This has got to be the slowest derby field in sports history.

What Sparkles said (when I first saw the blurb, I mentally confused derby with rally, which seemed oddly apropos, since the Dakar Rally has been cancelled this year).

It's Wednesday so Hank is officially back in the Santana race.

There's really nothing left to say about this matter until he actually gets dealt.

It's Wednesday so Hank is officially back in the Santana race.

Yes, but it's nearly Thursday so he'll be out of it again. Unless the moon is full, in which he'll be in until the next day whose date can be divided by either 13 or 6, unless Saturn has aligned with Venus in which Joba will be on the table but only if a senance conducted with the Ghost of Phil Rizzuto endorses the idea by the next day of the week who date is divisible by 17 or 8.

This has got to be the slowest derby field in sports history.

if this were a derby, two horses never left the gate and the third stopped after 20 feet so the jockey could have a smoke

Maybe the horses are named Jason Philips, Johnny Estrada and Brian McCann

The Horse Racing analogy has been done. See post 19 and bask in my foresight.

All of this really makes me appreciate having Dave Dombrowski at the head of my team. At least he can make a ####### decision.

The never ending DEEEERRRBBY! Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah...

the Mets may actually be the favorite now. At the very least, there are indications now that they are engaging in more regular dialogue with the Twins in recent days than either the Red Sox or Yankees.

This clinches it, 2 weeks from now, out of the Blue we're all going to wake up and learn that Johan has been traded to the Dodgers for Kemp and Kershaw

Santana would be a perfect fit, the No. 1 pitcher to go in front of Pedro Martinez

I knew this day would finally come.
I prayed it would not come this soon.

Maybe the horses are named Jason Philips, Johnny Estrada and Brian McCann

I wager that those three would absolutely cream the Molina brothers' track team.

Maybe the horses are named Jason Philips, Johnny Estrada and Brian McCann

I wager that those three would absolutely cream the Molina brothers' track team.

If this Derby is run at the same distance as the Kentucky Derby, neither team would complete the mile and a quarter before 2015 at the earliest. And that's assuming they all didn't drop dead first. You willing to wait that long to collect on your bet, Sparkles?

You'd time that race with a calendar...

There's really nothing left to say about this matter until he actually gets dealt.

Or he opens for the Twins on opening day. I think that would be comment-worthy.

There hasn't been a derby this exciting since the Kurwood Derby

C'mon Yankees and RedSox.....make this happen. Keep Johan out off the Mets. We have enough pitching the NL now, thank you very much.

If I were Epstein I'd seriously consider trading Kalish or some other decent prospect to the Mets for a C prospect just to give the Mets the extra piece they need to seal the deal.

please god make it stop

In a perfect world Santana will soon be linked to the Cubs in a trade for Murton, Marquis, Patterson, Pie, and Gallagher. Oh and the Twins would have to throw in a second basemen.

Oh and the Twins would have to throw in a second basemen.

Is Luis Rivas still hanging around their system? He sucks enough to be a Cub.

All of this really makes me appreciate having Dave Dombrowski at the head of my team. At least he can make a ####### decision.

I still can't believe that Cabrera deal happened in, like, 12 hours. That's friggin' HOT.

At this point, I hope Bill Smith's waiting gets him less and less in return. I hate this story.

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when bad reporters die, in hell they are forced to cover the Santana story, WHICH NEVER ENDS.....

If I were Epstein I'd seriously consider trading Kalish or some other decent prospect to the Mets for a C prospect just to give the Mets the extra piece they need to seal the deal.

I wholeheartedly support this idea.

If I were Epstein I'd seriously consider trading Kalish or some other decent prospect to the Mets for a C prospect just to give the Mets the extra piece they need to seal the deal.

I know the Red Sox and some of their fans think it is impossible for them to actually lose a Series against a NL team but can you imagine the uproar in Red Sox Nation if the Mets beat the Sox in the World Series and Johan Santana was a huge part of that team?

if the Mets beat the Sox in the World Series and Johan Santana was a huge part of that team?

<yawn> First, that's an improbable scenario. The Red Sox are much less likely to face the Mets than they are to face the Yankees. Second, Red Sox fans have never been under the impression that they ought to control every decent player on the face of the planet. That's a New York thing. Third, at least from my perspective, I'm still not interested. If the Twins like the current offer, then fine. If they don't, then fine.

--Second, Red Sox fans have never been under the impression that they ought to control every decent player on the face of the planet.--

It's not that they "ought" to control players, it's just that in the above hypothetical (where they trade a prospect to the mets), they ARE controlling johan to a certain degree. if that decision came back to bite them, then yes, RSN would have a problem.

