What's also interesting to me is that only 2 of the top 30 are Latino (tho about 8 of the top 50 qualify-"about" because I am not sure about Santo). That percentage will likely shoot up over the next 2-3 decades (c.f. Pujols).

What I am suggesting here, of course, is that 43% of the outstanding position players during the Integrated Era were/are black. I am 73 years old and grew up in New York City and I have seen all the great players since 1946. But, even so, I find this to be a startling result. And it speaks volumes about the quality of the black ballplayers over that stretch of time.

It also speaks volumes about the relative quality of Major League Baseball (or the lack of it) in the pre-integration era, even if it can't quantify the effect with any fine precision.

Dave Winfield was so good he makes the list twice! (#35 and #45).

Why does Rod Carew qualify as "black" but Manny Ramirez and Roberto Clemente don't?

Rickey is a top 10 player? That surprises me.

Why does Rod Carew qualify as "black" but Manny Ramirez and Roberto Clemente don't?

Because Carew is also Jewish.

Does the article mention how few of the top pitchers have been black?

The question that raises is whether the black pitching talent was overlooked or were talented black baseball players all channeled into positions. Presumably either outcome was due to lingering racism but they lead to rather different conclusions about how much talent was added in the post-integration period. That is, without selection bias (literally) leading to so few black pitcher, would we have seen 20%, 40% top black pitchers and 40% top position players? Or would a sizeable chunk of those position players have come up as pitchers?

Why does Rod Carew qualify as "black" but Manny Ramirez and Roberto Clemente don't?

Why does this come up every single time we have an article posted on race in baseball? Do you really want to rehash the argument for the 100th time? Or do you think you're coming up with some new insight by noticing the color of Manny Ramirez's skin? Perhaps you don't realize that "black" is short for "Of African ancestry, but growing up in the United States, with all of the cultural and racial issues that entails".

Rickey is a top 10 player? That surprises me.

Take away the segregation-era players, and it would surprise me if he weren't. What does Dan R think?

erhaps you don't realize that "black" is short for "Of African ancestry, but growing up in the United States, with all of the cultural and racial issues that entails".

Carew was born in Panama and moved to the states at age 14
Manny was born in the DR and moved to the states at age 13

It's a legit question.

It's a national tragedy that the other 57% of great players decided not to be black.

Misirlou is going to cut you into little pieces Posted: October 26, 2008 at 02:25 PM (#2995600)

erhaps you don't realize that "black" is short for "Of African ancestry, but growing up in the United States, with all of the cultural and racial issues that entails".


Carew was born in Panama and moved to the states at age 14
Manny was born in the DR and moved to the states at age 13

It's a legit question.

- it certainly is. i mean comparing carew to latin players who look Negro (not, say, ismael valdez or mike lowell or bronson arroyo)

i would guess it is as simple as carew doesn't have a "latin" accent OR a proper "hispanic" name

I'm not entirely sure of this, but the reason Carew doesn't have a proper Hispanic name is because his father is an African-American (which of course makes him different from Manny Ramirez). Carew served in the Marine Corps Reserves for much of the 60s, and I don't think he could have gotten citizenship so quickly if he had not been eligible. Eligibility required a person born in the Canal Zone to have at least one American parent.

I mean who knows what Rod Carew regards himself as, but it's just stupid to think that Dominicans and African-Americans are the same.

Dave Winfield was so good he makes the list twice! (#35 and #45).

Sorry, #45 was supposed to be Lou Brock. It's been fixed.

OK seamhead. Why is Rod Carew an African American and Manny Ramirez not?

Also, Barry Bonds was active in 2007.

Do people just not read my posts?

I read your post.

I mean who knows what Rod Carew regards himself as, but it's just stupid to think that Dominicans and African-Americans are the same.

And my question is, what makes Rod Carew, born and raised in Panama until his early teens, then emigrating to Washington Heights an African-American and Manny Ramirez, born and raised in the DR until his early teens then emigrating to Washington heights, not?

I read your post.

And my question is, what makes Rod Carew, born and raised in Panama until his early teens, then emigrating to Washington Heights an African-American and Manny Ramirez, born and raised in the DR until his early teens then emigrating to Washington heights, not?

Probably the part about his dad being african-american which was in the post...

Probably the part about his dad being african-american which was in the post...

It's been pointed out time and again that it is not the color of the skin, but the experiences which matter. Well, Carew was essentially raised by his Panamanian mother in the slums of Gatun until he was 14. By all accounts, his father had very little to do with him. The fact that the father was an African American had very little, if any bearing on Rod's childhood experience. In that sense, he was very much like Manny Ramirez, except from a different Latin country.

1) he may not have realized Carew was Panamanian, may have forgotten Carew was Panamanian, may have thought Carew moved to the US at an earlier age, may have made an arbitrary decision based on Carew's parentage/citizenship, may have simply screwed up.

2) What does it matter? So it might be 40% African-Americans not 43% if you don't count Carew? Or it might be 55-60% if you count "black" Latin players? Does that actually change the point?

Why is Alex Rodriguez not an African-American?

Does that actually change the point?

I'm not sure what the point is.

It doesn't Walt, but that's what we do here. It does serve to point out the landmines when trying to pigeonhole people by "race", and hopefully undermine future efforts to promote more of "your favorite ethnic type here" people in baseball.

Perhaps you don't realize that "black" is short for "Of African ancestry, but growing up in the United States, with all of the cultural and racial issues that entails".

Yes; he's so foolish that he didn't realize the obvious truth that all black people who grow up in the United States have the same cultural and racial issues.

OK seamhead. Why is Rod Carew an African American and Manny Ramirez not?

Also, Barry Bonds was active in 2007.

The Bonds thing was my fault; I forgot to italicize Bonds while formatting the post, but that's been fixed. Thank you for pointing that out. As far as the Carew vs. Ramirez argument goes, I almost e-mailed Mike Hoban last night with the same question before I posted his article to the site, but I didn't. I figured he must have had a good reason for designating Carew as African-American, but not Ramirez. But it seems to be a hot topic here, so I'll ask him and get back to you with his answer.

Carew was classified as African-American because of his father.

"Cut the baby in half."
--King Solomon

One little twist to the study is that Musial and Spahn were born after Jackie, but they fall out of the study because they weren't barred by the color line.

Do people just not read my posts?

Didn't Flynn used to post here?

Why am I not an African-American? I might have made the list then.

Yes; he's so foolish that he didn't realize the obvious truth that all black people who grow up in the United States have the same cultural and racial issues.

Of course they don't, but if the author's point was on race, then black, as it's commonly understood, was his designation. Just like all white people, or hispanics in California, or whatever designation that you choose to use for anything is a broad category.

And I did not realize that Carew and Ramirez were specifically chosen by Booey for their special circumstances. I was more reacting to the usual comment of why someone like Sosa isn't considered black. So for that, I apologize. But I'll agree with Walt, though, that if it really is just Carew, then it doesn't much matter whether you include him or not.

I never really thought of Manny Ramirez as black. I don't really know, but I assume that he, like many islanders, is of mixed races. But I'm not sure if this makes me enlightened or a monster to look at things this way.