*yaaaaaaaaaaawn*

I'm hoping Rickey goes first, so I can have my cake and eat it too, enjoying the dual pleasures of listening live to Rickey's speech AND getting forcibly removed from the premises for heckling Rice during his. If Rice goes first I'm going to have a tough decision to make.

No, Dan, the problem is that you think Rice's stats *are* worthy. The value of a player is not wrapped up in the number of hits, home runs, and RBI only. Instead, it is about how many runs a player created at the plate and on the base paths and prevented in the field. Rice was a mediocre fielder and runner at best. Therefore, his entire case rests on his hitting stats (which benefited tremendously by playing half of his games at Fenway Park), and he simply made too many outs (including being one of the all-time leaders in GIDP) for him to be taken seriously as a Hall of Fame candidate unless, of course, you also want to open the floodgates for Dave Parker, George Foster, and several other "feared" hitters.

Maybe Rice could have the first third of his speech done excellently for him by Wade Boggs. And then Dwight Evans could follow and do his job terrifically as well. And then Rice could do a bit better than average job with his part and get all the credit. Kind of like the early 80's.

Most feared? Yeah, by Sox fans. His at bats with men on base against good pitchers were often excruciating. He was a very good player but he loved low outside sliders like Keith Richard love(s)(d) smack.

we have members of Bill James Youth

Right, because Bill James has such a young following. I may have been youthful when I started reading James back in the early 80's! Now? Not so much. Would you look at those damn kids playing on my lawn again.

Would you look at those damn kids playing on my lawn again.

They are not on your lawn as the article says that we have never left our house (variant on in our Mom's basement.)

members of Bill James Youth

Durchlauf.

Looks like CHB is getting a little (more) insecure

What's the official rationalization from the Rice-was-most-feared crowd about his low number of intentional walks?

"Rice was a one-dimensional, no-speed, no-defense left fielder ..."

Dan Shaughnessy, 2002.

That must have been before he knew the statheads didn't think much of Rice.

That must have been before he knew the statheads didn't think much of Rice.

Well, that seems to have solidified his position. During the first dozen years of his candidacy, his chief reason for penciling in him was because CHB disliked Rice so much he didn't want to be accused of withholding a vote for a borderline player based on personal issues.

What's the official rationalization from the Rice-was-most-feared crowd about his low number of intentional walks?

Pitchers were afraid to intentionally walk him for fear he'd kill them with a glower.

If Rice didn't develop eye problems in '87 and '88, he'd have had 4 or 5 more solid years, surpassing Kaline's numbers. At around age 34-35, his numbers tanked. He actually wore glasses to the plate near the end.

What's the official rationalization from the Rice-was-most-feared crowd about his low number of intentional walks?

I don't really think it's that incompatible. Pitchers likely feared the damage an at-his-peak Rice could do if he got a good swing on the ball, moreso than what Carew or Brett or any other hitter in the AL at the time could do with a similar mistake. That's what the "fear" likely refers to. But they also recognized that if they made the right pitches (the damn slider low and away, the one thing standing in the way of a genuine HOF career), it was easier to get him out.

Pitchers were afraid to intentionally walk him for fear he'd kill them with a glower.

Burns: Their flower power is no match for my glower power!

Wiggum: Well, that's some nice glowering, Mr. B.

Ah, Shaughnessy's annual Jim Rice for the HOF article. Gives me an excuse to again post this ripjob:

Copyright Boston Globe Newspaper Jul 22, 1988


ON BASEBALL / DAN SHAUGHNESSY

Red Sox management, like the ballclub, is on a roll. They had the wisdom to gas John McNamara while there was still time to salvage the season. They had the wisdom to scrap the search for another manager when Joe Morgan ripped off six straight. Yesterday they had the wisdom to suspend Jim Rice for three days after the team captain was involved in a dugout runway shoving and shouting match with Morgan.

Why stop now? Why not bite the bullet and send Big Jim Ed packing? Thanks for 12 years of great numbers. Now take a hike, buddy.

How is Rice going to help this team this year or next? At the not-so-old age of 35, he appears to be nothing more than a .272 singles hitter who has no speed and can't help you on defense. That might be OK if he weren't a clubhouse cancer who over the years has given little indication that he cares for anyone but himself.

