If, and this is a huge if, Church comes back healthy, I'd rather the Mets found a righthanded outfielder to provide balance to the lineup. That said, Ibanez would be a nice pickup and the type of player the Mets should be looking for as it shouldn't take a premium prospect to acquire him.

The ideal pick-up is Juan Rivera but the Angels seem to be more than willing to let him rot on the bench.

How will Ibanez contribute without Jose Vidro protecting him...

What are the odds that Church can come back? Seriously.

What are the odds that Church can come back? Seriously.

Even if we knew all the info, there's no real way of being sure. In addition, I am sure the Mets are spinning whatever news they get about Church in the best light as not to appear desperate in trade talks.

The ideal pick-up is Juan Rivera but the Angels seem to be more than willing to let him rot on the bench.

Rivera's been in the lineup the last few days. I'm hoping it means a long overdue benching of Gary Matthews. DHing would be nice though, Rivera has been brutal in the field.

Back in 2006 I wanted to see Johnny Rivers in left everyday with GA on the bench, range seemed about equal but Rivera has a much better arm. I'm not sure if it's lost range from his leg injury or rust from sitting on the bench all year but screw small sample sizes - Rivera has misplayed more balls in the last week than Anderson has all year.

Ibanez is a decent hitter, and is cheap, his total contract is 5.5 million so the Mets would only pay about 2-2.5. They would have to give up a prospect though, and Ibanez is not a good fielder.

I wonder if there are any other bad fielding LF out there who can hit at least as well as Raul and would sign for less money.

I didn't chime in on the original Church thread but based on personal experience at both suffering concussions as well as observing if you are experiencing issues 2 days later it is going to be a long time before you feel right.

As a reminder, been farming for over 50 years. Rough occupation.

It's either bang your noggin and you are fine the next day or you keep trying to do stuff and getting dizzy or sick or disoriented.

Church is out for a while is my country doc diagnosis. Probably September.

Ibanez is a real butcher out there in LF though. The last UZR update I can find has him at -20 for a season. Obviously this all depends on how much you think Chavez can hit, but I'm not sure [Ibanez Offense - Defense] > [Chavez Defense - Offense]

Chavez is 40 runs better (maybe more) than Ibanez with the glove. I don't know how much better Inbanez is of a hitter, but I suspect less than 40 runs.

Obviously this all depends on how much you think Chavez can hit, but I'm not sure Ibanez Offense - Defense > Chavez Defense - Offense

Well, but if the Mets are going to be without Alou and Church in the long term, then the question isn't Ibanez v. Chavez. It's Ibanez v. either Tatis or Pagan. And that seems to me to be a no-brainer, at least before you take into account what you have to give up to get Ibanez.

Probably September.

Harv, I think very few concussions are just like any other concussion. There's really no way to gauge when the headaches, dizziness, and nausea are going to stop. September is just as likely as August, and just as likely as Corey Koskie or Mike Matheny.

at least before you take into account what you have to give up to get Ibanez.

I can't believe you'd remotely accept this after your general stance about adding older players to teh roster.

Did Kenny Lofton die? Is he not being signed because signing him would remind people again that Bonds was unsigned? I'd much rather have him than Ibanez and his terrible glove.

I can't believe you'd remotely accept this after your general stance about adding older players to teh roster.

If Ibanez ends up bringing the Tatis Era to a close, that is a pretty marginal difference in terms of making the Mets' roster older (Ibanez is 36, Tatis 33). If we can get him for a bag of balls, then why would I oppose that? I certainly wouldn't give up anything resembling an actual prospect for him.

If we can get him for a bag of balls, then why would I oppose that?

Because if he plays reasonably well, he'll get re-signed. It definitely goes against your grain. Why wouldn't you want Bonds?

Why wouldn't you want Bonds?

Because he isn't coming. He's not. He's not. He's not.

You're right. They should sign him. But they won't. Posting about why wouldn't someone prefer Bonds to Ibanez for the 2008 Mets is just as relevant a question for why they wouldn't prefer 1923 Babe Ruth to Ibanez. It's simply not a realistic possibility.

Go for Ibanez.

Because if he plays reasonably well, he'll get re-signed. It definitely goes against your grain. Why wouldn't you want Bonds?

Well, I certainly wouldn't want him re-signed. I'd want him (if at all) because we could get him for basically nothing for the rest of the year to fill a hole created by the bad decision to re-sign Alou and the bad luck of Church's concussions. If there is an undue risk that any success Ibanez might enjoy would result in his being re-upped, then I'd say no thanks. My hope is that the Mets would not do that; that they'd thank Ibanez for his solid contribution and say, "Adios," and maybe even collect a draft pick for their troubles. My expectation, sadly, is that you are probably right.