NY Times: Santana’s Hometown Awaits His Next Move

Bishop, F6

I know the Red Sox and some of their fans think it is impossible for them to actually lose a Series against a NL team but can you imagine the uproar in Red Sox Nation if the Mets beat the Sox in the World Series and Johan Santana was a huge part of that team?

That's a fair point. THe move would be a huge gamble, but it would allow them to keep him out of the AL and away from the Yankees while holding on to all of their top prospects.

Ah. I wasn't taking the idea of giving away Kalish seriously. Should I? :-)

Forget Kalish. What about a three way where the Red Sox end up sending Coco Crisp to the Twins and get a prospect from the Mets? That way the Twins can get a major league player, and a good defensive center fielder at that. Isn't one of the problems with the Mets' offer that the Twins would prefer someone who can contribute right away?

Isn't one of the problems with the Mets' offer that the Twins would prefer someone who can contribute right away?

How is Crisp significantly different from Corey Patterson who is readily available?

How is Crisp significantly different from Corey Patterson who is readily available?

He's a better defender and a slightly better hitter?

He's a better defender and a slightly better hitter?

He's not a better defender.

Huh, just checked a couple of sources - didn't realize Patterson was so good defensively. I stand corrected on the D. Crisp is still a better hitter, however...

ZiPS: Crisp .271/.333/.410
Patterson .257/.295/.402

is a significant difference.

Is 30 points of OBP a significant difference? Also, most opinions put Crisp ahead of Patterson defensively, at least for 2007. Patterson is a little like Adam Everett, but without the exceptional glove-work.

If the Twins want Crisp, I'm sure a deal can be worked out one way or another.

He's a better defender and a slightly better hitter?

Crisp may be a slightly player overall depending on how much weight you give his last two years in Cleveland. IMO, I don't the difference in the two players is so large that I'd target Crisp as a significant part of a package for Santana when I could get Patterson for free.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/01/church-as-part.html

Church As Part Of A Santana Deal?
Michael Silverman of the Boston Herald has some info on a Johan Santana possibility, and it isn't the usual rehashed stuff. He writes:

A package the Twins could receive will probably not include both of the Mets’ top outfield prospects, Carlos Gomez and Fernando Martinez. There are indications that Martinez would be in the deal, along with major league outfielder Ryan Church and at least two other prospects. Starter Mike Pelfrey could be part of the deal as well....

Would Martinez, Deolis Guerra, Kevin Mulvey, and Church get it done? Maybe not a fan-pleaser but you'd have guys who can contribute now and others that can develop into superstars. Would Michael Cuddyer still be a center field candidate if the Twins acquire Church?

IMO, I don't the difference in the two players is so large that I'd target Crisp as a significant part of a package for Santana when I could get Patterson for free.

And I'm just bored at work at the moment and figured I'd argue the point.

Who would play rightfield for the Mets in that scenario? Gomez isn't ready and I am not ready for a season of Shawn Green or Luis Gonzalez. If you don't think Bonds is a legitimate target for the Mets, Kenny Lofton might be the best option.

I don't think that is a real rumor.

Russlan, maybe Chavez/Gomez platoon? Or maybe Green's back for a Green/Gomez platoon?

I could hold my nose and tolerate a Chavez/Gomez platoon of some sort with Green on the bench most of the time. Once he wasn't in right field every damned day his hitting was helpful to the team.

Luis Gonzalez will listen if the Mets called. He hit 57 homers once. Another player of potential interest is Brad Wilkerson. Omar knows him from his days with the Expos and he can play RF

Russlan, maybe Chavez/Gomez platoon? Or maybe Green's back for a Green/Gomez platoon?

Green is an acceptable bat against rigthanders. He doesn't have much power anymore but does a good job getting on base because he hits for average and can take a walk. He's below average on defense but isn't quite as bad as his rep around here. Overall, in a strict platoon he might be acceptable and his durability is a point in his favor especially considering Alou is the other corner outfielder.

Gomez isn't ready. He needs at least a few months in AAA if not a full season.

Endy is a very good 4th outfielder but as a left-handed portion of a platoon, he's basically a starter. That's more AB than I'd want to give him.

when bad reporters die, in hell they are forced to cover the Santana story, WHICH NEVER ENDS.....

I think the Hades ballclub is looking to trade Sisyphus, there would be a good long story.

I think the Hades ballclub is looking to trade Sisyphus, there would be a good long story.

When they send a guy down to AAA, do they say he's heading for the Styx?

So are Twins collecting right fielders now? Church is a stretch at center, though I guess he’ll be better than Cuddyer.