Rice was at his personal worst Wednesday night. According to teammates, he pulled Morgan into the runway and got into a scuffle after Spike Owen was sent up to pinch hit for him in the eighth inning.

Rice should not have been embarrassed to have Owen bat for him. The Spiker has more homers (5-4) and a higher slugging percentage (.391-.333) than Jim Ed. Where's the slight? In 1988, Spike Owen has displayed more power than Jim Rice.

Meanwhile, the situation called for a bunt, and Rice's last successful sacrifice was during the Carter administration (1980).

The best things we can remember about Rice are that he put up Hall of Fame numbers (the only player in history with 35 homers and 200 hits for three straight years) for 12 seasons, that he worked hard and that he always wanted to play. Rice played hurt when others wouldn't.

But he is not going gracefully into that good night, and he's more alone than he ever was.

Teammates have been generous. Even last night, it was hard to find any who'd rip Rice while he is still their teammate. But they'll remember Wednesday's selfish outburst.

They'll also remember Rice striking out for the second out in the ninth inning of Game 5 of the 1986 American League Championship Series, then going into the clubhouse and taking his shirt off as Don Baylor and Dave Henderson rescued the Sox with two-run homers.

They'll remember Rice talking in a national sports magazine and saying this about his teammates: "They're not friends, they're associates."

They'll remember Rice's conditioned respond to intramural rips. Rice would give the "2.4 signal." That's 2.4 as in $2.4 million, his approximate salary.

They'll remember Rice unable to play on the West Coast May 25 this season, then getting up at 6 the next morning to play 36 holes of golf at Pebble Beach with teammates Bruce Hurst and Roger Clemens.

They'll remember John McNamara always being afraid to treat Rice like a normal player. Mac always had to sit down and have a talk with Rice about taking him out of left field, benching him, etc.

Morgan chose to treat Rice like what he is -- one of 24 players. Rice reacted with the aplomb and dignity of a 4-year-old child who'd been denied a second bowl of ice cream.

Typically, Rice tried to get physical with somebody who's not his match. Why isn't someone the size of Lee Smith or Larry Parrish ever on the other side of Rice's ire?

One remembers other incidents over the years. Rice ripped skin off the hand of a Sox PR man who was in his early 60s. Rice went into the Yankee Stadium stands to get a fan who took his cap in 1986. He's threatened more than one scrawny sportswriter over the years, and in '87 he ripped the shirt off a 155-pound welterweight from the Hartford Courant. On Wednesday, he tried to go at it with a 57-year-old man -- a former hockey player who was more than willing to fight back.

Now Rice wants to appeal the suspension through the Players Association. That ought to further endear him to the fandom.

What is the upside of keeping Rice? The only reason to keep him now is that he's got a year and a half left on a contract that calls for a whopping $2,280,000 this year and more next year. The Sox can't trade him without his permission, and they have to pay him no matter what.

One would guess that the club fears dumping Rice, then having a rival pick him up for the minimum salary ($62,500). Imagine paying Jim Ed 2 1/2 mil, then having him beat you with singles while getting paid $62,500 by the Milwaukee Brewers.

Everybody knows that Rice-as-captain is the biggest joke this side of Foxborough. Do you think the captain knows John Trautwein's name? Do you think the captain would be at home plate when Todd Benzinger hits a game-winner? Earlier in the summer, when the captain was benched, he was spending entire games in the clubhouse. There's leadership.

If the Sox can't release Rice, they should at least try trading him. Offer to pick up most of the salary and see if there are any takers. Rice told network TV people that he would be agreeable to a trade if the Sox don't plan to use him. He'd probably be happier elsewhere at this point.

Dream on. This typist knows Rice won't be released or traded. After all, how many great things can happen in a period of 10 days? That doesn't change the fact that the Red Sox would be better off without Rice and that Rice would be better off without the Red Sox.

There's a positive, upbeat feeling in the Sox clubhouse and in the Fenway Park stands. But the ugliness will come roaring back when Rice returns to his dark corner Sunday. Too bad. For everybody.