My expectation, sadly, is that you are probably right.

Right - I fully expected you to be against this move because the risk outweighs the reward. We are going to need some bat help if Church and Alou are out for the season. But maybe we get some timely hits from Tatis. I have said in the past that I can live with Endy in the OF (as opposed to adding some other clown).

Because if he plays reasonably well, he'll get re-signed.

I doubt the Mets will lock themselves into anything more than a one year deal for a leftfielder this offseason because Omar loves Fernando and I expect that he'll be the Met leftfielder by 2010 at the latest. Omar has shown that he is willing to push the prospects he likes through the system and challenge them at the major league level. Look at Pelfrey and Smith. And Omar doesn't like Fernando, he loves him.

If I had to bet money, I say the Mets sign Juan Rivera to a one-year deal next offseason so that he can re-establish himself as an everyday player but leftfield is reserved for Fernando. There's little doubt in my mind that Omar's plan.

Omar has shown that he is willing to push the prospects he likes through the system and challenge them at the major league level. Look at Pelfrey and Smith.

Yeah. Those are the ONLY two.

The Mets have a 2009 problem, really. IMHO, Fernando Martinez won't be ready, so they'll have a hole. But if they fill that hole with a guy who isn't good enough to warrant a multi-year deal elsewhere, then he's probably not going to be a very good player -- so they're sacrificing some quality for 2009 for the sake of not blocking F-Mart. And if they fill it with a quality FA on a multi-year deal, or trade for someone who has years on a deal or years to go before free agency, then they might be blocking Martinez.

Filling that OF hole for 2009 is going to be an interesting challenge for Minaya. He'll need to be creative and probably a bit lucky to find a guy who gives him a flukey kind of year.

Yeah. Those are the ONLY two.

The only other two really good prospects the Mets have had during that time are Lastings Milledge and Carlos Gomez. Considering their performance this season, it appears that Omar Minaya was right not to give them more playing time as they are obviously not ready now, and weren't ready while they were Mets.

It appears that Sam is never going to forgive Minaya for the Mets not playing Milledge more last September, and trading him this offseason.

Filling that OF hole for 2009 is going to be an interesting challenge for Minaya. He'll need to be creative and probably a bit lucky to find a guy who gives him a flukey kind of year.

Juan Rivera is perfect for them.

The only other two really good prospects the Mets have had during that time are Lastings Milledge and Carlos Gomez.

Phil Humber's also having a bad 2008, but last year it certainly looked like he could have seen time over Brian Lawrence or Jorge Sosa.

It appears that Sam is never going to forgive Minaya for the Mets not playing Milledge more last September, and trading him this offseason.

No, I'm not going to let him off the hook for doing such a terrible job of cultivating talent in the system that you can actually say, "The only other two really good prospects the Mets have had during that time are Lastings Milledge and Carlos Gomez." He and the team he has assembled of scouts and talent evaluators and minor league instructors have simply failed to build a robust organization. Trading away what little talent he has assembled has been the least of Minaya's problems -- although it has been one of them.

Filling that OF hole for 2009 is going to be an interesting challenge for Minaya. He'll need to be creative and probably a bit lucky to find a guy who gives him a flukey kind of year.

I'd sign Bonds for as long as he can play/hit.

No, I'm not going to let him off the hook for doing such a terrible job of cultivating talent in the system that you can actually say, "The only other two really good prospects the Mets have had during that time are Lastings Milledge and Carlos Gomez."

That's unfair to Minaya who has only been GM for less than four years now and actually has done a pretty respectable job building the system all things considered. I was just looking over the Mets' recent drafts and they've actually done alright.

In 2005, Minaya only had one pick in the first one hundred and he picked Pelfrey which is looking like a good pick right now. He also picked Jon Niese in the seventh round (a pretty good pitching prospect), Josh Thole in the 13th round (.800 OPS in the FSL as a 21 year old catcher), and Robby Parnell (a decent pitching prospect who may have a career in the big leagues as a reliever) in the ninth round. He also signed Fernando and Deolis Guerra that year. That's a good draft.

In 2006, he picked Joe Smith and Kevin Mulvey with the only two picks in the first 100. Again, that's a more than respectable draft right there. Dan Murphy is also having a solid season in AA especially if he proves capable of playing 2nd. He was a 13th round pick.

