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Baseball Primer Newsblog — The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand Wednesday, May 09, 2007Shysterball: Gagne’s Activation: Innocuous Roster Move, or Sabermetric Test Case?I believe it was noted page-turder/hurler Cal Koontz that said..."No matter how innocuous something is, somebody can always take it the wrong way.”
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My BookmarksYou must be logged in to view your Bookmarks. Hot TopicsNewsblog: MLB, Granderson join anti-obesity effort (98 - 10:36pm, Feb 09) Last: baseball chick (now, with NEW blog) Newsblog: Sam Hutcheson's Top 11 Sabrenerd Baseball Dork's* Basements (19 - 10:30pm, Feb 09) Last: Johnny Clash Newsblog: Hardball Talk: Gleeman: Lenny Dykstra is back with some more can't miss investment advice (128 - 10:29pm, Feb 09) Last: Der_K 2 Newsblog: Joe Torre on "Castle" (17 - 10:14pm, Feb 09) Last: B.G. Gamesh Reeks of Anti-Yankee Bias (w/Zombies) Newsblog: Cashman: No new pacts for big three
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Koch was more of a case of using him just about everyday and dumping him right before his arm fell off.
I've got Otsuka in fantasy. Its a weekly move league, so the announcement came too soon for me to bench Akinori for the week, but I'm not worried, he'll probably be closing again before the week is over.
It was a great move value-wise from the Reds, but they seemed dishonest in their dealings with Shaw. The Reds further upgraded to Mike Cameron, made a surprise almost wild card run, then used Cameron to bring in a Hall of Famer in Griffey.
I guess the Reds got what they deserved in the end. Karma's a bee-atch.
Anyway, certainly not the first time somebody credits Billy Beane with inventing something that was already done before, and better, by someone else.
Getting suckered on the pump and dump: Dotel
Both: Koch
Seems Bowden has lost his touch. If there ever was an opportunity it would have been cashing in on Chad Cordero this offseason.
You mean guys like Eddie Guardado and Joe Nathan?
Pretty much every closer in MLB history, except guys like Gregg Olson and Huston Street, who were born in the 8th inning and immediately took the ball to shut down the 9th before they could walk or talk.
That's why innovation is in parentheses. You might note, however, that Guardado became a Closer in 2002. When Beane was trading for Isringhausen in 1999 and declaring him to be the closer, there were more than a few eyebrows raised.
Two excellent examples.
It seems that for every reliever that has sustained success over years and years of work (Trevor Hoffman, Mariano Rivera) there are twenty that have a few years of success, and then flame out. Trading away closers at the peak of their value seems like it is a great idea more often than not. You get a guy like Danny Kolb, you trade him away as soon as possible.
I'm sort of hoping the Sox trade away Bobby Jenks, either this summer or in the off-season.
It's true, and an oddity about the game. Is this more so in recent years (seems like there's a bunch of guys like this now) or has it always been this way?
Dennis Eckersley, for that matter. That's just how closers are made. The question is whether you're good at finding them / making them or not.
Well, yeah, because Isringhausen was still considered a starting prospect at that time, albeit a fading one. He didn't have the normal path to being an MLB closer (ie., success as a middle reliever first).
Its not that uncommon:
Papelbon
Gagne
Dempster
Brett Myers
Smoltz
Gossage
Righetti
Gagne
Dempster
Brett Myers
Smoltz
Gossage
Righetti
Gossage was actually a middle reliever first. The White Sox then used him as a fireman one year (1975) before they tried him as a starter, in 1976.
While Papelbon was a starter in the minors, after three MLB starts, he was basically used in middle relief at the end of the 2005 season before being anointed closer in 2006.
Myers, Righetti, Dempster, and Gagne all had a good deal of success as starters (I suppose that stating that closers normally come through the bullpen is off-base) before being converted to relief for one reason or another.
Isringhausen was different in that he looked like he was done as a prospect when the A's acquired him and made him closer. He hadn't really had any success in the majors in three years, and suddenly he was a closer.
So I guess my original statement wasn't really right - I just needed to clarify what I was thinking.
One interesting thing I've noticed this year is that Beane's quietly been buying some of Cleveland's minor league pitchers: Dan Denham just recently, and Travis Foley the week before that. Both were fairly high picks in the '01 draft, and both are somewhat disappointing at this point in their respective careers, with Foley having been moved to the pen and Denham struggling to break the AAA barrier.
It could just be a case of him covering for organizational holes, but I thought it was interesting that both transactions were with the same franchise, and both were unqestionably cash deals (instead of the ubiquitous "player to be named later/future considerations".
also, at mississippi state, he was a reliever/closer.
it should also be noted that Mariano Rivera was a starter in the minors and made 10 starts in 1995 before becoming jon wetteland's setup man in 96.
i would say that most closers start off as failed starters. there are very few major leaguers like huston street or craig hansen that start their college/semi-pro career as relievers.
in fact, a quick survey shows that anyone with 300+ saves had spent a majority of their minor league stints as starters, with the exception of trevor hoffman, troy percival, and tom henke (bruce sutter's minor league gs numbers are unavailable).
goes to show that for the most part, these guys have really good stuff, but can only last 1-2 innings, or have only 1-2 good pitches (as opposed to the 3-4 needed to start), e.g. you were good enough to start in the minors, but not in the majors.
Too late now.
I see Papelbon following the same career path if he's not careful.
If you've got the pitches to be a starter, you should be a starter.
The thing I remember most about the Shaw trade is that it happened three days before the 1998 All-Star Game - to which Shaw had been selected. His first appearance in a game wearing a Dodgers' uniform was the All-Star Game...
The Matt Karchner-for-Jon Garland trade was also halfway through the '98 season. Same idea.
I agree with this here. Guys with established reputations tend to carry those reputations around. Jose Mesa had 43 saves in 2004, 3.25 ERA. Nobody was rushing to overpay the Pirates for him. You wouldn't be able to take Mike Stanton, pump 15 saves into him for half a season, and then suddenly garner a king's ransom at the deadline for him.
Likewise, I think pump-and-dump really only works as a long term project. You have to turn a guy into a "proven closer." If Huston Street goes down tomorrow and Justin Duchscherer fills in as the closer for the rest of the season, Beane probably isn't going to all of a sudden be able to sell him as a closer in the off season.
Unless Duchscherer struggles in the role, I don't see why he wouldn't.
I don't think he's going to get any more trade value out of Duke just because he picks up 20 saves or so. He's a very valuable pitcher right now and plenty of teams would like to have him. Like Scot Shields. I'm sure there are plenty of teams that would have loved to have him as a closer, if only Bill Stoneman wanted to trade him.
Guys are groomed as relievers much more these days. I can't remember anyone prior to Percival (I guess Hoffman was around the same time, without looking it up) who was groomed strictly as a closer. Street is one of these new breed.
Like Scot Shields. I'm sure there are plenty of teams that would have loved to have him as a closer, if only Bill Stoneman wanted to trade him.
I shouldn't love him b/c he's an Angel, but Shields is great. 38th round pick. Finally got him on my fantasy team this year.
Gregg Olson was the original. Stats
College closer, drafted in 1988, quick trip through minors, big league closer in 89.
btw: that was a poor blog entry.
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