I don't think anyone is saying that ARod doesn't have some pretty big faults or that he's having a good season. The issue is whether the criticism is logical and proportional.


What are you nuts? A-Rod's having a great season. Seriously.

Faults? He's vain, sure. He shouldn't have been so quick to bad mouth Jeter years ago (even if he may have been right and even if I would be livid too that people actually said carp like "count the rings" when erroneously saying Jeter was better than him). He shouldn't have pushed Mussina et al. under the buss in this article.

But I can't believe he's got serious faults and is having such a bad year. He's having a subpar year for him, but he's still an allstar.

Captain Famous blows him off

Huck says he looked through Jeter says he said "ok". I don't see any reason to call one a lair.

He's been kicking ass in a month when the pennat race is over. A-Rod sucked when it mattered this year. I'm not saying I don't like him on my team, but he was letting them down. This was obvious to ANYONE who watched the yankees with any regularity this year. My point about Giambi was that if someone who is almost universally respected by friend and foe alike, is telling that he needs to figure out, we should listen. A-Rod hiding behind "I've got 116 RBIs" is total crap. Arguments made my primates (Dr. Memory) such as "I wish my team has a 900ops third baseman" are completely irrelevant. In much the same way as it took this board years to even remotely acknowledge that Bonds was a jerk, it's like people on this board are resisting the idea that A-Rod might not be the most likeable guy. Maybe Giambi shouldn't have gone public with his thoughts, but that doesn't mean he's a supreme jerk and that his comments have no merit.


There's so much wrong here that I can barely keep it all straight.

#1. The Rod's joking post included a slam on RBIs.
#2. The whole doesn't do it when it matters carp was researched and refuted. Look it up rather than bleat untruths. Lazy.
#3. The reigning MVP is hitting very well this year. That isn't letting anyone down. That's garbage.
#4. Tossing aside the numbers for a 3B so flippantly? Crap. Pure crap.
#5. Giambi is one of the few people for whom no positive test that I know about exist whom I am convinced was a juicer. Forget that while you're pimping him and hating Bonds?
#6. Let me guess: you'd react as this board supposedly would if I said that Jeter was less than a saint.

Clearly he's still having a very good season relative to the other 3b around baseball.

Rodriguez: .286/.385/.517
Third baseman A: .338/.429/.572
Third baseman B: .308/.391/.529
Third baseman C: .291/.352/.554
Third baseman D: .302/.374/.531
Third baseman E: .328/.402/.559

There are plenty of third basemen who are just as good as A-Rod, if not better. Somehow, when the Yankees traded for him, I doubt they were saying, "Yay! We got someone who can measure up with Garrett Atkins [who is Third Baseman E up there]!"


Oh good Lord. Remember when I touted Chris Woodward over Jeter because their numbers looked very similar for one year and Jeter was paid so much.

The difference is replication: what are they all going to look like in a year, in 5 years?

You take Atkins. I'll take A-Rod. I've made this logical error here myself.

I'm not surprised a Red Sox fan thinks the Yankees have handled it badly.

Bzzt. :)

My team plays much closer, specifically, in the same city as Yankee Stadium.


But I don't think they have. The problem is that Alex is a very fragile individual with some personality problems. Remember he had similar problems with his teammates and a much worse problem with his manager when he was in Texas. Alex is either going to work out here in New York or he is not. Its up to him. His teammates and manager can help to a point, but a player whom the Primates tout as one of the greatest players of all time has to be able to handle stress and situations.

In my opinion, the role of captain includes a responsibility to identify situations that are detrimental to a teammate, to work with that teammate to fix the problem, and to shield that teammate from the media's inevitable and detrimental fallout.

Jeter could very easily have said something like:

"Alex Rodriguez is a great player and a consummate professional. All of us know that he's going to figure out what he's struggling with and come back to being the great player he's been his whole career. He's a big part of what makes this team successful."

It costs him nothing, and it potentially goes a long way in helping the public image of A-Rod; Jeter clearly has the ears of the media and Yankee fans, and if he actively supports A-Rod, it can at worst do nothing.

Jeter owes no duty to A-Rod to help him with the media, but I suggest that Jeter owes a duty to the Yankees (and even more of a duty than a regular teammate, by virtue of his captaincy) to help A-Rod with the media.