His 2007 draft wasn't loved around here but Kunz is doing well in AA, Moviel is progressing nicely in A- ball as a 20 year old, and late round picks like Gee, Antonini, Owen are putting up nice numbers.

He has also signed guys like Wilmer Flores, Ruben Tejada, Jefry Marte, and Francisco Pena, guys who may or may not pan out but are in the low minors.

I think you are overly negative on Minaya. At the very least, you need to give him some time to let the young players he has drafted or signed develop. I think it takes 5 years before you can know whether a GM can build a farm system or not and you aren't giving him enough time.

Has there ever been a guy as talented as Bonds free available for nothing, no prospects, almost free (league minimum for the rest of the year is only $200k)? Even Lofton isn't playing for the minimum.

Is Bonds available for the league minimum, and willing to play for any team in baseball that wants him? If so, how do you know this?

s Bonds available for the league minimum, and willing to play for any team in baseball that wants him? If so, how do you know this?

His agent said so.

The outfielder, who turns 44 on July 24, has been offered by Borris to all 30 teams for a prorated share of the $390,000 minimum.

Borris said Bonds even would play for free -- offering to donate whatever salary he receives to purchase tickets for children.

"The fact that no team in Major League Baseball has made an offer for Barry even at the minimum salary has created a level of suspicion that is currently being investigated," Borris said.

Aha, you have fallen into my trap! My point was that there is no reason to believe that what an agent says is true. This is also true of GMs. I assume they are using the media as a negotiation tool.

My point was that there is no reason to believe that what an agent says is true.

I think until Bonds is given the minimum offer and it is declined, I think it is appropriate to believe it to be true.

Can you offer an example of where Bonds turned down ANY MLB contract?

No, I have no evidence of what Bonds has been doing. Only his confidantes know that sort of thing.

I can easily imagine that the Mets or somebody offered Bonds a contract under strict conditions of silence if it didn't go through, since they certainly don't want to be known that they were seeking Bonds if they don't end up getting him to play there anyway. They would be very careful about that. And then that they may have been told that he didn't really feel like learning a new set of signals and being on the East Coast and being away from his family unless he got at least half as much as Moises Alou is making, and then it fell through.

How do we know?

I remain convinced by the "GMs are skittish" argument, especially since there's only one team every year that ends up winning the World Series (which would justify signing any controversial player, of course), and GMs realize that a lot of that has to do with health and luck anyway.

If the reports of Rivera being a butcher in the OF is true, then I don't want him anywhere except on the Mets' bench.

One guy I would give a tryout would be Austin Kearns, who is practically worthless to the Nats right now.

Ibanez is fine as long as the expectations are aligned with the acquistion costs. Ibanez will be a decent bat and a poor fielder, the Mets could use some certainty in their OF right now. I *do not* want Ibanez as a starter on the Mets for 2009.

I don't understand why everyone is so fascinated with these veteran retread options. I do not want Lofton on this team. I'd like to see what Nick Evans can do, and he and Carp should be seriously considered next year if not later this year.

And if they fill it with a quality FA on a multi-year deal, or trade for someone who has years on a deal or years to go before free agency, then they might be blocking Martinez.

I tend to doubt this will really be an issue. First, the 2009 Mets might well have holes in both corners as there's no guarantee that Church will ever come back or come back at that level. Second, if Church is OK, that's still not necessarily a reason for the Mets to avoid a long-term contract this offseason -- Church is a great 4th OF (and that's what he's been most of his career) and/or a player it would be easy to trade. Third, the Mets have a hole at 1B for 2009 and might sign a 1-year stopgap there and either the mystery new corner OF or Church could possibly move to first. The Mets can sign a long-term corner OF without blocking FMart.

Now all the usual caveats apply about signing any veteran corner OF to a long-term contract. And I don't know who's available but probably not many guys who'd make a difference. (More likely is, say, signing Teixeira for 1B.) But blocking FMart is pretty low on the list of issues here.

Fair enough, Walt. The problem - as you note - is that there aren't that many options that will be available. Everyone who figures to be cheap to acquire have their set of flaws to deal with. Maybe Bradley. Otherwise, I'd rather the Mets be patient and try to develop a solution with within, and hope that Church will be okay.

Will the Mets go for Mike Sweeney in order to complete the reunion of the 2003 Kansas City Royals?

The radio guys are saying that Church's headaches are completely unrelated to his concussions and that he'll be back soon. I don't know how reliable that is.

I'd like to see what Nick Evans can do, and he and Carp should be seriously considered next year if not later this year.

Where is Carp going to play this year? Reports are he can't play the OF. He hits from the same side of the plate as Delgado, so no platoon. Maybe next year when Delgado is gone, but he has no role this year. (pinch hitter?)