I'm not sure what I like worse:
-his 8 of 13 full seasons of 100+ rbis;
-his 7 of 13 yrs of 25+ hr's;
-his 7 of 13 yrs of hitting .300 or better;
-his 9 of 13 yrs of OBP of .350 or better;
-his 22 hr's and 66 rbi's in 280 AB's in Yankee Stadium;
-his 36 Hr's, .387 career OBP and .582 career SLG vs the Yankees;
-his 38 Hr's, .377 career OBP and .563 career SLG vs the Orioles;
-his .455 OBP vs the Mets in '86;
-his loss of his Age-27 season to the strike;
-his Vern Ruhle broken hand causing him to miss the playoffs/WS;

I mean, at a certain point, c'mon, gimme a freakin break. Singleton? Roy White? Staub? Who else has been mentioned? Rick Manning? John Milner? Daryl Hall? John Oates?

Again, if his eyes didn't go bad at age 34, he'd be Kaline's and/or Ripken's wet dream.

Again, if his eyes didn't go bad at age 34, he'd be Kaline's and/or Ripken's wet dream.

Well see, here's the thing. His eyes did go bad at age 34.

Also, regardless, no. Kaline and Ripken were both much better than Rice without even factoring in career length.

And, FWIW, Rice lost 1/3 of his age 28 season to the strike, according to baseball reference. He was ringing up stats at a 116 OPS+ pace, not exactly a most feared guy in the league pace.

And a stroll through his stats in various clutch situations, as listed by baseball-reference.com, won't encourage you to support his hall case.

Again, if his eyes didn't go bad at age 34, he'd be Kaline's and/or Ripken's wet dream.

Well see, here's the thing. His eyes did go bad at age 34.

Also, regardless, no. Kaline and Ripken were both much better than Rice without even factoring in career length.

Never mind that Ripken was a good SS and Rice a decent at best LF.

I mean, at a certain point, c'mon, gimme a freakin break. Singleton? Roy White? Staub?

Win Shares:

Rice 282
Singleton 302
White 263
Staub 358

WARP1:

Rice 73.0
Singleton 87.4
White 91.2
Staub 104.1

But c'mon, what are their respective "Fear Factors"?

Wait -- Shaughnessy cited SLG in that 1988 piece?

Shaughnessy's a total hypocrite on the issue of stats. I've seen interviews with him where he gleefully recounts covering the Orioles and Earl Weaver having a 3 by 5 card run over to him that said this or that guy was the one to pinch hit against a certain pitcher and the guy hitting a bomb. And Shaughnessy thought it was wonderful and so indicative of what a sharp guy Earl Weaver was that he would use all the information at his disposal.

Maybe if Bill James had had his Abstracts printed on a series of 3 by 5 cards, Shaughnessy would've loved them.

Wait -- Shaughnessy cited SLG in that 1988 piece?

Incredible...how did he know Rob Neyer would invent it 10 years later?

The first game I ever attended at Fenway Park was this one. Rice's rally-snuffing GIDPs in both the first inning and the ninth served as dispiriting bookends. The Fenway crowd seemed, well, less than enamored with their erstwhile fear-inducing # 3 hitter.

We should just copy and past all the arguments from last year.

What I'd like to see is how often the most feared hitter of his generation was pitched to after the guy in front of him was intentionally walked.

Even better - in those situations how often did Jim Ed oblige with a GIDP?

Rice as the equal of Ken Singleton

That's ridiculous. Singleton was better.

Steve - re #21: could you throw Rocky Colavito into that mix?

We haven't elected any of that group to the Hall of Merit; Singleton and Staub get the most support of them.

We should just copy and past all the arguments from last year.

Here, I'll start.

