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Nice line, Tango.
At any rate, Jeter's been a perfectly average defensive SS in 2008. It's too bad he can't hit.
Also leading the AL in RZR, last I checked. Of course, if you want to call that small sample size and point to his crappy defensive stats of prior seasons, you are correct to do so. But if you choose that path, then you also have to shut up about his small recent sample of so-so hitting.
You can't have it both ways.
I personally think that you would be stupid to write off Jeter's bat just yet, but I like playing devil's advocate sometimes. There is a phenomenon called decline phase, which players typically reach round about Jeter's age. And once this happens their hitting ability steadily goes downhill. However, I am not aware of any such phenomenon, that would explain a sudden increase in fielding prowess...
Factor in a couple of years of declining hitting for Jeter, and I think the under for Jeter's career OPS+ at 118 is a safe bet...
Be sure to give us an update when Jeter's 45 and still writing himself into the lineup.
don't worry, AL fans, it would never occur to the NL lineup that jeter is becoming a mere mortal, and play accordingly.
(BTW, I find it amusing that the starting pitchers in the All-Star Game are a Brewer and an Indian, and neither one is CC Sabathia.)
10. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: July 14, 2008 at 02:57 PM (#2856073)
I always try and avoid underestimating the impact of having smart players in the middle of the action.
11. SteveF Posted: July 14, 2008 at 03:01 PM (#2856088)
I know every time a shortstop fails to track down a ball in the hole the first thought that pops into my head is, 'If only he were just a little smarter!'
"
Wow. There's something poetically poignant about that post and response. Superficially it's as simple as 'well put, harvey' and 'gee, that steveF needs to pull the crap generator out from between his cheeks'; but that just states the obvious.
I'm thinking generational. Game-of-the-Week vs. Online-Demand.
[ never mind; personal moment ]
Personally, I don't understand Steve's comment. But since that is more of a reflection on me didn't feel the need to ask him to clarify.
If folks think I am being a dumb*ss it's better for all if they just state so clearly than try and be "cute" about it.
Otherwise, their beloved snark will be wasted. Because I "get" being called a dumb*ss.
If that helps anyone............
just laymen's mumblings here.
Well, I have never disputed the claims that Jeter is sub-standard in the standard sense of a shortstop. I noticed in 1997-98 timeframe that he struggled going to his left.
My point merely is that while he surrenders hits in some areas of the game it's possible, possible mind you, that because of his innate baseball instincts he provides defensive value in other ways.
Except for one important caveat: Getting hit on the hand by Cabrera on May 20th severely impacted his offense.
Until May 20th:
.312 .351 .427 .778
From May 21st - June 1st:
.119 .255 .214 .469
From June 2nd - July 13th
.301 .367 .412 .779
As long as he's not playing SS. If he is, I'm going to hire you to take him out.
I'm on the same page. One challenge in evaluating Jeter is determining if and how much his documented heroics, his highight reel of 'clutch plays', are a result of misguided adulation. The flip side challenge is evaluating if and how much the developing slew of stats understate his defensive value.
[ Descartes proved the existance of God, but ... ; ) ]
I'll agree that Jeter's overall defensive package is probably underrated on this site and we tend to focus on his obvious weaknesses (going to his left, reaching balls that 90% of shortstops get to, etc.). He's a smart player and, like Harveys says, that probably helps him defensively in ways that are hard to measure. But isn't "getting across the diamond" something that every shortstop does in such a situation?
I know this debate is 7 years old now, but back when people (except for us A's fans) were canonizing Jeter for "The Flip," there were a lot of dissenters pointing out that the play would have been less fantastic had Jeter actually been in the right position at the right time. Shortstops are SUPPOSED to be where he was.
So hard to choose one. Ah, if only there were a third option! But alas, this can never be.
lol
I seem to recall a certain amount of debate even in the regular press regarding this, but I hadn't been associated with the delicious, delicious braaaaaaaains of BTF at that point. Was there a prevailing listserv or whatnot opinion at the time? Um, an objective one? Don't laugh.
No.
Omar Vizquel was quoted as saying he would never have been there.
Jeter was supposed to be at/or around second in case they tried to get the tailing runner. No SS in the world would have been positioned behind the first baseman.
If you think about it, if shortstops were supposed to be where he was, we'd see that play more often :)
The Flip is one of those Immaculate-Reception, Havlicek-stole-the-ball kind of plays that doesn't strongly reveal a repeatable, dependable skill, but is simply perfect in terms of its timeliness and impact on a game. Jeter, Havlicek, and Franco Harris all deserve appropriate credit. And uncoincidentally, they are all Hall of Famers with reputations for smart, hustling play.
I saw Jeter interviewed last week where he said he was in the right position (between first and home)...as they practice their relays from the RF corner that way all the time.
The play. No one is covering second. If the Yanks practice that, and I've seen him say that before, if he's telling the truth, it's certainly an unusual practice.
Agreed CP. The shortstop would, in almost all cases, go to second base on a ball hit to the right side of the outfield (while the second baseman serves as the cutoff man). The SS would generally remain there even if the batter was heading for third, in the rare event that a rundown ensued. If that's indeed the Yankees' practice, it's not standard.
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