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If Cleveland's line isn't successful, they're doing something wrong.
The scenery was also pretty bizarre: "Welcome to Cleveland, here's some homeless guys sleeping on the Rapid tracks"
By the way, during the Browns-Colts game on TV, they showed our whiffleball field. That was pretty cool.
A truly depressing ride on the RTA (sorta like having a paper route on Frelinghuysen Ave in Newark) to and from the airport. One closed factory after another...failed graffiti blocks...piss-dripping tressles...wild grass growing over the tracks...fare breaks for Crips...old fart-SABRdude razzing me on stats...
So, natch...I had a great time!
How about "The Tranny"?
The slogans write themselves: "It'll get you where you're going - just don't look down."
Limited mass transit doesn't really work. It has to get you basically everywhere you need to go. In a spread out city/suburbia, this would be incredibly expensive to build.
If you have to drive 20 min. to get to a subway stop, no one's going to bother getting out of the car.
It runs all the way to East St. Louis!
I was once approached to play 3-card Monte on the Metrolink. I politely declined.
Phoenix's light rail will get its chance to fail later this month. They're already running ads reminding people that the light rail cars are silent, so you need to look around to avoid being run over.
So David, what kind of public transportation does work?
Well, it's in Cleveland, for starters.
It's an homage to Feller.
Thanks - I would add that it helps if busses have a dedicated right of way, thereby avoiding traffic issues that private commuters have to face. In Marin County (north of SF), this is a huge issue - I take the ferryboat to work in SF as it doesn't have to deal w/ the rigors of 101 congestion.
My experience with light rail is limited to the MUNI in San Francisco and the El in Chicago, but both of those are packed during rush hours.
It's extremely helpful in places where the traffic/parking situation is otherwise a nightmare (like Chicago and San Francisco). Where it fails is when they try to cram it into places where it's not needed, or when they run it from a place where nobody lives to a place where nobody goes (as in Los Angeles).
As far as "nobody rides it", maybe if it were subsidized even more, people would. You know, like how people will sit for hours in traffic because they don't have to pay anything to take up space on the highway (in other words, their driving is subsidized). Also, in my experience, lots of people ride it. I refute you thus!
Where it fails is when they try to cram it into places where it's not needed, or when they run it from a place where nobody lives to a place where nobody goes (as in Los Angeles).
This may seem like corruption or insanity, but it also is the government trying to predict where development will occur in the future, and building transport systems to encourage people to move there.
The government has to make choices, man.
This is why it is going to fail spectacularly in Phoenix.
My experience with light rail is limited to the MUNI in San Francisco and the El in Chicago, but both of those are packed during rush hours.
It's extremely helpful in places where the traffic/parking situation is otherwise a nightmare (like Chicago and San Francisco). Where it fails is when they try to cram it into places where it's not needed, or when they run it from a place where nobody lives to a place where nobody goes (as in Los Angeles).
When I go to Chicago (not that often, but it happens), I drive straight to the park and ride (don't remember the name of it, but it's right off 94, stop after O'Hare), park ze car and take the train in. I'll deal with transfers and train rides well before Chicago in-town driving.
I did that once and wound up going the wrong way up the street (seriously, who designs streets so that consecutive one-way streets go the same direction?) and barely avoiding accidents. I grew up in NYC, so public transport is natural to me.
That's not really light rail. Those are full blown "subway" systems.
In dense cities, NY, Chi, Bos, SF, Phi (?), mass transit works b/c it goes basically everywhere, and there is a city core that a lot of suburbanites come to for work/leisure.
Which I guess begs the question: How do you design an effective mass transit system in a not-so-dense city? i.e. Phoenix, Orlando
In those situations buses are preferable to trains, I think. Because the areas with less or more population shifts over time, leaving the tracks behind. As well as the area being of low density so it would be super expensive to build the actual tracks.
