Well the context with which James is suggesting that idea and that with which Baker suggests it are different. I think James is just saying he wouldn't want to make a guy into something he's not for fear of messing him up so much he's no good at all, rather than good but with discipline flaws. Baker is saying that in the sense that he much prefers hackers to smart hitters.

On Votto: He needs to swing some more...I’d like to see him more aggressive. A lot of this on-base percentage is taking away the aggressiveness of some young kids

Votto got to the Show because of the qualities he possesses as a hitter, not because they wanted him to make the Majors and suddenly change who he is. Sure he has his flaws he can work on, but drilling into his head that he needs to start hacking when he gets by just fine being who he is a bad idea, imo.

EDIT: After RTFA, the last bit on Chili Davis seems to support my point on what James was trying to say.

I had no idea Bill James was so adamant on starting aging veterans over more talented youngsters.

“He needs to swing some more,” Dusty said, talking about Joey Votto. “I talked to him about that. Strikeouts aren’t the only criteria. I’d like to see him more aggressive. A lot of this on-base percentage is taking away the aggressiveness of some young kids.”

I don't think this sounds like James, this sounds like the kind of unquantifiable quandaries he continued to pose during his stint as an analyst/commentator. It's like listening to Bill Walton call a basketball game, though, thankfully, without the catch phrases and cheering.

drilling into his head that he needs to star hacking when he gets by just fine being who he is a bad idea, imo.

Who's imo?

I think there's plenty of problems with Baker's views on OBP. My problem is that often the criticism of those shortcomings turn into "Ichiro should take more walks" arguments that go against what James is saying in the above quote.

I think James would very much mix in the context of the AB, and one's teammates.

Whether one should swing at a "semi-bad" pitch depends on how well you can hit bad pitches, how much your team really gains from a walk, and the exact game situation.

Chili Davis's career ISO D was .084, so it's not like he didn't have some sense of the strike zone.

another day, another kick dusty thread.

another day, another kick dusty thread.

it's so easy that of course that is what is going to happen when you have a guy who's well known to tell good players don't play as well as you can because we would rather have you strike out than actually walk, or heck we would like for you to hit into dozens of extra double plays because, I'm dusty baker, and outside of gambling rent, i'm probabably one of the stupidest people on the planet, who's been blessed with a job that at no point in time I've proven I'm capable of peforming, I mean in the real world guys like Dave Stewart, Jose Oquendo, Doug Glanville etc all could do a better job, but because I'm one of two minorities to make it past the old mans network, it means that, just like a vast group of white guys I'm now immune to actually being competent and keeping a job...

Wow.

Pretty big difference between the thought process that goes into hitting, and the thought process that goes into evaluating the end results.

What you can apply in the latter isn't necessarily what you can apply to the former.

Walks are good, but they aren't the result of trying to get a walk. They are the result of trying to get a good pitch to hit. Walks are the residue of good at bats.

HARDLY NEWS; THIS IS THE GUY WHO HAD DARRIN LEWIS WITH A 302 ON BASE AVERAGE BATTING LEADOFF IN 1993 AS THE BLEW A 12 GAME LEAD TO THE BRAVES. # 8 IS EXACTLY CORRECT.

Another day, another day for Rambling Gent to wear out his "insert head up Dusty's ass" macro key.

Rent, is Dusty really THAT good at giving head?

Walks are good, but they aren't the result of trying to get a walk. They are the result of trying to get a good pitch to hit. Walks are the residue of good at bats.

Exactly. I don't know why this is so hard to understand. Nobody is advocating for hitters to become Eddie Gaedel up there.

They are the result of trying to get a good pitch to hit. Walks are the residue of good at bats.

They can be. They can also be the result of a poor/passive approach to hitting that might serve a superior talent fine in the minors but could hamstring him in the majors. Dusty is of the opinion that Votto is taking to many pitches he should be trying to drive. Dusty may be correct, he may not be correct. None of you have any clue.

You guys are slowly turning me into a Reds fan this year.

I am a Reds fan and despite my initial instincts to loathe Dusty, I am waiting to make a judgement about his tenure here. He made my stomach turn in his previous posts, but if he gets this team to win, I'll keep my pajama wearing self quiet. I'm currently finding Wayne Krivsky more maddening for some of his roster decisions. Dusty may have lobbied for Patterson and Hairston, but Krivsky offered them contracts.(and Stanton, Castro, etc.)