Even if Church is not dealt, I think the Mets are a RH outfielder short. I know the plan is to have Easley be that guy, but he’s no spring chicken and he’s backing up a whole bunch of other positions. I thought Omar gave up on Ben Johnson too soon. Sure he stunk last year, but he showed a decent ability to hit lefties and play a multitude of positions prior to joining the Mets. Also, the Mets have open roster spots - is he out of options?

Oh, and there’s always Pagan.

You know, I had completely forgotten that the Mets had traded for Pagan.

Even if Church is not dealt, I think the Mets are a RH outfielder short.

Maybe the Twins will send Craig Monroe along with Santana....that solves the Mets problem of needing a RH outfielder and the Twins problem of having Craig Monroe.

that solves the Mets problem of needing a RH outfielder

I notice you didn't say "RH hitting outfielder." The Mets would strongly prefer that the right-handed outfielder they play in right-field be capable of hitting.

That would appear to disqualify Craig Monroe.

That said, I could warm to this idea of a package of Church and three prospects, a lot more than I could ever deal with cleaning out every prospect the Mets have for Santana. Yes, the more prospect-heavy deal would leave the Mets better off if you are thinking ONLY of 2008, but that is not the proper way to assess things. You have to balance the needs of next year's ball club with those of the organization going forward. And leaving the farm with some useful assets for the future is far smarter, even if it means we may get less production and lose some games off next year's win total.

And to take Sam's point a bit further, it takes the Twins a bit better in the short term by short-changing the total long-term value of their haul as well. I think it's a better idea for everyone. (But even if this trade comes to nothing, please take Craig Monroe anyway.)

"Who would play rightfield for the Mets in that scenario?"

Xavier Nady, acquired for a B-level prospect.

Ok so the OF situation is a little bit of a problem with this trade, but the 5th starter to Johan upgrade is immense.

Xavier Nady, acquired for a B-level prospect.

Can I play too?

Matt Murton acquired for Carlos Gomez.

I'd love to have Nady back, but I think the Pirates would (rightfully) want something for him, and they're not going to have anything left if they do this deal...

Maybe it's totally irrational, but I don't want to give up Martinez. Of Martinez, Gomez and Milledge, they'd be left with the one least valuable to them. Least valuable overall, but he has more value to a team in need of a CF.

I don't think it has sunk in just how bad a hit the Mets are going to take by running Schnieder out there every day. He won't be Rey Ordonez bad, but he won't be a huge tick above him either. He's already my least favorite Met, and I thought no one would make me miss LoDuca. Is there really a running team in the NL East it's worth acquiring a player to shut down, other than the Mets?

I think this Schneider stuff is a little overblown. Yes, he's a lousy hitter. But most catchers are terrible hitters. We're a little spoiled with a nice run of catchers lately, including a strong 2006 season from LoDuca.

Schneider was arguably better offensively than LoDuca in 2007 (.235/.326/.336 vs. .272/.311/.378). He's 5 years younger and he can't be worse defensively. It's not out of the question for the guy to put up something like a .255/.340/.360 line, which isn't anything impressive, but far from team-crushing if he's even just average defensively.

If Schneider is a poor defensive catcher, that's a totally different story.

I think the Hades ballclub is looking to trade Sisyphus, there would be a good long story.

But he is so not clutch! He just can't get over the hump.

It's not out of the question for the guy to put up something like a .255/.340/.360 line, which isn't anything impressive, but far from team-crushing if he's even just average defensively.

No, what's "team-crushing" is what you'll see Lastings Milledge put up for the Nats every day while Schneider and Church do their averageish work for the Mets in 2008. Not to mention spirit-crushing. And possibly Omar-crushing.

Could happen...won't...
He slugged .329 and .336 the last two years. You can't live with that when Luis Castillo's in your lineup and your pitcher hits. He's going to hit #8- last year 7 of his 56 walks were intentional, the year before it was 10/38. I want no part of this guy. He's terrible and we gave up Milledge for him. A lot of rallies are gonna die by his hand.

"I'd love to have Nady back, but I think the Pirates would (rightfully) want something for him, and they're not going to have anything left if they do this deal..."

Speakin' as a Pirates fan, I bet they'd flip him for one of your young SPs. Whether that's something you'd be willing to trade is, of course, another question.

On principle, I will never be able to root for either of Ryan Church or Brian Schneider, so I fully support trading one or both of them. I can see how F-Mart makes his way into the deal if Church is included as I'm sure Omar is thinking that he would need Gomez around to play RF if Church is traded, but I think that would be a mistake. I would not include F-Mart in a Santana deal under almost any realistic set of circumstances.