But if you have only a few buses, people won't take them because they don't want to plan around a bus that only shows up every 90 minutes, doesn't run after 8 PM, and is on an uncertain schedule because it gets stuck in traffic with all the other cars.
So...you need to give everyone a car. And tell them when to drive.
I think the answer may be, you can't.
Mass transit is great at connecting relatively few nodes with high traffic between them. Cars are good at connecting many nodes, with few high trafficked pairings.
I think congestion pricing is a way better bet for improving transportation in low density cities.
I think the answer may be, you can't.
Maybe the answer is more densely populated cities? I haven't thought a great deal about this, but maybe it's our city planning that's ass-backwards? Hmm. Any city planners out there? There's always at least one expert in this crowd.
Buses are the best current alternative. Long term you need to increase density in the city core to bring more people together that will allow other mass transit systems to work. Phoenix has a bigger city footprint at 1/10th the density of New York, 1/8 the density of San Francisco and 1/6th density of Chicago.
Of course, for the two examples I cited, the ability to drive wherever you want is one of their selling points.
I honestly don't know what the answer is either. Having been to both cities, I will just say the ability to drive anywhere is undermined by the fact that you HAVE to drive everywhere and deal with traffic.
In case you're not being ironic, you should check out some James Howard Kunstler.
Not being ironic. City planning is something I won't pretend to have any knowledge of.
I am assuming an amount of irony in that statement, but if that isn't the case, how can a 40 story building have a parking lot in front of it?
check out some James Howard Kunstler.
I read that a couple of years ago. Awesome book. Extra points for being anti-Disney.
So much for the Susan Ross Foundation scholarship, Van Buren Boy. I'm no expert, either, but I am reading The Power Broker.
Well, she's controversial to some, but Jane Jacobs is another nice place to start. For some more modern, car-specific stuff, try Donald Shoup.
In that case, I'll settle for the deck across the street. But if I have to scrounge for street parking, then I don't want to go.
If these books are about how America is being destroyed byt the Wal-Mart/Home Depot/Applebee's/etc etc etc cookie cutter strip malls that make every city in America larger than 20,000 people look exactly the same--ugly--then I am sympathetic to reading them.
Will do. St. Nicholas Day is coming and I have big, big shoes!
That would be Atlanta.
Who else was with me when we saw the Cleveland bus absolutely belching exhaust from the back while promoting itself as being clean and efficient?
It was cheap for me because all the fare machines were broken and there was no explanation about how to pay anywhere.
However, the train was close to one hour late with no announcements as to why. And the airport station is unstaffed late at night. Because I suppose it makes no sense to have someone around to help people who are unfamiliar with the area and the transit system to help you with matters.
I like Cleveland in the same way Cato the Elder liked Carthage.
The "Should we take the car or the boat to AT&T;Park" debates I have with my friends are unbelievably complex. I'm all for the boat, but some want the freedom to leave early or go where they want afterwards.
It's so restrictive. I go running after work - where would I put my stuff if not in my car? If I want to go to the grocery store afterward, I'd have to go home first. I hate planning my schedule based on transportation - I'd rather plan my transportation based on my schedule.
I'm sure this also describes most Primates.
One recently built, very successful light-rail system is the one in Salt Lake City.
It's been a decade, but when I lived in Cleveland I used the train almost daily for work, and it was the only way I ever went to the airport. Never had a complaint or a problem, though the Blue/Green trains were MUCH cleaner than the Red ones.
People tend to be more reluctant to use it if those conditions are not met, though they still might if the inconvenience of getting to a station and working around a schedule < dealing with traffic parking.
Whether or not the first model is feasible given the geography and demographics of most places is a different problem.
BART and Cal Trans have this issue in the Bay Area. The unfortunate flaw of any transporation system is the "How to Idiot-Proof against any and all types" issue (i.e. people jumping fences so they can listen to their Ipods while walking down a railroad track)>
Just wondering -- how close does the Rapid come to the Indians/Cavaliers sports complex? Rail didn't serve the lakefront area until the mid-nineties, I believe.