I am a Reds fan and despite my initial instincts to loathe Dusty, I am waiting to make a judgement about his tenure here.

Hang tight with Dusty. He has his flaws, but he has his strengths, too. The trick is to see if the roster and personalities match well with what he does as a manager. He's not a guy like Davey Johnson or Tony LaRussa whom I would trust with any kind of roster, any time, anywhere, but there aren't many managers like that so I don't mean that as a criticism of Dusty. When he was hitting coach for the Giants, he used to talk about statistics and situational statsistics all the time when he was the interviewee for the pre-game show. He's savvier about stats than he lets on, and I'm not sure why he's gone away from expressing his knowledge of stats publically since he's become a manager.

Dusty may be correct, he may not be correct. None of you have any clue.

The whole point of a board like this is for people to express opinions, strongly. I'm not sure what the point is of you're constantly telling everybody they essentially aren't entitled to one. That all of us are interested enough in the game and MLB and the Reds and Dusty in particular is GOOD for baseball and the Reds and Dusty. So get over it.

They can be. They can also be the result of a poor/passive approach to hitting that might serve a superior talent fine in the minors but could hamstring him in the majors.

This is exactly correct, as was James in 1984. Case in point: Jeremy Hermida's second-half surge last year correlates almost exactly to the point at which he started taking fewer pitches. When I saw Hermida play in Carolina, as I've written on nuerous occasions, he took more bad swings than anyone I could ever remember seeing - and that was almost entirely a result of letting pitches go by early in the count while he was waiting for the perfect pitch, until he got into a position where he HAD to swing. He became more aggressive at the plate in the second half last year - and he started blasting the ball. I don't think that's any coincidence.

Learning the difference between a ball and a strike, and swinging only at the latter, is an important skill. But it is equally important - if not more important - for a hitter to attack balls that are hittable when he gets them. It sounds very much as though Baker is encouraging Votto not to pass up hittable pitches waiting for the perfect pitch, and I think that is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.

-- MWE

Dusty may be correct, he may not be correct. None of you have any clue.

Superficially, that's a fair point, if obnoxiously phrased, but there are a couple of facts you're leaving out. Last year Votto hit .321 in 84 ABs, with 5 BBs. Small sample, but it doesn't look like he was overly passive. On top of that, at the beginning of spring training Baker openly admitted that he had never seen alot of these young guys play before this spring. Baker has probably seen less Votto ABs than most Reds fans, almost certainly less than the Reds primates on this board. Dusty may be right in regards to Votto, but based on the evidence we have available, it doesn't look probable. I haven't really followed the Baker saga much because he's always been in the NL, but there's plenty of real evidence for Reds fans to be worried about what he's going to do with his young first baseman.

Learning the difference between a ball and a strike, and swinging only at the latter, is an important skill. But it is equally important - if not more important - for a hitter to attack balls that are hittable when he gets them. It sounds very much as though Baker is encouraging Votto not to pass up hittable pitches waiting for the perfect pitch, and I think that is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.

Yep. I wonder if being too passive ruined Ben Grieve's career?

What's the ideal mix of passivity and aggression? I know it probably depends on each individual player, but it's an interesting question. It seems the greatest hitters find that optimum zone of patience coupled with ruthless, bloodthirsty violence when the pitcher finally comes in with the pitch they want. I love watching those guys hit. Watching a guy like Vlad swing at pitches that should be physically impossible to hit has its entertainment, too.

I wonder if being too passive ruined Ben Grieve's career?

In my opinion, absolutely.

-- MWE

I wonder if being too passive ruined Ben Grieve's career?


In my opinion, absolutely.

-- MWE

It's interesting you say that, because at the time it seemed weird that the A's would look to move him. But, after his performance collapsed, I thought there must have been something in his game they just didn't like, despite his strong rookie performance, his low cost-controlled salary and that, superficially, he was a "Moneyball" kind of player. Anyway, I'm glad the A's managed to get Mark Ellis out of the deal.

