"Defense? Defense? Defense? We're talking about defense? I'm talking about the game. Defense?"

If the sabermetric case against Jeter's glove has long been closed, why do the sabermetricians keep opening it? In an e-mail, Tom Tango joked that Jeter comes up again and again "because he gets far more girls than his fielding talents should allow." Tom Tango joked that Jeter comes up again and again "because he gets far more girls than his fielding talents should allow."

Nice line, Tango.

Whatever, but he sucks significantly less this season given that he is 4th among AL SS according to ZR.

#3. small sample size ;)

One should not conflate playing the field with playing defense. Mr. Jeter obviously excels at one of these.

At any rate, Jeter's been a perfectly average defensive SS in 2008. It's too bad he can't hit.

Jeter's OPS in June was .801, in July it's .824.

Why would anyone care if a 20+ Million dollar singles hitter can field? He is the captain of all captains, the Truest Yankee of all True Yankees. A Baseball God among men. He doesn't need no stinking glove.

That singles hitter has a 121 career OPS+ which is higher than the 118 career OPS+ of the greatest singles hitter of all time, Pete Rose.

Whatever, but he sucks significantly less this season given that he is 4th among AL SS according to ZR.

Also leading the AL in RZR, last I checked. Of course, if you want to call that small sample size and point to his crappy defensive stats of prior seasons, you are correct to do so. But if you choose that path, then you also have to shut up about his small recent sample of so-so hitting.

You can't have it both ways.

I always try and avoid underestimating the impact of having smart players in the middle of the action.

I know every time a shortstop fails to track down a ball in the hole the first thought that pops into my head is, 'If only he were just a little smarter!'

Also leading the AL in RZR, last I checked. Of course, if you want to call that small sample size and point to his crappy defensive stats of prior seasons, you are correct to do so. But if you choose that path, then you also have to shut up about his small recent sample of so-so hitting.

You can't have it both ways.

I personally think that you would be stupid to write off Jeter's bat just yet, but I like playing devil's advocate sometimes. There is a phenomenon called decline phase, which players typically reach round about Jeter's age. And once this happens their hitting ability steadily goes downhill. However, I am not aware of any such phenomenon, that would explain a sudden increase in fielding prowess...

That singles hitter has a 121 career OPS+ which is higher than the 118 career OPS+ of the greatest singles hitter of all time, Pete Rose.

Factor in a couple of years of declining hitting for Jeter, and I think the under for Jeter's career OPS+ at 118 is a safe bet...

That singles hitter has a 121 career OPS+ which is higher than the 118 career OPS+ of the greatest singles hitter of all time, Pete Rose.

Be sure to give us an update when Jeter's 45 and still writing himself into the lineup.

i think it would be great if he plays the whole game and the NL players smoke a bunch of grounders up the middle and he dives futilely at all of them.

don't worry, AL fans, it would never occur to the NL lineup that jeter is becoming a mere mortal, and play accordingly.

Actually, I'm not at all worried about the NL lineup trying to exploit Jeter's defense because I suspect that it is not such a simple thing to hit the ball exactly where you want to against all-star caliber pitching.

i know, but a guy can dream.

The NL's only hope would be for Cliff Lee to momentarily return to his 2007 performance during the two or three innings when Jeter is actually in the field.

(BTW, I find it amusing that the starting pitchers in the All-Star Game are a Brewer and an Indian, and neither one is CC Sabathia.)

"
10. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 14, 2008 at 02:57 PM (#2856073)
I always try and avoid underestimating the impact of having smart players in the middle of the action.

11. SteveF Posted: July 14, 2008 at 03:01 PM (#2856088)
I know every time a shortstop fails to track down a ball in the hole the first thought that pops into my head is, 'If only he were just a little smarter!'
"

Wow. There's something poetically poignant about that post and response. Superficially it's as simple as 'well put, harvey' and 'gee, that steveF needs to pull the crap generator out from between his cheeks'; but that just states the obvious.

I'm thinking generational. Game-of-the-Week vs. Online-Demand.

[ never mind; personal moment ]

Nathan:

Personally, I don't understand Steve's comment. But since that is more of a reflection on me didn't feel the need to ask him to clarify.

If folks think I am being a dumb*ss it's better for all if they just state so clearly than try and be "cute" about it.

Otherwise, their beloved snark will be wasted. Because I "get" being called a dumb*ss.

If that helps anyone............

Harvey, i think it points to a 'smarts and poise' vs. 'range and performance as illuminated by stat analysis' argument. a never ending argument; at least i imagine there will be no conclusion in our lifetimes. to my thinking there's been such an ever mounting glut of information feed the last 15 years, and so someone who grew up during that time 'perhaps' tends to give less weight to 'intangibles' than fans who grew up in less media driven, multiCORE powered times. not all fans, no, i'm not saying that. how and if this leads to snarkiness... is for more patient minds than mine to evaluate.

just laymen's mumblings here.