Exactly. But it's not just about the shopping; it's about the commuting itself. I want to go to work or go home when I want, not when the trains are running.
Any choice made by the government - other than self-immolation - is not okay with David.
He's definitely right about city buses, however. I rode them EVERYWHERE in Portland, San Francisco, and Seattle.
How do you come in?
I take Metro North, and the ride is fine, ~40 min to GCT. The train is clean, usually on-time.
I then have to take the subway downtown, and that's the wildcard. But if I worked in midtown, I'd love my commute.
Well, where I live, the trains are running all the time.
It's actually a bit faster door to door to get to and from my job via public transportation - the only issue is that the bus that runs from the train to my job only runs every hour to hour and a half. If it ran as often as the train, it wouldn't even be an issue - I'd never drive to work.
I'd much rather be reading a book during my commute than fighting traffic. I don't enjoy driving per se.
Shaker is still a very nice area. Very beautiful houses, one of the larger concentrations of Tudor style homes in the country.
There's a rapid station in Shaker, so it would be convenient for people on the east side to get downtown. I'm on the west side and the stations are all pretty inconvenient, I'd need to drive there which sort of defeats the purpose. I actually would like to use public transportation but I'm afraid I'll have a seizure on the bus and then get robbed.
The rapid drops you off at the Terminal Tower downtown, not far at all from Indians/Cavs games. Kinda far to walk for a Browns game in crappy weather though.
Which is of no use if you had to go (in the rain) to the SABR sub-station at the
PimpRadisson Hotel.Just ask Jim...
Or eating, drinking, chatting, reading a newspaper, etc.
The convenience factor alluded to above is important, though. Ideally one should be able to go wherever they want whenever they want, or at least have the wait times/walking distances be trivial.
Perhaps at some point the major thoroughfares will be lined with a ski lift-type mechanism, where all one has to do is hop on and hop off where desirable. Shoppers could use the system, but be charged a premium. Ahh, Sci-Fi, Skiing, and Public Transportation, what a winning combination!
Where do you live that don't see people doing this at 65 MPH in bumper to bumper traffic while driving an H3 during the morning rush?
Kansas City the fall of 2007 passed light rail plan that would run from the zoo, in one of the least desirable areas of town to the Plaza, probably the most expensive shopping area of town. There is basically no major employers on the route, so it wouldn't help any of the commuters. It was just a crazy plan, fortunately the politicians grid locked it until this fall when the voters overturned the decision. It would have been a spectacular failure.
The KC airport is as far from downtown as Cleveland's - or farther - though the are in between is farmland and suburbs rather than the setting from a zombie movie Repoz described above. It makes it really hard to lure a convention of any size, because the only way to get there for most is a fairly expensive taxi ride.
But no one seems to think a light rail from the airport to downtown makes sense for KC except me.
Point taken. I just prefer to partake in the eating/drinking/reading w/o having to worry about driving too. Sadly, many disagree.
Marin/Sonoma counties also passed a light rail plan that is SCHEDULED to debut in 2015. If it at least reached the ferry terminal, it would be somewhat logical. Instead, it connects bus depots in Santa Rosa and San Rafael, with a couple of stops at major employers (Fireman's Fund Insurance Company, Marin County Civic Center), and a couple of other bus terminals. In between, it will NOT have the right of way in various downtowns, so this will cause more congestion.
While I'm a public transportation buff, I voted against it.
I was in Cleveland last year during the blizzard. The Rapid was packed with Browns fans. I went out to the airport (which was closed) and back into the city. The Browns fans are a hardy lot.
I only wish that I could go 65 MPH during the morning rush (or the evening rush). I'm happy if I'm going 35 MPH.
