 {PAs)

in AL 1950, the average batter homered in 2.3% of his PAs (16.1 per 700 {PAs)
in NL 2006, the average batter homered in 3.2% of his PAs (22.4 per 700 {PAs)

Homers and walks... those are the two main differences between 1950 AL and the current era. Many more homers now, many more walks (and fewer Ks) then.

I can't even find how he did in the HoM.

You're talking about Marion? He was eligible in 1958, and good enough for Dan G to list him on his master list of that year's new eligibles. I just read through the 1958 discussion thread, looking for Marion-related posts. I made one such post (it's #56) that was mostly about the 1944 MVP vote, which drew a desultory few responses, and that was it. There was a fair amount of talk about middle infielders on that thread, but it was about Doerr, Gordon, Sewell, Boudreau and Herman - not about Marion. Clearly, Marion never drew any votes, and no one ever suggested that he should have drawn any votes.

Robert Jordan:George RR Martin:Tolkien::Marion:Ripken:Wagner

I nominate Terry Brooks for "replacement level fantasy writer".

Replacement level for fantasy writers is really, really low. For example

...the issue with Rizzuto's MVP season isn't that it was necessarily undeserved (you can make a case for some other guys in the league, but Rizzuto would have to be a close contender even if he didn't get it), so much as it was that it was a fluke season for him, vastly better than anything else he ever did.

A perfect description of Zoilo Versalles. Of course, Rizzuto had more of a career than Versalles. In particular, Versalles crashed pretty hard from 1965 to 1966 to 1967. (OPS+ 115 to 83 to 52.)

In particular, Versalles crashed pretty hard from 1965 to 1966 to 1967. (OPS+ 115 to 83 to 52.)

That isn't "crashing pretty hard." That's plunging off El Capitan. Versalles' mid-career implosion was one of the very most stunning and shocking in history; only Steve Blass outdoes it.

There seems to be consensus that Marty Marion isn't a strong HoF candidate. So the question is, why did he poll as well as he did by the writers who had seen him play, during his last 10 years of BBWAA eligibility? He never came close to being elected, but he ran pretty consistently in the second tier -- seventh- or eight-place -- with triple digits in the vote and usually ahead of a player or two who since has been selected for the Hall.

Versalles' mid-career implosion was one of the very most stunning and shocking in history; only Steve Blass outdoes it.

The player I thought of was Garry Templeton. Versalles had OPS+ at age 23-24-25 of 94-104-115, including an MVP. Templeton had OPS+ at ages 21 through 25 of 110-91-112-108-98. No MVP but a lot of flashy markers like 200-hit seasons and a lot of attention. Both dropped after age 25. Versalles dropped all the way to useless, although he got several chances (and I can understand why he'd get chances.) Templeton had a long career as a lesser but still useful player, with an OPS+ often near 80.

ess eff: it has a lot to do with single explanations (Marion was an outstanding defensive shortstop) and the the fact that appreciating defense was how sophisticated baseball fans have expressed their superior understanding of the game. I've got a copy of an essay someone wrote in around 1910 which said something to the effect that if you talked to some random kid on the street and asked who a good baseball player, you'd hear a lot about Cobb and Wagner. Sure, those guys could hit - but the rare soul who truly understood "scientific" baseball would understand the superior defensive prowess of ... (wait for it) ... Hal Chase.

OK, mentioning that name kind of spoils the atmosphere but the impulse has long been there. (I remember hearing some adult in the mid-90's lecturing some Little League kid that if he really understood, he'd realize why Ivan Rodriguez was better than Mike Piazza.)

Of course, why Marion and not Mark Belanger? Because Belanger had a lifetime BA of .228 to Marion's .263. So it isn't quite single explanation. But it still isn't a system that realistically evaluates.

Sure, those guys could hit - but the rare soul who truly understood "scientific" baseball would understand the superior defensive prowess of ... (wait for it) ... Hal Chase.

To be fair, defense was *very* important during the deadball era, probably more important than any time before or since. Baseball teams today might *talk* about the importance of defense, but they rarely act on it; in the aughts and teens, they did. Players who were good hitters but indifferent fielders weren't often able to hold jobs.