My only complaint with Dusty is his decision to give Votto as few spring ab's as possible. I loved the signing of Hatteberg--he's a great on base guy, perfect at top of lineup, a guy I thought would spot start, be a fantastic pinch hitter, and insurance if Votto got hurt. I doubt the Reds would stick with him like the Pad's did Kouzmanoff last year. Impatient organization--Dunn hit the crap out of the ball when he got called up, Kearns the same. They almost buried Encarnacion in 06 with Clayton and last year with that demotion crap. Anyway, Hatteberg started all 3 games I attended last weekend. Votto DH'd (9th place hitter in Spring Trainings 1st few weeks) and was removed in 2 games and didnt appear in 1 at all. Excuse for that is probably he was scheduled to start the split squad nightgame that was rained out. It's horseshit. We know what Hatteberg can do. Let Votto get as many ab's as possible. Votto earned a promotion and had a great September last year. I can't figure it out. Different scenario, but that jackass Ray Knight refused to give Eric Davis time in Spring of '96--Davis drew walks and impressed in the few ab's he got. Forced that sucker punching prick to make room for him.

Besides that, I have more concerns about all the promising young pitchers under the watchful eye of Dick Pole. McBeth, Burton, Bailey, Volquez, Cueto--I don't think he can ruin any of them, but can he make them better? Can he solve Todd Coffey's 1st pitch woes? Would love to hear/read interviews with him abut his plans.

Pops--agree about Krivsky--at least Castro & Moeller won't be our top pinch hitters or negate the DH rule with starts in AL parks. I've just grown so used to management giving those Kings Island leashes for invisible dogs to already insane manager like Boone. The bullpen has been so laughable the last 4 years (take a look)and I'd rather the young guys take their lumps instead of trotting out Stantons and Cormiers. Cordero is a good start.

It seems like there are only two players who are always cited as being potentially great big-leaguers, except for their tendency to look for the walk too much.
- Rich Becker
- and now that his career is over, Ben Grieve

While I think Dusty gets a lot of perfectly reasonable bashing - I think that both the vindictiveness sent his way AND the claims of the levels of it are both greatly exaggerated.

I was probably one of the very last Cubs fans to depart the Dusty bandwagon - it was time for him to go and I'm glad he's gone - but he's far from the worst manager in baseball. I actually suspect that the Reds will be in contention this year, because Dusty seems to do exceptionally well during his 'honeymoon' (sample size and all)... What's maddending is that Baker can be such a double-edged sword.

To wit -

I always thought Dusty did a great job resting his starters and keeping gimpy vets as relatively healthy as possible. I thought this based on Ellis Burks in SF and Barry Bonds in SF -- and even in Chicago, he did a pretty good job keeping Moises Alou properly rested. Ditto the terminally gimpy Aramis Rameriz.

The flip side, though, and what I/many Cubs didn't notice until we saw the ugly "Neifi love" period - is that he seems to accomplish this by falling in love with banjo hitting utility players that have no business logging 2-300 at-bats.

While we can talk about Dusty's proclivity for veterans on the field - he's also shown a marked willingness to insert young pitchers into the rotation, into key bullpen roles, etc.

The flip side is that he seems to have no clue about the proper handling of young pitchers and looking towards their long-term health.

After "all bunts, all the time" Don Baylor -- I was likewise heartened by the fact that Dusty didn't seem to be a Bob Boone-esque "over-manager", who thinks he needs constant motion on the basepaths, hit-and-runs, bunts, etc.

The flipside is that he DOES seem to micro-manage the plate approach of young players. Give him a veteran who has a mature approach at the plate --- be it patient slugger, aggressive slap hitter, or whatever -- and he seems to be the perfect manager. However, give him a kid that's still in the early stages of finalizing a hitting approach, and I think he's poison.

Objectively - I think Dusty Baker really, truly IS one of the better managers in baseball. I mean - even with the way his Cubs term ended -- he's still the first Cubs manager since Leo Durocher to post back-to-back .500+ seasons.

It's just incredibly frustrating because Baker seems to constantly blunt the good things he provides a team with bad things.

Of course, being a classic Primate -- I think ALL managers are idiots, so if someone shoots par -- they're among the better managers in my book!

Dusty is of the opinion that Votto is taking to many pitches he should be trying to drive. Dusty may be correct, he may not be correct. None of you have any clue.

Well, Votto's career stats give us some clue, and they suggest that his approach works pretty well.