Whether A-Rod is the worst teammate in baseball history, or a terrible human being, or washed up as a player, it does not serve the interest of the Yankees for the captain to be conspicuous in his lack of support. It is not an anti-Jeter-love backlash to criticize him for his failing in this regard. He did a crappy job in this very specific role in a between-the-lines MVP-caliber season.

Jeter is having an MVP year to spite A-Rod.


Numerically, is Jeter even a superior mvp candidate than Arod?

Seriously.

Look, all of the first reports out of that story were that Huckaby went to the visitor's clubhouse to apologize and Jeter refused to see him.

Where's the source on the other chain of events? This would raise Jeter's standing with me yet again (as has his 400+ OBP again this year and his turning himself into a mediocre defender).

Could someone better at working the archives link to some of the many stories that prove that A-Rod is no worse in close and late situations than in others? That his numbers are comparable to other big star in those situations? That he performs admirably in the playoffs?

Remember when Simmons was pimping Ortiz over Arod last year for MVP and broke out those claims? People responded with research pretty fast to show how little merit that had.

crosby bird -

well said

The difference is replication: what are they all going to look like in a year, in 5 years?

I would guess Rodriguez is still going to be in the middle of that pack in one year. I would further guess that he's going to be toward the bottom of that pack in five years.

Alex Rodriguez is not a young ballplayer. And while he's not Cal Ripken, he has been worked pretty hard over the course of his career, with six years of at least 160 ballgames. There's a very good chance that he's in his decline phase already. That doesn't make him less than an All-Star player right now, but at a similar point of his career, Ripken was pretty much through as an elite player.

Middle infielders who have been worked as hard as A-Rod tend to start petering off in their early 30s, especially the power-hitting ones. It happened to Ripken, it happened to Joe Morgan, it happened to Ryne Sandberg, it happened to Alan Trammell, it happened to Ernie Banks. Maybe the move to third will help Rodriguez age better than those guys, but moving off short didn't help Banks much.

Numerically, is Jeter even a superior mvp candidate than Arod?

Seriously.

Wow, are you ever going to have a hissy fit when the MVP vote tallies are announced.

I agree that ARod gets a bad rap, but anyone who thinks that he's been more valuable than Jeter this year must have spent the entire season following either the Astros or the Harlem Globetrotters.

Arod has a higher ledge from which to fall than those guys..

Everyone has become so wrapped up in their A-Rod defense and Jeter attack that they've completely lost perspective.

Well, I want to emphasize that for me, it's NOT about defending A-Rod, at all. I don't think he comes off well, either. This is a guy who appears almost terminally unable or unwilling to actually relate to his teammates in a constructive way, at least if it means he has to adjust even a little bit.

But Jeter is a fascinating character in all this, too. This is a man with a public image that is wrapped enormously around the notion of being Mr. Team. And I think, largely, it is justified. Many of us scoff at the "Captain Intangibles" stuff (and it is hugely overdone), but it isn't meaningless. He does play hurt, and he does have leadership qualities, and he has risen to the defense of teammates. I suspect that Derek Jeter really IS fixated on winning and team success, and more power to him for that fixation.

Which, to me, makes his inability or unwillingness to act in a way consistent with that image, with that record, in THIS instance, utterly fascinating. His relationship with A-Rod is unique in Jeter's experience, and it is leading him, IMHO, to act completely differently -- ironically, in a fashion that has this year been harmful to the team and its chances of winning. As it happens, the Yankees have done just fine, thank you. So any critique of Jeter in all this has to reckon with that bottom line. But I nevertheless think it's fair to wonder and remark on and converse about the very different Jeter we see when it's A-Rod.

That's not the same as defending A-Rod, at least not for me. Others can speak for themselves.

D. Jeter = J. DiMaggio

Discuss.

This guy thinks you're on point.

Numerically, is Jeter even a superior mvp candidate than A-Rod?

Seriously.

Jeter will be one of the top couple of vote getters in the AL MVP race for obvious reasons. I could personally advance reasonable arguments both for and against his winning (I'm actually kind of partial to Joe Mauer since I have not seen any .340 hitting catchers in my lifetime), although A-Rod will not get one vote. But we have people out here who claim to be knowledgeable about baseball saying, and seemingly believing that Alex is as good or better a candidate. Can you imagine advancing that 'viewpoint' to any of the Yankees themselves? Its good for a laugh, I guess. Its rotisserie baseball, the triumph of looking at OPS as opposed to actually paying attention to what is really happening on the field.