Is there really a running team in the NL East it's worth acquiring a player to shut down, other than the Mets?

Rollins and Victorino run a bit but the Phils aren't really a running team. Burrell, Helms and Howard more than offset those guys as far as calling the Phils a "running team".

No, what's "team-crushing" is what you'll see Lastings Milledge put up for the Nats every day while Schneider and Church do their averageish work for the Mets in 2008. Not to mention spirit-crushing. And possibly Omar-crushing.

Look, nobody likes the trade. But we're really getting very worked up over a relatively small issue until we get into how it is representative of a flawed organizational philosophy. I hate the Milledge trade much more for what it represents (the way the Mets systematically devalued Milledge, then got him for less than he was worth) than the actual players.

Church is pretty likely to have as good or better performance when compared to Milledge in 2008.

Schneider, by the way, has hit .254/.325/.389 against right-handed pitching in his career (which is about 3/4 of his PA). With the intentional walks for being a #8 hitter, a .700 OPS isn't that much of a stretch. Conveniently, the Mets have already signed a good-hitting right-handed backup catcher. There is potential for the Mets to sit Schneider vs. left-handed starters and have a fairly decent catching platoon.

Neither of these two players are going to "kill the Mets" in 2008. And odds are low that Milledge himself will do a tremendous amount of damage to the Mets in 2008 as well.

And that's a bad trade I'm talking about. This isn't a life-crushing, Omar-firing, organization-destroying trade.

The problem with using his career stats is that early on he could actually slug around .400. At this point, expecting a .350 slg is a lot...

I can maybe see Church equaling Milledge in 2008 if we're only talking about value at the plate. But he needs a platoon partner, and isn't as good in the field or on the bases. Milledge did nothing but hit last year.

Schneider is a net negative. That's my concern; Omar thinks he's a good player, and he's not. Defense at catcher isn't so important you punt a lineup spot and a young budding star for. There is no way you can twist the numbers to make Schneider look decent or even passable at the plate- he should be a last resort rather than a first. Every time I want to have faith in Omar he does something like this.

And we know how much a single, determined player can do to the Mets in a given season- Pat Burrell, Chipper Jones, Brian Schneider and in the future Lastings Milledge....

Is nobody interested in acquiring Inge and moving him back to catcher?

When Jason Kendall and Brian Schneider are starting Cs...

I think CrosbyBird has it just about right, it was a bad trade but won't kill the team in 2008. Church is a pretty good player, and you could make the same case that Milledge needs a platoon partner against righties, he has been worse against RHP than Church has been against LHP, albeit with a smaller sample size.

Church, FMart, Guerre, and Humber seems like a fair price for Johan. I'd maybe hold out for 2 of the Humber,Pelfrey, Mulvey trio if I were Bill Smith but I'm not sure it's enough to be a deal breaker. I find it interesting that the Twins go from a defense first team to a team with some defensive question marks in the course of 1 offseason. Brendan Harris at 2nd, Mike Lamb at 3rd and someone from Church, Young, Monroe or Cuddyer in CF seems like a significant downgrade from Luis Castillo, Nick Punto and Torrii Hunter last year. With Monroe, Delmon, Kubel, Chruch and Cuddyer though you could end up with some pretty tasty platoon / time shares for the 3 OF spots and DH. I also wouldn't be surprised if this deal goes through (which I doubt) if the Twins wouldn't try to peddle Cuddyer or Kubel for a true centerfielder or a starting pitcher.

Only because this keeps coming up-
Is there anything in Milledge's minor league numbers to indicate that he can't hit righties? It seems strange to conclude that he needs a platoon partner at age 23, unless he's had some extreme platoon split his whole career.

What I'll continue to wonder also is if F-Mart, Milledge, and a couple of pitching prospects gets the deal done. That's another odd thing about the Milledge trade- it was made so early in the offseason that it seems like it handcuffed Omar's ability to shop him for something better. I keep thinking I'm going to wake up and hear that Milledge was found sodomizing a goat or something...then all of the sudden this trade will have made sense, they kept the story quiet as long as possible, but Omar was worried about the effects of having a goat-f*cker in the clubhouse, and wisely dealt him ASAP...

Is there anything in Milledge's minor league numbers to indicate that he can't hit righties? It seems strange to conclude that he needs a platoon partner at age 23, unless he's had some extreme platoon split his whole career.

Milledge is going to hit righties eventually. At times last season, he looked overmatched by quality breaking stuff from righthanders. He is going to make the adjustment but it may take a season before that happens.

Oh wait, the thread is still going, let me contribute again.
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wake me when its over.