And Dusty's been "incorrect" on this score enough times to have lost any benefit of the doubt.

I remember that James quote well. Interesting thing is that the player in question, Davis, became a very patient hitter as his career progressed.

I understand that's the kind of thing that might take a player a long time to learn, and having somebody shout "take more walks" to a 24 year old could be counter productive.

Different scenario, but that jackass Ray Knight refused to give Eric Davis time in Spring of '96--Davis drew walks and impressed in the few ab's he got. Forced that sucker punching prick to make room for him.

Heh. Ray Knight. I was always torn as to whether he was worse at announcing/analzying or managing.

The question I wonder about Dusty re:Votto is not whether he should tell him to swing more often, but whether he gives him any chance at all to play. I'm guessing the Reds will continue to see plenty of Scott Hatteberg.

More fascinating than the Votto-Hatterberg question is probably going to be the Bruce-Patterson-Freel question.

Agreed with 29 and 30. Whatever strengths Baker may have as a manager, giving him numerous options for doling out playing time is generally a bad idea.

the Bruce-Patterson-Freel question.

Lest we forget Hopper. Dusty's been talking favorably about him.

Well, Votto's career stats give us some clue, and they suggest that his approach works pretty well.

Actually they don't because if you read all of what I wrote I said it may serve in the minors but not in the majors.

if obnoxiously phrased

Not nearly as obnoxious of the assumption made by a good percentage of primates, that they know more about hitting than Dusty Baker.

Hopper's ability to hit .300 and get on base by bunting and grounding 50 hoppers that find a hole is incredible. His 2 hits Friday were both routine ground balls that Wang and then Cano should've handled easily. A Bruce, Griffey, Dunn outfield with Freel spelling and Hopper as a 5th was the way I saw things coming in.

Not nearly as obnoxious of the assumption made by a good percentage of primates, that they know more about hitting than Dusty Baker.

I will bet you any amount of money you want, any physical object, hell, I'll even bet you a night with my girlfriend that I know more about dinosaurs than Dusty Baker will ever know or could hope to know.

It seems like there are only two players who are always cited as being potentially great big-leaguers, except for their tendency to look for the walk too much.
- Rich Becker
- and now that his career is over, Ben Grieve


Poor Ben Greive. If he had any defensive value and the ability to stay healthy, he'd probably still be on someone's bench somewhere and the poster boy for the "FREE XXXXX YYYYY" chants.

I still think Becker got a raw deal. He was a productive, if maddening, hitter and good enough defensively to deserve a bench job.

I'll even bet you a night with my girlfriend

What will I put up about against it? about a buck 80? HA HA HA. I crack me up. No offense intended.

What will I put up about against it? about a buck 80? HA HA HA. I crack me up. No offense intended.

None taken. I got up this morning, scratched my butt, said hello to my kitties, and stumbled half asleep to the bathroom where I found an invoice for $5,000. Goddam that Elliot Spitzer.

I still think Becker got a raw deal. He was a productive, if maddening, hitter and good enough defensively to deserve a bench job.

I think Becker was killed by injuries. His first year as a regular he played excellent defense, had a bunch of assists, and hit well with some pop. Just a few years later his defense was weak, and the only thing he could do well was work a walk.

Another thing y'all seem to be overlooking/forgetting: Votto was part of the great Dan O'Brien "keep you bat on your shoulder for the first pitch in A ball" experiment (which complimented his "2 pitchers who each go 4 innings" experiment). Votto himself has stated that it screwed him up, and being more agressive on the first pitch helped him last year.

Now, is he still laying off the first pitch too much? I can't say (I never made it past Little League myself).

Interesting, TDF. Eric Davis was saying so many batting coaches only focus/help/point #### out when players are going bad. Said this only complicates matters and can extend the slump giving the player even more head noise/mind #####. Said Reggie Smith was an anomaly in always keeping on hitters when they are going good.

I think having an idea each ab can go along way if player is aware of the sitaution in the game. Brandon PHillips, when he's going well, seems to have the ability to go deep in a count and try to line a ball the other way. Looks like he also will go up there looking to absolutely murder one pitch he likes when he's going well. When not, it's all wild hacks. When baserunners are needed, why not try to make a pitcher work and take some pitches? Easier said then done, sure...