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Saturday, August 30, 2008

S.I.: Heyman: Why the Yankees are done

Here are a few answers regarding how they got into this mess:

1. How has Robinson Cano degenerated form one of the best young players in the game to a so-so and seemingly indifferent second baseman? None of the young players on the team lived up to their billing, and that goes for Melky Cabrera, Phil Hughes, Ian Kennedy and Shelley Duncan, as well.

But perhaps no one is a greater enigma than Cano. The dropoff is so severe and significant that one Yankee said, “Just look at [Red Sox second baseman Dustin] Pedroia, and the year he’s having. The difference between him and Cano is the difference between the teams. Pedroia doesn’t have one-quarter the talent of Cano, but he’s outplaying him by a mile.’’ There are two theories about Cano’s decline. One is that he misses Larry Bowa, who was the Yankees third base coach from 2006-07, and the other is that his new $32-million contract made him comfortable.

“No way they should have given Robbie that contract. He’s the last guy who should have gotten a contract like that,’’ one Yankee said. “They never gave a deal like that to Derek Jeter or Bernie Williams or Jorge Posada or Mariano Rivera with so much time to go before free agency. They could have given it to Cano or [Chien-Ming] Wang. They picked the wrong guy.’’

Over-cookingness to Barnald, the Yankee Skiller.

Repoz Posted: August 30, 2008 at 10:52 AM | 68 comment(s)
  Related News: GeneralNY Yankees

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   1. Darren Posted: August 30, 2008 at 10:59 AM (#2922750)
Shorter version: Math.

6 games back in 28 games is a lot.
   2. Darren Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:01 AM (#2922755)
And yes, they should have given the long-term deal to the pitcher who got badly injured this year.
   3. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:04 AM (#2922760)
The team with the $209-million payroll and four locks for the Hall of Fame may yet be capable of a surprise

Jeter, Rodriguez, Rivera, and?
   4. Zuvella! Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:06 AM (#2922761)
Jeter, Rodriguez, Rivera, and?


Pudge
   5. El Hombre 2 MVPs (Le Samourai) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:06 AM (#2922762)
Maybe he thinks Moose is a lock.
   6. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:10 AM (#2922765)
That's cheating a little bit.

[EDIT] Both because he was just acquired and he is the furthest from his HoF performance level.
   7. Zuvella! Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:11 AM (#2922767)
It is, but that's the only person I could think of.
   8. Smiling Joe Hesketh Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:12 AM (#2922770)
Pedroia doesn’t have one-quarter the talent of Cano, but he’s outplaying him by a mile.


God, crap like this drives me nuts. We get it, short white dudes can't have talent. It's so wrong headed and stupid and cliched I cannot imagine writers haven't gotten sick of this by now. I know it's just a quote, but still, it's silly to keep repeating the fallacy.

I know Heyman's a NY writer so he's not to be expected to know this off the top of his head, but there haven't been any stories in the Boston media about how hard-working Pedroia is or any of that. He shows up at the same time as the rest of his teammates and puts in the same work they do. The only thing that gets reported is his amusing running of the mouth and his great season.
   9. Zuvella! Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:15 AM (#2922774)
Well, Pedroia has a more talented brain obviously. He has all that grit, desire and intelligence up there. Cano needed to get that grit, desire and intelligence from Larry Bowa, who probably wasn't a very talented athlete in his day.
   10. El Hombre 2 MVPs (Le Samourai) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:16 AM (#2922778)
Oh yeah, Pudge plays for the Yankees now. Huh.
   11. Bob "Jugement" Dernier Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:17 AM (#2922780)
Hey, I want to see some stories about "Why the Rangers are done." Equal time, here.
   12. Zuvella! Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:18 AM (#2922784)
The Rangers are done because Mark Messier left the organization a decade ago.
   13. Gamingboy Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:40 AM (#2922803)
four locks for the Hall of Fame may yet be capable of a surprise


Because the 1988 Orioles were so capable with Eddie Murray and Cal Ripken. Fine, that's only two players. And the supporting players (esp. the Pitching) were some of the worst in the history of Baseball. But still, further proof HOFers don't mean squat without help.
   14. Fancy Pants Handle Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:43 AM (#2922806)
I love all the: "One Yankee said"
   15. Ryan Jones Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:46 AM (#2922809)
No one has pointed out that Shelley Duncan is referred to as a "young" player? Christ, he's four years older than a lot of failed prospects. how can anyone consider this guy to be young?
   16. Bob "Jugement" Dernier Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:50 AM (#2922815)
Gamingboy, I'd guess that four Hall of Famers on a team going nowhere isn't particularly rare. Off the top of my head I can think of the 1970 Braves, with Aaron, Cepeda, Niekro, and Wilhelm, all pretty good that year (Niekro went only 12-18, but threw 230 innings at a 101 ERA+; the rest were excellent). The team went 76-86.
   17. Hello Rusty Kuntz, Goodbye Rusty Cars Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:51 AM (#2922818)
God, crap like this drives me nuts. We get it, short white dudes can't have talent.


