Isn't hitting for non-infield grounders part of being a well rounded player?

Ruth was well rounded because he contributed a lot on offense and defense.

Ichiro is apparently well rounded because he hits for average, steals bases and plays good defense. Aside from there being no comparison, there are dozens of players who fit that profile.

Oh I get it (after RTFA) apparently Ichiro gets points because of batting practice. Well, if that is the case then doesn't Ted get points because his teammates said he was real fast in pregame drills and that he was a good defender?


So then what about Willie Mays? How in the world does this guy completely fail to mention Willie Mays in an article about complete well rounded players?

No need even to invoke Willie Mays. Tony Phillips was as "well-rounded" as Ichiro -- again, unless you define "well-rounded" as "like Ichiro."

Well, he's not really claiming that Suzuki is comparable to Ruth in value, just in depth of skill set, whatever that means. I think breadth of skill set is actually closer to what he's trying to say, but whatever.

The real premise here is that Japan somehow cheated Ichiro of the full MLB career that he should have had, and cheated us of seeing that full career. Of course, one might just as well argue that America cheated Japanese fans out of seeing Ichiro's full career in his own country.

But let's look at that career in terms of that premise -- in terms of his career rate stats, Suzuki benefits from having come into the league at his peak, rather than as a raw 20 year old. Those rate stats also benefit from the fact that he hasn't had his decline phase yet. Had he played his entire career in MLB, it's not a sure bet that he'd lead active players in batting average. And if he loses a step or two in the next few years, it's not likely that he'll stay atop that list.

[Edited for clarity]

Oh, look, another Ichiro!is!god! column that praises his hits, batting averages, defense, and steals... but doesn't mention his lack of walks or his lack of power.

No, wait, it does mention his lack of power:

In the five-tool world of baseball he has the sharpest implements in everything but power -- but only because he prefers to wave his wand rather than swing it like a club.

So Ichiro could hit home runs... if he wanted to.

James Weisberg? Is that you?

The batting practice thing is laughable.

A "well rounded" player, who can't walk, hit doubles, or hit home runs. Odd.

And how does Ichiro get over the young Bonds for well-roundedness?

How is Ichiro more "well rounded" than David Wright, who can for average and power and steal bases and walk?

Than ARod?

invocations of Ichiro's greatness have become increasingly tedious: they're not really about him, imo, they're about the state of the game--they're another way of saying "damn kids today with their bling and their lousy fundamentals"--mix a little grumpiness, a little racism, and a little anti-Moneyball sentiment and voila!: a lethal cocktail of sloppy thinking....

he prefers to wave his wand

Basehitsinglello!

invocations of Ichiro's greatness have become increasingly tedious: they're not really about him, imo, they're about the state of the game--they're another way of saying "damn kids today with their bling and their lousy fundamentals"--mix a little grumpiness, a little racism,

At least it's a sign of some sort of progress that the beneficiary of whatever racism there may be in these comments is one of those slanty-eyed yellow devils....

Did he just compare Ichiro and Ted Williams based solely on average? Thought so. Yeah, that Williams guy definitely comes back to the crowd due to his poor base running skills.

This guy is absolutely correct. By the end of the article I hated him.

I think Ichiro is a great player and will be a Hall of Famer. I think he's going to end up with over 3000 hits and be one of the top handful of defensive players to ever do that. I think that if he'd been able to start his career in the US he'd have looked like an even greater player, one who would eventually have held the career hits record. Going further out on a speculative limb, I think if he really wanted to he could turn himself into a passable pitcher. He's a rare kind of athlete and an enormously entertaining player to watch. There are few bigger Ichiro fanboys than me.

And I think this article was dumb as hell.

He's easily the most well-rounded center fielder with similar value since, uh, Ray Lankford.

What Teddy F. Ballgame said, and I'm probably one of the few bigger Ichiro fanboys than him.