D. Jeter = J. DiMaggio


I was thinking that on the train on the way home from work. I hope Jetes doesn't have one of those tell all bios that ruin his image for the future middle aged woman that were 12 years old once.

But we have people out here who claim to be knowledgeable about baseball saying, and seemingly believing that Alex is as good or better a candidate. Can you imagine advancing that 'viewpoint' to any of the Yankees themselves? Its good for a laugh, I guess.

But... you don't know how they'd react! You're just assuming!

I certainly have yet to hear anyone involved in baseball in any capacity make such an assertion. And Verducci's article appears to gives pretty good insights into the thought process of some of the Yankees. Assumuing? Sure I am assuming. I'm also assuming that the sun will rise tomorrow morning. And that Miguel Cairo will not win the MVP. Why? Intelligence guided by experience.

A-Rod=Meursault

He's been kicking ass in a month when the pennat race is over. A-Rod sucked when it mattered this year. I'm not saying I don't like him on my team, but he was letting them down. This was obvious to ANYONE who watched the yankees with any regularity this year. My point about Giambi was that if someone who is almost universally respected by friend and foe alike, is telling that he needs to figure out, we should listen. A-Rod hiding behind "I've got 116 RBIs" is total crap. Arguments made my primates (Dr. Memory) such as "I wish my team has a 900ops third baseman" are completely irrelevant. In much the same way as it took this board years to even remotely acknowledge that Bonds was a jerk, it's like people on this board are resisting the idea that A-Rod might not be the most likeable guy. Maybe Giambi shouldn't have gone public with his thoughts, but that doesn't mean he's a supreme jerk and that his comments have no merit.


There's so much wrong here that I can barely keep it all straight.

#1. The Rod's joking post included a slam on RBIs.
#2. The whole doesn't do it when it matters carp was researched and refuted. Look it up rather than bleat untruths. Lazy.
#3. The reigning MVP is hitting very well this year. That isn't letting anyone down. That's garbage.
#4. Tossing aside the numbers for a 3B so flippantly? Crap. Pure crap.
#5. Giambi is one of the few people for whom no positive test that I know about exist whom I am convinced was a juicer. Forget that while you're pimping him and hating Bonds?
#6. Let me guess: you'd react as this board supposedly would if I said that Jeter was less than a saint.

#1 I'm referring to A-Rod's reference of what his numbers at year end would be. Read my earlier post. Lazy.
#2 close and late, look up the numbers, look at his numbers during june-august. by his standards, he was abysmal.
#3 He's hitting well relative to his peers. by his standards, the expectations toward him and his salary, he has been sub-par.
#4 I don't even know what you're saying here.
#5 I actually used to love Bonds, have never been a huge Giambi fan, but the issue of Giambi juicing is COMPLETELY irrelevant as to whether A-Rod handled his struggles in a manner that ticked off his teammates. I'm simply pointing out that this board has turned as much toward fanboyism as the mainstream fans. People have decided on favorites, and no matter what evidence comes up to the contrary (Bonds doing roids, A-Rod being a prick etc), people choose to ignore it.
#6 I have never been a Jeter fan. Read my earlier posts. Lazy.

Tuttle, I have no idea who you are, but I apologize if my earlier post was at odds with your mancrush on A-Rod.

Primates love to point to his OPS as if that stat is the be and end all of winning baseball - Its obviously important, but the A-Rod supporters out here conveniently ignore the horrible close and late performance, the strikeouts, the doubleplays, the poor fielding, and the utterly ridiculous stat where he was last in the American League at plating runners from third base with less than two outs).

The problem with you Jeter fetishists is that even when you get to pick the battlefield for the comparison, your guy still looks worse.

Close and late, Jeter v. A-Rod over the past 5 years by OPS:

2002: Jeter - .663 Rodriguez - .921
2003: Jeter - .571 Rodriguez - 1.112
2004: Jeter - .883 Rodriguez - .797
2005: Jeter - .753 Rodriguez - .938
2006: Jeter - .876 Rodriguez - .670

That's three seasons where A-Rod was better than anything Jeter has done in the past five years close and late. Jeter has come in worst than A-Rod's absolute worst - a season so bad that he apparently needs the intervention of noted body language interpreter Jason Giambi - on two occasions. I must have missed the stories in SI filled with anonymous quotes from Yankees talking about how Jeter is too worried about his stats and it's the winning that matters.