Games Played
Hall of Famer Jim Rice: 2089
Mystery Player: 1689

Position Breakdown
Hall of Famer Jim Rice: Outfield 74.4%, DH 25.6%
Mystery Player: Outfield 78.0%, DH 22.0%

General defensive skill
Hall of Famer Jim Rice: Average-ish
Mystery Player: Below average-ish

Career Home Runs/RBI
Hall of Famer Jim Rice: 382/1451
Mystery Player: 434/1404

Career AVG/OBP/SLG
Hall of Famer Jim Rice: .298/.352/.502
Mystery Player: .289/.343/.561

Hitting Stats Heavily Inflated By Home Park?
Hall of Famer Jim Rice: Yes
Mystery Player: Yes

Career OPS+
Hall of Famer Jim Rice: 128
Mystery Player: 132

Five Best Seasons by OPS+
Hall of Famer Jim Rice: 157, 154, 147, 141, 136
Mystery Player: 169, 149, 148, 145, 133

Career WARP3
Hall of Famer Jim Rice: 83.2
Mystery Player: 78.2

Five Best Seasons by WARP3
Hall of Famer Jim Rice: 9.8, 9.8, 8.5, 7.4, 7.2
Mystery Player: 11.4, 8.3, 7.5, 7.1, 6.5

MVP Awards
Hall of Famer Jim Rice: 1
Mystery Player: 2

MVP Top Five Finishes
Hall of Famer Jim Rice: 5
Mystery Player: 4

-------------------------

This is BTF, so you guys all know who the 'Mystery Player' is without having to look it up, I'm sure. Rice is maybe 5% better than the Mystery Player, mostly because he had two more useful seasons on the back end of his career.

I'm going to start a website sometime soon vehemently, violently advocating him for the Hall of Fame. He was as good as Jim Rice, after all!

Justin, without cheating:

Juan Gonzalez?

In fairness to Rice, I take his career over Gonzalez's. 400 more games played for Rice, and just a tick below on OPS+.

But it does demonstrate the point: there are scores of guys in Rice's general vicinity (or better).

Justin, be fair about the relative defensive skills. After all, Juan Gonzalez was competent enough that he played about 250 games in CF.

In all honesty, it wouldn't surprise me if an ostensibly improbable groundswell of support for Juan Gone materialized. The writers seem to jump on movements and travel in herds, and he has his pluses (see Justin's comparison.)

If he had had just one more season when he was good, I think we'd be sweating it out.

BTF Pop Quiz

Rank the below players in order of whose career you would most want. You get the entire package: career shape, peak, defense, injuries, intangibles, drug problems, etc.

Jim Rice
Juan Gonzalez
Ken Singleton
Roy White
Dwight Evans
Fred Lynn
Dave Parker
Jack Clark
Ellis Burks
Jose Canseco
Dale Murphy
Darryl Strawberry
Albert Belle
Dick Allen

If he had had just one more season when he was good, I think we'd be sweating it out.

If he he'd had one more season when he was good, his qualifications would be noticeably beyond Rice's. These guys really were pretty damn close to being the same guy.

Careful on the Gonzo comparison-- you might just help Rice's cause. Gonzo was on roids.

RICE
VS AL EAST CHAMPS
BETWEEN SOX SERIES APPEARANCES:
YR - TM - hr-rbi-avg-obp-slg;
76 - NY -- 4-15--443--478--705;
77 - NY -- 2--4--356--397--576;
78 - NY -- 3-12--269--342--576;
79 - BAL - 3-12--360--389--660;
80 - NY -- 0--6--333--379--481 in 7 games;
81 - NY -- 6 games;
82 - MIL - 1-11--389--441--574;
83 - BAL - 3--7--309--345--527;
84 - DET - 3-12--309--345--509;
85 - TOR - 0--8--410--442--564;

he was "Manny-vs-Yankees-esque"...

14: Huh? People just makin sh!t up?:
"But they also recognized that if they made the right pitches (the damn slider low and away, the one thing standing in the way of a genuine HOF career), it was easier to get him out."
The guy hit with power to all fields. A line drive hitter.

2: Foster had 2 seasons. Parker had 2 seasons. Yount had 1 season. Rice went from '77 to '84.

Not counting active players and not yet eligibles (Bagwell -- will he get in, actually?), here is the list of top SLG not in the HoF (off bb-ref, so min 3000 PA):

Mark McGwire .588
Larry Walker .565
Albert Belle .564
Juan Gonzalez .561
Dick Allen .533, followed by a herd of others close behind.