Who was more gritty- Mel Ott or Hack Wilson?
   18. Monty Posted: August 30, 2008 at 12:19 PM (#2922827)
Once a player is a lock for the Hall of Fame, the odds are that his best years are behind him, right?
   19. Repoz Posted: August 30, 2008 at 12:30 PM (#2922832)
No one has pointed out that Shelley Duncan is referred to as a "young" player? Christ, he's four years older than a lot of failed prospects. how can anyone consider this guy to be young?

Hell, George Grande Mal and Gary Lucas were yapping about 28-yr old Ryan Hanigan being a big part of the Cincy youth movement.
   20. TWO!-OH!-OH!-OH! CLAP!-CLAP!-CLAP!CLAP!CLAP! Posted: August 30, 2008 at 12:32 PM (#2922834)
If I've learned anything the last few years, it's not to dance on the grave of a Yankees team until they are mathematically eliminated.

And even that might be too soon.
   21. Eamus Catuli Posted: August 30, 2008 at 12:35 PM (#2922836)
Gamingboy, I'd guess that four Hall of Famers on a team going nowhere isn't particularly rare. Off the top of my head I can think of the 1970 Braves, with Aaron, Cepeda, Niekro, and Wilhelm, all pretty good that year (Niekro went only 12-18, but threw 230 innings at a 101 ERA+; the rest were excellent). The team went 76-86.

The 1966 Cubs team had 3 HOFers (plus Santo, who should be), plus a Hall of Fame manager in Durocher, and lost 103 games.
   22. APNY Posted: August 30, 2008 at 12:40 PM (#2922840)
None of the young players have live up to there billing? NONE?!
   23. Moscow Hiding In The Shadows Posted: August 30, 2008 at 12:47 PM (#2922842)
four locks for the Hall of Fame may yet be capable of a surprise


Because the 1988 Orioles were so capable with Eddie Murray and Cal Ripken. Fine, that's only two players. And the supporting players (esp. the Pitching) were some of the worst in the history of Baseball. But still, further proof HOFers don't mean squat without help.


Two years before I got to my DC high school, the basketball team had a future first round NBA pick and another future ACC starter. And won three games. And when the first guy transferred to another school the next year, he was replaced with a future Celtic who was featured in commercials with Bill Russell. And they still won only three games.
   24. Leroy Kincaid Posted: August 30, 2008 at 12:48 PM (#2922845)
Pedroia is white? I thought he was Hispanic.
   25. PJ Martinez Posted: August 30, 2008 at 12:54 PM (#2922848)
Pedroia is white? I thought he was Hispanic.

National League fan, I take it?

Perhaps there should be a Latino version of the Reggie Cleveland All-Stars. Then again, I'm not sure that version could field a whole squad. Nominees?
   26. konaforever Posted: August 30, 2008 at 12:57 PM (#2922850)
If I've learned anything the last few years, it's not to dance on the grave of a Yankees team until they are mathematically eliminated.

And even that might be too soon.


How about when the playoffs start and the Yankees are sitting at home watching it? Is that still too soon?
   27. The Milton Bradley Effect (Voxter) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 01:01 PM (#2922855)
Cano was unbelievably bad in April. Other than that, he's been the same dude he always was, with some minor noise in his numbers. To paraphrase Veronica Mars, these are the flukes.
   28. Leroy Kincaid Posted: August 30, 2008 at 01:02 PM (#2922856)
National League fan, I take it?


Nope. Yankee fan. His last name sounds Hispanic. Guess it could be Italian. Portuguese? According to Wikipedia:

Pedroia has recently endorsed a brand of salsa under the name of "Pedroia's" including: Black bean, mild, spicy, and 'muy caliente'.