I remain unconvinced Evans can hit righties well enough to be anything other than a platoon OF this year.

Only his confidantes know that sort of thing.

One of whom is his agent whose statement you have handwaved away.

I can easily imagine that the Mets or somebody offered Bonds a contract under strict conditions of silence if it didn't go through, since they certainly don't want to be known that they were seeking Bonds if they don't end up getting him to play there anyway. They would be very careful about that. And then that they may have been told that he didn't really feel like learning a new set of signals and being on the East Coast and being away from his family unless he got at least half as much as Moises Alou is making, and then it fell through.

That doesn't make any sense to me. Learning new signals? Why would Bonds say he'll play anywhere for any price if what you suggest took place? For sympathy? That doesn't make any sense.

I remain convinced by the "GMs are skittish" argument, especially since there's only one team every year that ends up winning the World Series (which would justify signing any controversial player, of course), and GMs realize that a lot of that has to do with health and luck anyway.

Except managers and GMs get fired all the time for simply not winning. 29 GMs don't get fired every year. The ones who don't meet expectations do. If the Mets don't win the division, there's a VERY good chance Minaya gets fired. Willie did.

Carp has slugged .389 in AA since April. He is hardly a can't miss prospect.

You people have no idea how bad a fielder Raul Ibanez is. The good folks at Lookout Landing do, however, and they have assembled a hilarious series of .GIFs (under the rubric "Raul Ibanez Is Good At Defense") that capture his defensive incompetence taken exclusively from this season's highlights. That is, the images linked below come ONLY from the first three months of 2008, and don't even factor in any of his hilarious butchery from last year. Enjoy, because these are HILARIOUS. You will literally laugh out loud at some of them ("Lawn Dart" being my favorite):

Bad Angle
Bobble
Bobble, Take Two
Dive
Dropped
Dropped, Take Two
Lawn Dart
Off The Glove
It's A Trap!

That said, Raul is an underrated hitter and extremely good citizen/popular guy. And Billy Wagner will like him, because while he may be Latino, English is his first language.

Bobble Take Two is very funny.

Those are hysterical, Esoteric. I believe all but one were home games, too, so Raul didn't have the excuse of being on unfamiliar ground.

I love Ichiro's reaction in "Bobble, Take Two".

Edit: Oops, Dan's right. Lots of these are from the road - Detroit, Toronto, two from Fenway, one from Yankee Stadium. I watch video clips like Raul catches flies...

2 of them were in Fenway, and Lawn Dart looked like Yankee Stadium.

2 of them were in Fenway, and Lawn Dart looked like Yankee Stadium.

Egads

Endy might kill him for sullying his outfield with that tap dance of incompetence.

I was reading this thread and getting ready to defend Raul. I knew he was range-limited, but I felt he was fine on the balls he got to.

Then I started watching Esoteric's Lookout Landing links. It's obvious that I haven't been watching enough Mariners games, or perhaps I only remember his shockingly good plays instead of the routine fumbles.

You really end up feeling sorry for Raul. I'm sure he knows what a butcher he is in LF, but the team refuses to DH him because they don't have any better options in the OF (given Balentien's inability to hit major league pitching and his similar antics with the glove). And he's SUCH a nice guy, an incredibly hard worker, and a very serviceable bat to boot. What these GIFs fail to show, additionally (or only show by implication) is his utter lack of range. He is the living embodiment of the baseball concept of "statue" out there.

As a Lookout Landing denizen, I think I can confidently say that our favorite (out of all the links given) is the "Bad Angle" one. There's just something so poignantly hilarious about the way Raul hits the wall as the ball dribbles on by.

I don't understand why they don't play him at first base. He has experience playing there, even in his 20s it was where he belonged, and the alternatives are Miguel Cairo and José Vidro.

I don't understand a lot about the decisions the Mariners' front office has made this year. Cutting Sexson (who was hitting quite well, albeit without power, in the past 20 games) whilst retaining Vidro and plugging both him and Cairo in at 1B? Letting Norton go for nothing? Moving Ichiro back to RF, where his value is significantly diminished? Sending Dickey back down to AAA early in the season when he's been invaluable as a swingman and spot-starter? I could go on for hours about lineup selection, too. Ugh. Sometimes it's hard to love this team.

Seems like a slightly worse Shawn Green. Do it!

The Mets have picked up 7 games on the Phillies in exactly one month and are only a half-game back. They could be in first at the ASB.