So, four guys are clear of the field. McGwire has steroids. Walker has Colorado. Belle... well, there are tons of arguments one could make about Belle on both sides, but regardless of your opinion of him, the abrupt nature of his injury meant that he didn't really have a decline phase (not that I expect the BBWAA to notice this, or need to.) And Juan Gone is 28 points above everyone else.

EDIT: Yes, everyone seems to believe -- including me -- that Juan Gone was on steroids, but as far as I can tell there was no public fiasco about him in particular.

EDIT-2: I am not seriously proposing that JG has any sort of legitimate HoF case (era adjustments most notably obviously diminish this stat a lot), but writers love shiny things.

Just off the top of my head, Ray:

Dwight Evans
Ken Singleton
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Roy White
Dick Allen
Albert Belle
Fred Lynn
Jack Clark
Juan Gonzalez
Jim Rice
Ellis Burks
Darryl Strawberry
Jose Canseco

Did I miss anyone? Don't think I did. This list is going to be wrong in a few places; I didn't take time to actually look anyone up, and I'll be easily swayed by your arguments. Before you get to Ellis Burks, it's a fairly tightly bunched group.

What exactly do a player's statistics vs. the AL east teams matter for a Hall of Fame case?

Huh? People just makin sh!t up?:
"But they also recognized that if they made the right pitches (the damn slider low and away, the one thing standing in the way of a genuine HOF career), it was easier to get him out."
The guy hit with power to all fields. A line drive hitter.

Uh? How does having power to all fields and being a line drive hitter mean that saying he was vulnerable to a low and away slider is "making sh!t up"?

Allen
Evans
Murphy
Belle
Singleton
Parker
Clark
Lynn
Canseco
Rice
White
Gonzalez/Burks

Yeah, I meant off the top of your head. Here's mine:

Dwight Evans
Darryl Strawberry
Jack Clark
Dale Murphy
Fred Lynn
Dick Allen
Albert Belle
Ken Singleton
Jose Canseco
Ellis Burks
Dave Parker
Jim Rice
Roy White
Juan Gonzalez

Obviously some of this may well look silly after about 90 seconds, but there it is.

Rationale for Strawberry being that high, Ray?

Gut feelings here:

Evans
Clark
Belle
Murphy
Singleton
Allen
Parker
Strawberry
Canseco
Lynn
Burks
Rice
Gonzalez
White

Jack Clark was a beast.

In all honesty, it wouldn't surprise me if an ostensibly improbable groundswell of support for Juan Gone materialized.

Maybe, when Rice retired it didn't look like he'd get in, his daze as the Al's most feared hitter were long gone, the writers personally disliked him, and their most recent memories of him were as a malcontent, who could hit, but couldn't field or run, and was a GDP machine with the game on the line....

Unfortunately it only took a few more years when they began remembering and writing about 1978-79, and how strong he was and....

I wanted Strawberry's peak seasons, including base running and defense. I didn't care about the drug issue in and of itself but it obviously was relevant that he was going to miss time for me; in retrospect, maybe the second half of his career should push him lower on the list.

As I said, a little checking of b-r -- or just more than a few seconds of thought -- could make some of these picks look silly :-)

Huh? People just makin sh!t up?:

Billyjack,

Are you seriously suggesting that Rice wasn't vulnerable to the slider low and away (well, everyone is, but he was more incapable of letting it go than most great hitters). If he could have just let that pitch go about 25 percent more frequently, we're not having this discussion because Jim Ed is already in the Hall of Fame.

I should look at all the stuff I have for HOM candidacies. If I did, it would probably change some of what's below, but ...

Evans
Allen
[Reggie Smith]
Singleton
Belle
J. Clark
Murphy
Lynn
Parker
Rice
Canseco
White
Strawberry
Gonzalez
Burks

The bottom 7 are placed nearly randomly.

Jack Clark was a beast.

He was. Would have been nice if he didn't keep missing September in his Cardinal years.

People seem to be agreeing on Evans. Interesting where people are putting Allen/Belle.

Dammit Strawberry could still hit when his career ended. I hate when that happens (such as with Bonds). That's why I'm thankful that Clemens had a kind of sucky (for him) final season in 2007.