Hmmmm...
   29. JoeC Posted: August 30, 2008 at 01:11 PM (#2922861)
None of the young players have live up to their billing? NONE?!


161 ERA+, 10.8 K/9, blah, blah. Where is he when the Yankees need him now, huh? Slacker.
   30. Epitome Posted: August 30, 2008 at 01:11 PM (#2922863)
How good were Cano and Pedroia considered as prospects relatively?

It seems that Pedroia is only hitting better for average and power, getting on base more, playing better defense and running the bases better. Other than that I'd give Cano the edge.
   31. Brian White Posted: August 30, 2008 at 01:28 PM (#2922878)
How good were Cano and Pedroia considered as prospects relatively?

Neither of them ever made BA's top 100 prospects.
   32. John DiFool2 Posted: August 30, 2008 at 02:19 PM (#2922908)
That's BS, I'm pretty sure Pedroia was in the Top 30 in the year leading up to his becoming the full-time 2B in '07.
   33. TWO!-OH!-OH!-OH! CLAP!-CLAP!-CLAP!CLAP!CLAP! Posted: August 30, 2008 at 02:31 PM (#2922913)
How about when the playoffs start and the Yankees are sitting at home watching it? Is that still too soon?

Best. Playoffs. Ever.

My wife and I met during October 1996... just when the Yankee championship run was starting and her learning what an ass I can be when anything good happens to them. Through moves, kids, job changes, and more, one constant as long as we've been together has been me cursing the Yankees well into October.

I sure hope we're still married on Opening Day 2009.
   34. 1k5v3L Posted: August 30, 2008 at 02:32 PM (#2922914)
That's BS, I'm pretty sure Pedroia was in the Top 30 in the year leading up to his becoming the full-time 2B in '07.
Top 30 shortest prospects in the game, you mean

BA top 100 prospects, going back to 1992

Pedroia was 77th on the 2006 list; Cano was never on BA's top 100 list.
Of course, Cano is $30m+ richer right now
   35. RB in NYC (Now with Christmas Spirit!) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 02:47 PM (#2922925)
27. Greg Maddox Ford (Voxter) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 01:01 PM (#2922855)
Cano was unbelievably bad in April. Other than that, he's been the same dude he always was, with some minor noise in his numbers. To paraphrase Veronica Mars, these are the flukes.
This
   36. winnipegwhip Posted: August 30, 2008 at 02:47 PM (#2922926)
Through moves, kids, job changes, and more, one constant as long as we've been together has been me cursing the Yankees well into October.


Job changes?

...here's Tom. This is his first day."

"I am really psyched to be here. Are you guys ready to rent some cawhs?"

I didn't know you worked at Avis.
   37. The Milton Bradley Effect (Voxter) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 02:53 PM (#2922930)
35. RB in NYC (Now a Man with Options! Maybe!) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 02:47 PM (#2922925)

27. Greg Maddox Ford (Voxter) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 01:01 PM (#2922855)
Cano was unbelievably bad in April. Other than that, he's been the same dude he always was, with some minor noise in his numbers. To paraphrase Veronica Mars, these are the flukes.


This


I'm taking this as tacit endorsement of everything I said. Or a ringing condemnation. Haven't decided.
   38. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 30, 2008 at 02:53 PM (#2922931)

27. Greg Maddox Ford (Voxter) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 01:01 PM (#2922855)
Cano was unbelievably bad in April. Other than that, he's been the same dude he always was, with some minor noise in his numbers. To paraphrase Veronica Mars, these are the flukes.


YAY FOR VERONICA REFERENCE!
   39. 1k5v3L Posted: August 30, 2008 at 02:57 PM (#2922935)
To put numbers to Voxter's post, on May 1st, Cano's line at .151/.211/.236
Since then, Cano's line has been .301/.333/.455/.788 OPS, with 24 doubles, 10 homers in 413 AB

Ironically, on May 1st, 2007, Pedroia's line was .172/.294/.224, and Kevin was a mental mess
From May 1st on, Pedroia's line was .333/.389/.467/.856 OPS, with 36 doubles, 8 homers in 516 AB

Pedroia won ROY (admittedly in a really weak rookie class), but Cano is crucified for NYY's problems. Not saying Cano's poor April didn't hurt the team, but give the guy a break
   40. The Milton Bradley Effect (Voxter) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 02:58 PM (#2922936)
YAY FOR VERONICA REFERENCE!