Runners on third with less than two outs, RBI/AB

2002: Jeter - 26/35 Rodriguez - 27/32
2003: Jeter - 13/17 Rodriguez - 21/25
2004: Jeter - 13/27 Rodriguez - 31/30
2005: Jeter - 23/27 Rodriguez - 20/27
2006: Jeter - 33/36 Rodriguez - 29/45 (I have a hard time believing that this is worst in the majors)

First of all, I think that this is a pretty useless stat. A-Rod has trumped Jeter three times in it though.

Even the double plays are close. A-Rod strikes out more, sure. He also hits a #### of a lot more homers.

The point of this: this season aside, where I think that it may well be in A-Rod's head, if you'd prefer Jeter at the plate over A-Rod when it's close and late, you're an idiot.

Jeter has plenty of numbers on his side anyway

Basically any of the ones that matter.

He's been a better hitter; he plays a position where offense is more scarce; he's played better defense; he gets clutch bonus points this year. I think a lot of the #### A-Rod gets is retarded, but there's absolutely no way someone who looks at the nubers, let alone watches the games as well, would pick A-Rod as MVP this year.

(I'm actually kind of partial to Joe Mauer since I have not seen any .340 hitting catchers in my lifetime)

So you're eight years old?

To be fair, Piazza did get jobbed. Jeter and Mauer are a lot closer in value than Piazza and Walker (and everyone else) in 1997.

Re the Michael Jackson vibe: I have noticed A-Rod only wears a glove on one hand in the field. Hmmmm

RDF ... MBS ...etc.

Best Regards

John

Jeter will be one of the top couple of vote getters in the AL MVP race for obvious reasons. I could personally advance reasonable arguments both for and against his winning (I'm actually kind of partial to Joe Mauer since I have not seen any .340 hitting catchers in my lifetime), although A-Rod will not get one vote. But we have people out here who claim to be knowledgeable about baseball saying, and seemingly believing that Alex is as good or better a candidate. Can you imagine advancing that 'viewpoint' to any of the Yankees themselves? Its good for a laugh, I guess. Its rotisserie baseball, the triumph of looking at OPS as opposed to actually paying attention to what is really happening on the field.

Convince me. Here, you've done nothing but say Jeter is more popular.

This whole thread has a 2001 vibe to it. That's not a compliment, Deacon and Toilet.

Convince me.

Jeter has created 69.1 runs above a replacement SS; Alex has created 49.1 above a replacement 3B.

Jeter has created 47.8 runs above an average SS; Alex has created 23.6 above an average 3B.

Jeter has created 39.9 runs above an average hitter; Alex has 29.3 runs above an average hitter.

Using SG's fielding runs based off of ZR:

Jeter has been 4 runs below an average SS; Alex has been 6 runs below an average 3B.

It's not even close between the two.

Well, Mauer and Morneau are the Yankee MVPs on this night at least. Congrats to the Yankee fans.

gotta love how tuttle accuses others of being "lazy" and then asks someone else to back up his claims.

First:

#2. The whole doesn't do it when it matters carp was researched and refuted. Look it up rather than bleat untruths. Lazy.

followed by:

Could someone better at working the archives link to some of the many stories that prove that A-Rod is no worse in close and late situations than in others? That his numbers are comparable to other big star in those situations? That he performs admirably in the playoffs?

Remember when Simmons was pimping Ortiz over Arod last year for MVP and broke out those claims? People responded with research pretty fast to show how little merit that had.

Tuttle, I'm not really sure why you chose to come out guns blazing and be condescending, but it's pretty damn obnoxious. I apologize if my follow-up comments were similarly out of line.

have I, or anyone for that matter, ever claimed that jeter has been a more clutch player over the course of his career? I certainly haven't. who would I rather have on my team? A-Rod. Who is the inner circle hall-of-famer? A-Rod. All of this stuff, while interesting, is completely irrelevant to the article that was posted and the point that most people are trying to make. Which is that for some reason, A-Rod has behaved in a way that has upset both his teammates and Manager. Maybe everyone else is just "jealous" because they aren't as good as him. Or maybe we could even acknowledge that some of the people who have had these complaints are well-respected within the Yankee clubhouse and around baseball, and give their comments some weight. Yes, we all know Giambi did steroids and is a cheater, but I don't think anyone here has ever heard anyone say something negative about the way Giambi conducts himself in the clubhouse or on a team. The fact that he has maintained the respect of his peers despite being involved in the scandel says something in my eyes. And please, no