-- MWE

Marion probably also did well because I'm assuming he was likeable and he was a key contributor on excellent teams, which usually gives a halo effect on some players.

In terms of defense-focused arguments, this summer my friend continually argued that Mike Matheny was more valuable than Mike Piazza because his defense was so much better and outweighed any offensive value of Piazza. We had a few very LOUD arguments in our dorm before everyone else said we couldn't talk about it anymore.

To be fair, defense was *very* important during the deadball era, probably more important than any time before or since. Baseball teams today might *talk* about the importance of defense, but they rarely act on it; in the aughts and teens, they did. Players who were good hitters but indifferent fielders weren't often able to hold jobs.

Yes. And moreover, defense at first base was immensely more crucial and challenging in the deadball era than since: crucial because of the far greater prevalence of bunts and pickoffs and infield plays in general, and challenging because all this was taking place on crappy infield surfaces and with extremely rudimentary gloves; simply catching throws from infielders, especially throws in the dirt, a task we take for granted today, was damn difficult to pull off in 1910, and required a sure-handedness not demanded of first basemen in later decades.

Looking at his stat sheet, it's hard to understand why Hal Chase was the superstar he was, and how he could possibly have had an impact on game outcomes. But watching him (and his contemporaries) play, I'm sure it would become far clearer.

Replacement level for fantasy writers is really, really low. For example

Want an example of sub-replacement level? Try The Eye of Argon

So the question is, why did he poll as well as he did by the writers who had seen him play,

He was the starting SS on teams that wee really good. Baseball Writers back then were obsessed with "strength up the middle".
If he played for bad teams he simply would not have gotten the same level of "love"- his glove might still be praised, but he would have been deemed om lack some intangible leadership quality or some such thing.

Also the Belanger comparison is instructive- if you are under 35 you might not have any idea how often a baseball announcer or columnist or coach would say that having a good glove SS hit .250 was a "bonus" - Belanger was not that much worse a hitter than Marion- but in pre_Sabr daze, when batting average was king- Marion seemed to be a much better hitter than someone like Belnager:
1940-1953 SS, 2000+ PAs, by batting average:
Cnt Player BA OPS+ PA From To
+----+-----------------+-----+----+-----+----+----+
1 Luke Appling .309 118 5264 1940 1950
2 Alvin Dark .297 107 3849 1946 1953
3 Lou Boudreau .297 122 6765 1940 1952
4 Arky Vaughan .297 123 2666 1940 1948
5 Vern Stephens .287 120 6775 1941 1953
6 Phil Rizzuto .278 96 6096 1941 1953
7 Chico Carrasquel .270 82 2199 1950 1953
8 Ray Boone .269 107 2297 1948 1953
9 Pee Wee Reese .269 102 6950 1940 1953
10 Granny Hamner .265 83 3909 1944 1953

11 Marty Marion .263 81 6141 1940 1953

12 Johnny Lipon .259 78 3088 1942 1953
13 Billy Jurges .254 84 2641 1940 1947
14 Sam Dente .251 61 2220 1947 1953
15 Skeeter Newsome .251 73 2606 1941 1947
16 Buddy Kerr .249 76 4056 1943 1951
17 Virgil Stallcup .241 58 2131 1947 1953
18 Bobby Bragan .240 69 2051 1940 1948
19 Lennie Merullo .240 69 2264 1941 1947
20 Eddie Joost .239 101 6380 1940 1953
21 Eddie Miller .238 81 5415 1940 1950
22 Roy Smalley .232 78 2369 1948 1953
23 Eddie Lake .231 91 3194 1940 1950
24 John Sullivan .230 66 2088 1942 1949
25 Frankie Crosetti .227 73 2355 1940 1948
+----+-----------------+-----+----+-----+----+----+
Ranked by average he's 11th out of 25, ranked by OPS+ he's 14th out of 25

it's hard to understand why Hal Chase was the superstar he was

Because he bribed people to say so?

You're just mad that you haven't successfully made a blood-enemy.

It still irks me that I'm not prominent enough to have a loyal fanbase or a band of detractors, but such is life. I'm still disappointed that I wasn't around for the USENET days. I'd been following sabermetrics offline since 1985.