I'm gonna keep trotting those out until Kristen Bell & I are both old and craggy.
   41. kevin Posted: August 30, 2008 at 03:01 PM (#2922939)
How good were Cano and Pedroia considered as prospects relatively?


Well, if you asked Yankee fans, they would have told you that Cano = Hornsby and Pedroia = Patek.

Of course, the rest of us who could interpret MLEs knew that Pedroia was going to crush Cano and equally so, we were right. There isn't a phase of the game that Pedroia doesn't kick Cano's tail on.
   42. The Milton Bradley Effect (Voxter) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 03:10 PM (#2922945)
My memory is that a lot of scouts didn't like either of them very much, Pedroia because he was short and old (for a prospect), Cano because he wasn't fast and had never really played shortstop. PECOTA loved Pedroia. I don't remember what it thought of Cano, but probably not much, because he wasn't as good in the minors as he has been in the majors, for the most part. Goldstein at BP spent a lot of time using Pedroia as a proxy in his anti-prospects-by-PECOTA crusade, only to end up with mud all over his face, which was hilarious.
   43. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 30, 2008 at 03:18 PM (#2922949)
SG ran some numbers and based on his LD%, you would expect Cano's #s to be right around where he was projected at. He's hit the ball hard, right at some people and his #'s have suffered. His defense looks bad because he hurt himself and had a lousy two weeks that knocked something close to ten runs off his fielding #s. He's not having a good year, but there's little evidence that he's collapsed as a player.
   44. PJ Martinez Posted: August 30, 2008 at 03:26 PM (#2922952)
His last name sounds Hispanic. Guess it could be Italian. Portuguese?

According to , Pedroia's last name is indeed Portuguese. No idea if that's accurate, but seems plausible.
   45. The Clarence Thomas of BTF (scott) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 03:29 PM (#2922955)
Pedroia is actually supremely talented when it comes to hand-eye coordination. Combined with a very quick swing, it turns him into a doubles machine. If he wasn't so freakishly good at making contact, there's no way he could be as good a hitter as he is. Watching him with that huge swing of his you'd think he was striking out twice or three times as much as he actually does. He just doesn't look like a typical ballplayer, and he can look like a little kid out there when he doesn't have a beard, so he gets the David Eckstein "scrappy honky" treatment.
   46. Chase Utley, America's Favorite Robot (Joey Belle) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 03:56 PM (#2922961)
Well, if you asked Yankee fans, they would have told you that Cano = Hornsby and Pedroia = Patek.


Well, if you asked kevin, he would have told you Pedroia > Hornsby and Cano = dogshit.
   47. Never Thought of Listach as a Sexual Reference Posted: August 30, 2008 at 04:15 PM (#2922975)
Pedroia is actually supremely talented when it comes to hand-eye coordination. Combined with a very quick swing, it turns him into a doubles machine. If he wasn't so freakishly good at making contact, there's no way he could be as good a hitter as he is. Watching him with that huge swing of his you'd think he was striking out twice or three times as much as he actually does. He just doesn't look like a typical ballplayer, and he can look like a little kid out there when he doesn't have a beard, so he gets the David Eckstein "scrappy honky" treatment.


I confess, the only player who's surprised me more offensively this year has been Melvin Mora. But Pedroia does seem legit, despite not having the kind of hustling intensity a player of his size and ethnicity would seemingly require to make it in the bigs.
   48. John DiFool2 Posted: August 30, 2008 at 04:22 PM (#2922978)
He's not having a good year, but there's little evidence that he's collapsed as a player.


The biggest difference of course is that Pedroia apparently is developing as a hitter, while Cano has regressed. .301/.333/.455/.788 isn't bad but it ain't great, esp. compared to what he did in '06. I suggested oh about a year ago that Pedroia would eventually develop 20 HR type power (given his swing plane and swing speed), which was roundly ridiculed in these here parts by certain parties.
   49. Mike Webber Posted: August 30, 2008 at 04:35 PM (#2922982)
the only player who's surprised me more offensively this year has been Melvin Mora


Why did Mora surprise you so much? Did you just think he was done? Hey he is 36, it wouldn't be a crazy idea by any means. But he isn't way out over his skis, like say Ryan Ludwick.
   50. A Random 8-Year-Old Eskimo Posted: August 30, 2008 at 04:37 PM (#2922985)
Kristen Bell will never get old and craggy. Never.
   51. John DiFool2 Posted: August 30, 2008 at 04:40 PM (#2922987)
But Pedroia does seem legit, despite not having the kind of hustling intensity a player of his size and ethnicity would seemingly require to make it in the bigs.