Albert Belle
Dwight Evans
Fred Lynn
Dick Allen
Ken Singleton
Dale Murphy
Jack Clark
Jose Canseco
Dave Parker
Jim Rice
Juan Gonzalez
Darryl Strawberry
Ellis Burks

Omitted: Roy White (I'm not all that familiar with his work)

Allen and Belle were almost the same player, seems like to me; I rate Allen a little ahead, but I can't see that they should be divorced by much space at all on such a list.

Fear factor:

The following idea always amused me (would have to done "real time", not retrospectively). Collect together a panel of about two dozen pitchers from the league in question - full-time starters would be best. Strap them into a polygraph machine. Project large images of certain hitters, in uniform and in their batting stances, taken from about the perspective of the pitchers mount. Have the pitchers recite these words: "I'm not afraid of him. I can get him out any time I want to." Measure the polygraph response.

I don't what that would do in a lot of cases, but I'm convinced it would have tilted the long-disputed 1987 NL MVP in Jack Clark's direction.

Dammit Strawberry could still hit when his career ended.

He sure could. He looked awesome in that final, brief season. In complete control. Didn't swing at bad pitches. Mashed the good ones.

Gut and numbers memory, rather than numbers verification

Dwight Evans
Albert Belle
Dale Murphy
Dick Allen
Fred Lynn
Darryl Strawberry
Juan Gonzalez
Jose Canseco
Ken Singleton
Roy White
Dave Parker
Jim Rice
Jack Clark
Ellis Burks


I'm probably selling White a bit short since he had more 60s time than the others and the 60s aren't my strong point and I'm probably over-valuing Canseco's peak, but I'm pretty set on the top 3.

On the other hand, we have members of Bill James Youth

When you are making thinly veiled Hitler references in a baseball column, maybe it's time to see a mental health professional. The Curly-Haired Boyfriend appears to have reached a new low.

#40: somewhere in this thread (found it in #19), someone wrote that a "stroll through his stats in various clutch situations, as listed by baseball-reference.com, won't encourage you to support his hall case." Alright, well, against the division winners each year, he was consistently a monster. I mean, thinking back, I never remember him disappearing in key spots.

#41, #48: was Rice known for being a sucker for low outside sliders? Sorry, I don't remember this. I think of line drives to right, rocket line drive HRs to 420 in center, shots off and over the monster. He had no uppercut. No towering pop-up homers over the Monster. A pure hitter.

I mean, thinking back, I never remember him disappearing in key spots.

#41, #48: was Rice known for being a sucker for low outside sliders? Sorry, I don't remember this.

Well, I guess that's settled, then.

Steve - re #21: could you throw Rocky Colavito into that mix?

Colavito: 273 Win Shares, 84.0 WARP1

59: Disappearing in key spots... someone else threw out a line about him not being clutch. I never remembered him disappearing. I looked up his stats vs the Yankees. I looked up his stats vs the Orioles. I looked up his stats vs every division winner. I think "key spots" should to a large degree include playing NY, Balt, and the division winners. I realize it doesn't include everything. I found his numbers to be consistently excellent. So, the original unclutch statement is misleading. The stats vs the AL East Winners are an attempt to pull the original misleading statement back to the center at least.

59: Low outside sliders... right, nothing is settled.

There is something quite amusing about a Boston writer referring to "Bill James Youth", bearing in mind the success of the team under a charter member of the club, with the aid of the head honcho himself. I guess it takes stats to make the trains run on time.

Oh Theo, we never knew. Bringing in Steve Earle to sing the national anthem was a real clever decoy.

Jim Rice -- no thanks

Juan Gonzalez -- maybe ... do I get to NOT turn down Detroit's contract offer?

Ken Singleton -- honestly? I thought he was one of the most boring players in the majors. Good but dull.

Roy White -- never paid attention at the time.

Dwight Evans -- probably my leading choice as I always fancied myself a good defender

Fred Lynn -- a contender ... I'm guessing ROY, MVP, World Series in Boston leads to success with the ladies

Dave Parker -- I hated Parker. Helluva player.

Jack Clark -- I hated Clark plus demerits for defense.