If I catch a Baby Bullet, I can usually be at work in under an hour door to door, and it's quite relaxing to start off the day catching up with my RSS feeds. On the way back, it's also nice to not have to worry about driving when I'm tired -- I can hop on and get a nice nap in before getting home, which is nice, because then I have a bit more energy to get dinner, do stuff around the house, go to the gym, etc. after I get there.
Ok, I'll bite - where is that?
hm, well i just want to brag that i now live 15 min. from work, by foot.
Ok, I'll bite - where is that?
I grew up in Canton so I never used the rapid, but it seems like any mass transit system in metro Cleveland that doesn't serve Parma and the southern suburbs or Lorain and the western suburbs is a really bad idea that's destined to fail. Just in Parma and Lorain alone, within the city limits of those two cities, there are 134,000+ people, and that doesn't count Rocky River or Avon or Brecksville or North Royalton or any of the other places the rapid doesn't serve.
It's the best I've used, in terms of being on time, letting you know when a train was coming, cleanliness and availability. It's hard to go to other cities and wait on the platform for an undetermined amount of time.
Drawbacks: They don't run 24 hours, and exit fares are kind of a pain.
I kind of wanted to be a Metro driver back then.
The subway trains are frequent, the stations are individualized (and some of them, works of art) and they took me and my wife to 90% of the locations we needed with minimal walking in between. The 5 day subway/train pass we got for Paris was easily the best value we've found in our various travels.
I'm a 1L at GW now, when did you graduate?
I really like the DC metro (eastern market to farragut west, 25 min. door to door), but its a little iffy on weekends. Its annoying to have to wait 15 minutes for a train in the middle of the day, which can happen on the weekend. I grew up in NY and went to college in St. Louis, so moving back to a city with real public transit has been pretty sweet. Also, its nice that the metro is not as crowded as the NYC subways. NYC is really getting to the point where it has so many people riding they can't accomodate them no matter how often the trains run
1998. Different world. The whole law school was Lerner Hall, that old middle section, and the little bit of the library connected to it. The rest of the buildings on the quad belonged to other schools. The journals were in an old house that has since been demolished. To say it was cramped quarters understates things considerably.
You don't have Seigel for Civ Pro, do you? My class was his first ever as a professor. He used the baseball rules as a teaching aid. Pretty sweet.
So of course their mass transit sucks. Their city line is a Swartzchild radius beyond which no good or decent thing remains worth having.
Edit:
Welcome to Hartford!
Ted Lerner? Pretty sure he's an alumnus. I'm just shocked he'd open the wallet up enough to get a building named after him.
miracle mile in the middle of los angeles. i'm also walking distance from Los Angeles County Museum of Art (it's half a frickin block down the street), a half dozen restaurants/bars, live music, the farmer's market at 3rd and fairfax, etc. ... canter's deli is a five minute drive, as is la brea, which has a jillion places to eat etc. great location.
I will point out that the Frank Lautenberg Station isn't for light rail, although it was a fairly ridiculous boondoggle - especially the Turnpike exit they added even though there isn't any parking there. (Although the idea was a good one - where the lines going into NYC and Hoboken cross, maybe it would be a good idea for people to be able to switch from one to the other.)
Never thought about who it was named after at the time. You're local: go to the corner of 20th and H NW and read the building. If it helps, the building was kind of crappy 13 years ago, so I'm sure it sucks extra Lerneriffically now.
Lots of great alumni from GW: Lerner. J. Edgar Hoover. Me. All of the respectable people.
I just googled it. Yeah, it's Uncle Teddy. I wonder which level of government he got to pay for it for him?
Given that my tuition even back in the day was about five times the GNP of most emerging democracies, I'm sure I helped quite a bit.
Loved living in DC/NoVA for three years; hated everything about GW Law School.
The center guy (tackle Joe Thomas?) plays for the Browns. If Jesus Christ came back and played for the Browns, they'd still suck. And he'd probably get caught banging the semi-fresh corpse of a clapped-out hooker in a mop closet in the stadium's sub-basement.
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