I assume this is a whoosh or something?
   52. Never Thought of Listach as a Sexual Reference Posted: August 30, 2008 at 04:48 PM (#2922994)

Why did Mora surprise you so much? Did you just think he was done? Hey he is 36, it wouldn't be a crazy idea by any means. But he isn't way out over his skis, like say Ryan Ludwick.


He had OPS+ of 91 and 98 the last two years, and was at:
.233 .301 .387 going into the All-Star Break.

Mora has been my favorite player for years, from the moment he popped out five kids, decided he needed to hit home runs, and belted 19 of 'em. I was one of the people chanting "Pay the man." I even enjoy his base-running. But I remembered saying to my dad, maybe he's a little older than 36...
   53. Never Thought of Listach as a Sexual Reference Posted: August 30, 2008 at 04:51 PM (#2922997)
I assume this is a whoosh or something?


... or something. I think last year, after Daniel Cabrera got mad and threw at the kid's head, the Baltimore media did try to apply an undersized caucasian template to Pedroia's career. You know, easier to go with assumptions than do actual reporting.
   54. Mets Fan Posted: August 30, 2008 at 05:48 PM (#2923030)
The 2003 Mets had Glavine, Piazza, Alomar, Reyes, Cone, and John Franco.

*ducks*
   55. kevin Posted: August 30, 2008 at 06:16 PM (#2923034)
Well, if you asked kevin, he would have told you Pedroia > Hornsby and Cano = dogshit.


You got the second part right. On both counts.
   56. Swoboda is freedom Posted: August 30, 2008 at 06:52 PM (#2923045)
Kristen Bell will never get old and craggy. Never.

I assume that you either advocating her to get plastic surgery or planning to kill her. I will alert her security people.
   57. The Milton Bradley Effect (Voxter) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 07:05 PM (#2923055)
I assume that you either advocating her to get plastic surgery or planning to kill her. I will alert her security people.


Have you seen Dame Helen Mirren lately? She could get lucky.
   58. kevin Posted: August 30, 2008 at 09:50 PM (#2923221)
Pedroia was 4-4 tonight and scored 2 runs. He's now scored 106 and we aren't even into Sept. yet.

Really, he should be getting some MVP consideration.
   59. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: August 30, 2008 at 10:29 PM (#2923273)
Not sure what the big deal with Helen Mirren is. Was she hot when she was young?
   60. Exploring Leftist Conservatism since 2008 (ark..) Posted: August 30, 2008 at 11:06 PM (#2923306)
Ironically, on May 1st, 2007, Pedroia's line was .172/.294/.224, and Kevin was a mental mess


What am I missing?
   61. mashimaro Posted: August 31, 2008 at 03:01 AM (#2923376)
Yankee and Red Sox prospects are over-hyped.
   62. You can't lose with Randy Winn, says Flynn Posted: August 31, 2008 at 04:09 AM (#2923386)
Pedroia is a Portuguese name. Of course, the Portuguese aren't Hispanic.
   63. vortex of dissipation Posted: August 31, 2008 at 04:25 AM (#2923388)
Not sure what the big deal with Helen Mirren is. Was she hot when she was young?


Never seen her threesome scene in Caligula, I take it?
   64. kevin Posted: August 31, 2008 at 08:20 AM (#2923395)
I can understand why people like Helen Mirren. She's very aggreeable to taking her clothes off in films.


But she's not really my cup of tea, even when she was younger and a little more firmed up.
   65. scareduck Posted: August 31, 2008 at 09:23 AM (#2923411)
But she's not really my cup of tea, even when she was younger and a little more firmed up.

She just needs some adhesive help, is all.
   66. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: August 31, 2008 at 12:02 PM (#2923467)
Pedroia because he was short and old

He was 21 at AAA and 20 at AA. Part of this is his August birthdate, but even if you bump up his age by a year, he was not old.
   67. kevin Posted: August 31, 2008 at 12:17 PM (#2923472)
What am I missing?


Only that levksi went off his meds without telling anyone, arky. I knew Pedroia would turn it around and kept telling everyone that then.
   68. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: August 31, 2008 at 01:01 PM (#2923494)
That should be 22 and 21 for Pedroia.
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