And please, no

Don't be ridiculous, they couldn't hit an elephant at this dist---

"well that says more about major leaguers than anything else" retorts. A really poor decision when you're in your late 20s, early 30s does not mean your opinions should be discounted for life.

sorry....continued:


"well that says more about major leaguers than anything else" retorts. A really poor decision when you're in your late 20s, early 30s does not mean your opinions should be discounted for life." sort of comments

Incompetent does not equal lazy.

I think a lot of us here defend ARod because of our obsession with numbers to the exclusion of all else, but perhaps a little of the defense has to do that we see ARod as a fellow social misfit.

I've always seen ARod as a phony, as a person more concerned about image than being real, or at least as real as a public personna can be, but events in New York have revealed why ARod has always been so concerned about how he is presented -- because, at heart, he does not fit the social milieu he finds himself in.

The difference with the Yanks is that now he not only doesn't fit in with his fellow players, he doesn't fit New Yorkers image of a ballplayer, "a true Yankee".

"Phony" never quite fit as an accurate description. \"#####\" comes much closer. ARod is not a stand-up guy, a guy you can count on when the going gets tough. He's going to fall apart in the clutch, tears will flow, and then he'll try to hide from any responsibility for his lack of performance.

He will definitely get the chance to shed these labels, to rise to the occasion, to live long and prosper in his current environment.

But my bet is that he'll soon tuck his tail and flee the Apple, confirming his status as a baseball eunuch, a guy who looks good on paper or when he's swinging a hot bat in a relatively meaningless game, but not a guy you want on your side after you get a look under the robe.

I was actually referring to the part of the article where he says if I finish with 125 rbi's then god's been good to me.

You mean the part where he shows perspective?

***

The thing I find offensive in this drama is the implication that a slumping player has to demonstrate some kind of anger in order to convince people that he cares. Hell, just a few weeks ago John Wooden was praising Jeter for keeping an even temper during good times and bad. I consider keeping an even keel a strength, not a sign of weakness.

Now, if A-Rod weren't working hard to get out of the slump, that would be one thing. But the indications from this article are that he worked hard, indeed, and perhaps too hard.

So, assuming that's all reported correctly, I find the notion that A-Rod has to outwardly react to a slump in the way Jason Giambi thinks he should to be a bit distasteful.

***

It seems clear that A-Rod is held to standards that most people are not. Behold this passage:

What bothered Torre most was Rodriguez's seeming obliviousness to how badly he was playing. In June, for instance, hitting coach Don Mattingly ordered Rodriguez into the cage and sternly lectured him on the flaws in his swing, which Mattingly thought A-Rod had been unwilling to address. "An intervention," Mattingly called it. "He got to a pretty good point with [his swing], but it lasted only a few days and he went right back to where he was."

When you break this down, it's a bit mind-boggling. The thesis is, "A-Rod is oblivious to his struggles." The evidence is, "A-Rod made some improvements, but then after a few days they went away."

That's not evidence of obliviousness, that's evidence of struggle. That's evidence that you go to him and point out to him that he's slipping back into the wrong mechanics. To say that's evidence of obliviousness ... that's saying that he has no excuse for struggling, inferring that all he had to do to stop struggling was to just stop struggling. It's obviously not that easy. The whole notion is ridiculous.

I don't know if this paragraph says more about the attitude of the Yankee coaches or about Verducci. He does allow that Mattingly thought A-Rod "had been unwilling to address" these flaws in his swing, but we don't get any detail on that; how long had these flaws existed? Had Mattingly broached the subject before? The reporting of this anecdote seems confused.

***

In contradistinction to the usual complaints about Bonds, this may be the first time I've seen a sportswriter accuse a player of being too nice to the media:

Rodriguez knows reporters' names and their affiliates and will often ask them questions about themselves, a rarity among ballplayers. This solicitousness can be awkward, even detrimental, in the socially stunted environment of a clubhouse and the brutally demanding environment of Yankee Stadium. His blood may not run cold enough.

I fail to see how the guy can win.

He's Jordan in the 80s.