Nathan:

Well, I have never disputed the claims that Jeter is sub-standard in the standard sense of a shortstop. I noticed in 1997-98 timeframe that he struggled going to his left.

My point merely is that while he surrenders hits in some areas of the game it's possible, possible mind you, that because of his innate baseball instincts he provides defensive value in other ways.

.... But if you choose that path, then you also have to shut up about his small recent sample of so-so hitting.

You can't have it both ways.

Except for one important caveat: Getting hit on the hand by Cabrera on May 20th severely impacted his offense.

Until May 20th:

.312 .351 .427 .778

From May 21st - June 1st:

.119 .255 .214 .469

From June 2nd - July 13th

.301 .367 .412 .779

Be sure to give us an update when Jeter's 45 and still writing himself into the lineup.

As long as he's not playing SS. If he is, I'm going to hire you to take him out.

My point merely is that while he surrenders hits in some areas of the game it's possible, possible mind you, that because of his innate baseball instincts he provides defensive value in other ways.

He knew to get across the diamond for The Flip in 2001. I'm with Harveys here; whatever his defensive difficulties may be, I'm not going to buy the argument that Jeter's head isn't filled with delicous brains.

"My point merely is that while he surrenders hits in some areas of the game it's possible, possible mind you, that because of his innate baseball instincts he provides defensive value in other ways."

I'm on the same page. One challenge in evaluating Jeter is determining if and how much his documented heroics, his highight reel of 'clutch plays', are a result of misguided adulation. The flip side challenge is evaluating if and how much the developing slew of stats understate his defensive value.

[ Descartes proved the existance of God, but ... ; ) ]

Rich, you don't happen to be a Yankees fan, do you?

Duh.

He knew to get across the diamond for The Flip in 2001

I'll agree that Jeter's overall defensive package is probably underrated on this site and we tend to focus on his obvious weaknesses (going to his left, reaching balls that 90% of shortstops get to, etc.). He's a smart player and, like Harveys says, that probably helps him defensively in ways that are hard to measure. But isn't "getting across the diamond" something that every shortstop does in such a situation?

I know this debate is 7 years old now, but back when people (except for us A's fans) were canonizing Jeter for "The Flip," there were a lot of dissenters pointing out that the play would have been less fantastic had Jeter actually been in the right position at the right time. Shortstops are SUPPOSED to be where he was.

Based on the coverage, either Derek Jeter is the golden god of wins who descends from the heavens 162 times a year to dispense clutchiness and ambrosia to a grateful world, or Derek Jeter is a collapsing white dwarf star of suck who befouls baseball by fruitlessly fist pumping at 100 six-hoppers up the middle per home stand.

So hard to choose one. Ah, if only there were a third option! But alas, this can never be.

I'm not going to buy the argument that Jeter's head isn't filled with delicous brains.

lol

I know this debate is 7 years old now, but back when people (except for us A's fans) were canonizing Jeter for "The Flip," there were a lot of dissenters pointing out that the play would have been less fantastic had Jeter actually been in the right position at the right time. Shortstops are SUPPOSED to be where he was.

I seem to recall a certain amount of debate even in the regular press regarding this, but I hadn't been associated with the delicious, delicious braaaaaaaains of BTF at that point. Was there a prevailing listserv or whatnot opinion at the time? Um, an objective one? Don't laugh.

an objective one?

No.

Shortstops are SUPPOSED to be where he was.

Omar Vizquel was quoted as saying he would never have been there.

Jeter was supposed to be at/or around second in case they tried to get the tailing runner. No SS in the world would have been positioned behind the first baseman.

Shortstops are SUPPOSED to be where he was

If you think about it, if shortstops were supposed to be where he was, we'd see that play more often :)

The Flip is one of those Immaculate-Reception, Havlicek-stole-the-ball kind of plays that doesn't strongly reveal a repeatable, dependable skill, but is simply perfect in terms of its timeliness and impact on a game. Jeter, Havlicek, and Franco Harris all deserve appropriate credit. And uncoincidentally, they are all Hall of Famers with reputations for smart, hustling play.

Jeter was supposed to be at/or around second in case they tried to get the tailing runner. No SS in the world would have been positioned behind the first baseman.

I saw Jeter interviewed last week where he said he was in the right position (between first and home)...as they practice their relays from the RF corner that way all the time.

I saw Jeter interviewed last week where he said he was in the right position (between first and home)...as they practice their relays from the RF corner that way all the time.

The play. No one is covering second. If the Yanks practice that, and I've seen him say that before, if he's telling the truth, it's certainly an unusual practice.

The play. No one is covering second. If the Yanks practice that, and I've seen him say that before, if he's telling the truth, it's certainly an unusual practice.

Agreed CP. The shortstop would, in almost all cases, go to second base on a ball hit to the right side of the outfield (while the second baseman serves as the cutoff man). The SS would generally remain there even if the batter was heading for third, in the rare event that a rundown ensued. If that's indeed the Yankees' practice, it's not standard.