If Ibanez is really that bad a fielder (and the reports from Mariners Primates have not been pretty), then I think Omar should pass. The Shawn Green experience nearly drove me psychotic.

You really end up feeling sorry for Raul. I'm sure he knows what a butcher he is in LF, but the team refuses to DH him because they don't have any better options in the OF

I don't feel sorry for him: he wants to play in LF and he wants to play full time.

However, I won't blame him for it. It's the Mariners fault that they let a veteran face of the organization play where and when he wants without recognizing how poorly he plays in the field or against LHP, but I don't feel sorry for him.

Mets fans, your team will have to offer a Kazmirian haul to acquire Raul this year. As other posters have noted above, he is the face of the Mariners franchise, and is (legitimately) an athlete of great personal charisma.

The team has not made one murmur of trying to unload Raul. In my view, the M's leadership is looking ahead to marketing 2009, and is profoundly uneasy with trying to sell a team without a likeable English-speaking veteran a la Griffey, Buhner, Edgar Martinez (what a charming accent!), Dan Wilson, Raul, and Sexson (pre-2008). That presence is a cornerstone of their marketing plan. If they unload Ibañez for nothing, they'll have nothing to attract the casual ticketbuyer in 2009 -- not to mention the last two months of 2008.

To that end, they are hoping Raul will decide to come back in '09, and are trying to accommodate his wishes by playing him in LF and letting the defense fail where it may. (Tiboreau is right - he wants to play there and wants to do his best.)

As far as Beltran's quote, it reminds me of the Bill James "Dave Parker comment" in one of his Baseball Books. At the end of Parker's career, when he was old and fat, he signed a 1-year contract with the Milwaukee Brewers as their everyday DH. At the end of 1990, he had 21 HR and 92 RBI, the club lost 88 games, and the Brewers congratulated themselves on a successful free-agent signing. James lambasted them for this obvious failure in judgment.

Raul's offensive stats should not impress you in and of themselves, because he plays everyday and always bats 3rd or 4th. In modern baseball, only a Vidro-like incompetence will prevent you from accumulating 20 HRs and 100 RBIs in that situation. If he goes to the Mets and bats 6th or 7th a la Church, he will probably resemble a poor-fielding Ryan Church.

You've just described Shawn Green.

I don't feel sorry for him: he wants to play in LF and he wants to play full time.

There is some disagreement about that.

I don't understand a lot about the decisions the Mariners' front office has made this year.

There is lots of agreement with that.

Vidro showed me some very interesting pictures.
Well, not really. But it's kind of Bizarro-management to bat him fourth.

The Mets haven't held on to good-hit-no-field types the last few years (see Gotay, Ruben)
so I don't see Mr. Ibanez as a probable addition.

The last game I saw Bonds play, it wasn't that he was unpopular, it was that the crowd sounded very ugly. I was booing, too, for a while, but the atmosphere (at RFK) was more unpleasant than almost any other time I've been at a park. It was like a beanball war crowd without the beanballs. Perhaps the GM's are trying to avoid this - it is the entertainment industry.

No to Ibanez. That is some awful defense.

Mets fans, your team will have to offer a Kazmirian haul to acquire Raul

You want Victor Zambrano?

Now I've seen plenty of OF pull a "lawn dart" now and again. And of course if folks had thrown real lawn darts like that, they'd still be around. It was throwing them high in the air and impaling little children through the head (which happened 1000s of times!!!!) that was the issue.

The "dive" kinda reminds me of a classic in an intramural softball playoff game -- which we always choked in. Dominate the regular season, get creamed in the first round of the playoffs (I think we scored like 10 runs over 3 years!!). Anyway, top of the first, they've loaded the bases with nobody out. Guy smacks one to deep left. Our LF gets a great jump on the ball. Unfortunately, he got a great break coming in on the ball. The funny thing wasn't that (could happen to anyone) but he kept coming and didn't realize what he'd done until the ball was 25 feet directly over his head. (No fences on these fields so the balls just kept rolling)

36-year old, hollow body Ibanez for sale. (pickup and fret included)

Heh. I've got a hollow-body Ibanez. Nice axe.

The Mets don't need Ibanez. At this rate they're only going to need one run per game.

Sorry Mets fans, no Juan Rivera for you. However, can we interest you in a nice Gary Matthews Jr? He has a sun-roof, bucket seats, CB, and optional rally fun-pack, included. We'll even pick up 2 mil per year for the next 3 years, as well as the remainder of this year's salary.

Boy, you guys sure look good in that one. Take him for a drive, and if you don't like him, don't even bother bringing him back to the lot.