Ellis Burks -- I could go this direction ... especially since probably nobody else will pick him. I have no idea why he's so far down on everyone's list. Is there something I'm forgetting? 2000 games, 126 OPS+, some of it as a decent CF. What's not to like?

Jose Canseco -- oh please god NO!

Dale Murphy -- can I skip the sanctimonious post-career (I mean the sanctimony of his variety, not mine :-)

Darryl Strawberry -- the most talented of the bunch probably (Parker, Allen) but I'll pass if I have to accept the baggage

Albert Belle -- part of me really wants to be Albert Belle ... but he was a massive jerk too.

Dick Allen -- he's on my contenders list too but nobody would buy me in the role of a proud, angry black man.

So I'll go with Evans.

Walt picks Evans too. Where are people, generally, on Evans's HOF case in a just world? Obviously he was damned good: 127 OPS+, 2600 games, several excellent hitting seasons, a good defensive right fielder, durable, no off the field problems...

Is that a Hall of Famer? No, but he doesn't miss by much. Certainly his career was much better than Rice's, which is another reason Rice's selection is problematic. Obviously Evans had a broad-based skill set, which works against him, but his peak was also not as concentrated as Rice's was.

In a just world Evans would receive more recognition than he has.

I did expect Evans to be a little closer to Winfield than he is. Winfield has a 130 OPS+, but in 2973 games.

I guess this is as good a place as any for this.

My HOF selections from this year's ballot, in bold:

Trammell
J. Bell
M. Williams
Dawson
Murphy
Parker
Gant
Henderson
Raines
Rice
G. Vaughn
M. Vaughn
Mattingly
McGwire
Baines

Blyleven
Cone
John
Morris
Orosco
Plesac
Smith

#41, #48: was Rice known for being a sucker for low outside sliders? Sorry, I don't remember this. I think of line drives to right, rocket line drive HRs to 420 in center, shots off and over the monster. He had no uppercut. No towering pop-up homers over the Monster. A pure hitter.

Yes, he was known for all those things. And they account for a solid 35 percent of his plate appearances. It's the other 65 percent, the times he made outs, that is problematic. And far too many of those outs were the result of him swinging and missing, or more often, trying to pull the damn thing and hitting a grounder to short. Hell, I suspect it's why he had so few intentional walks for a hitter of his caliber and, yes, reputation. If he came up in a situation where a walk was an acceptable outcome for the pitcher, better to throw pitches down and away and hope he chases, and allow the unintentional, intentional walk if he doesn't. If he does bite, you've got a good chance at an out. If it's some other hitter who won't swing at an offering outside the strike zone, then perhaps you just give him four free ones and let him take the base.

Further considering Strawberry, after perusing his record again:

I've gotta move him down. He was as good as I'd thought in his 20s. But, amazingly, he played just 334 games from age 30 on. And, yet, he still played until age 37. That is one incredible string of short seasons.

It's really one of the oddest -- and most fun -- careers you'll find.

It's really one of the oddest -- and most fun -- careers you'll find.

Honestly, I can't imagine "fun" being used to describe Strawberry's career.

Honestly, I can't imagine "fun" being used to describe Strawberry's career.

Well, I can't imagine the word "fun" being used to describe one of your posts :-)

Honestly, I can't imagine "fun" being used to describe Strawberry's career.

Really. "Wicked" maybe. "Bumpy" or "crazy" perhaps. I'm just not seeing "fun."

Well, Rice does get extra credit for being the third-best member of the late 1970s Red Sox outfield.

Honestly, I can't imagine "fun" being used to describe Strawberry's career.

Sure we can! "Tumor" is just one letter away from "humor"!

A couple dozen references to whose career we'd want, including baggage, and no mention of the women involved? Get a grip, men!

Strawberry's career is too sad for it to be fun. The guy could have been the new Reggie.

I think Evans is just out of the Hall of Fame - there's not enough peak there for me. That's not to say he'd disgrace the Hall, because he's better than a good number of the outfielders in it, especially when you consider his outstanding defense. But I'd have loved to have seen him bust out 2-3 160 OPS+ seasons in the middle of it. Of course, he might get one of those signature years if it wasn't for the strike, because he was about the best player in the AL that year.