Give me column space, and I could gush about what a great, fun, valuable player Ichiro is. But why do all these guys resort to such hyperbole? This guy could have made the same points without ever mentioning Babe Ruth or Ted Williams. I mean, I know he's trying to be controversial, but isn't it all a bit trite by now?

And all things considered, I'd much rather Ichiro had never gone to the Majors, if we have to choose one place for him to play his entire career. How ####### patronizing and provincial can you get? "Poor us! We missed seeing Ichiro's early career because he was playing in his stupid homeland!"

So Ichiro could hit home runs... if he wanted to.

I believe it was Norm Charlton who said that Ichiro! could hit 40 if he wanted to. Given that the only two times he's topped 10 he's suffered hugely in the BA/OBP department, I think we can all agree this folly.

I believe it was Norm Charlton who said that Ichiro! could hit 40 if he wanted to. Given that the only two times he's topped 10 he's suffered hugely in the BA/OBP department, I think we can all agree this [is] folly.

Well, based on that, I think we can all agree that he could hit 40 HR if he wanted to, but he'd suffer a big drop in BA (and thus OBP). Which is all the man himself has ever said.

he probalby doesn't want to hit home runs because then BBTF woudl accuse him of roiding.

BTW, didn't Ichiro debut at 18? Also, HTF is posting "communist"?

And how can he blame China for Ichiro not playing in the U.S.? Personally, I think we should blame white people everywhere for John Kruk retiring early and quitting on his team, but that doesn't mean it's good logic.


On a completely serious level, the only thing I'm sure of is that Ichiro could write a better sports column than this guy in Japanese, English, Chinese, or any other language, including languages he doesn't know and fictional languages.

So to summarize, the writer is fabricated parts of his column, doesn't understand history, and craftily weaves racism into his work. I appreciate it just on the level that it was nice of him to demonstrate how someone can be racist WHILE giving what they see as a compliment.

From the article:

This is where I get angry with the culture and politics of the Far East, which denied us -- we the American people -- the chance to watch Ichiro's entire career.

What a gobsmackingly ignorant article. Japan's posting system isn't "quasi-communist." It's not all that different from the pre-Free Agent Reserve Clause in America. Furthermore, Japanese baseball isn't dictating to American baseball, the system is a result of an agreement between the two leagues.

...Ichiro’s career .333 average ranks “only” 25th all time, but the game has changed so much that only two players ahead of him played since World War II—Ted Williams (.344) and Tony Gwynn (.338).

God how I hate this: comparing the rate stats of a player in mid career with those who have retired. I'm sure there are plenty of post-WWII players who had a career BA higher than .333 in mid career. Boggs and Carew come to mind. Musial. Pujols and Helton are within a couple of points.

As for well rounded, Ichiro can't hold a candle to Willie Mays. Sure, he hit "only" .302. But at an age when Ichiro was slapping singles for a .333 batting average, Mays was hitting the same, and pounding 30-50 HR and winning GGs in CF, and winning 4 consecutive SB titles.

The ultimate irony is that MLB fans have gotten to see Ichiro earlier than they would have because of the posting system. Otherwise he would have had to wait until he'd gotten free agency, at least a year later, if not two.

I'm sure of is that Ichiro could write a better sports column than this guy in Japanese, English, Chinese, or any other language, including languages he doesn't know and fictional languages.

はい

Ou gen rezon!

Oui!

Claro!

Ichiro Suzuki is the most well-rounded baseball player since Babe Ruth.

He's not even the most well-rounded centerfielder to play for the Mariners in the last 10 years.

Lifetime .379 OBP...big deal...that sucks as a lead off hitter. I'll take Rickey Henderson (lifetime OBP .401) over Ichiro any day.

Lifetime .379 OBP...big deal...that sucks as a lead off hitter. I'll take Rickey Henderson (lifetime OBP .401) over Ichiro any day.

Henderson is a baseball immortal, and no question, if I had to start a team and choose someone to play outfield and leadoff, and I had my choice of Prime Rickey or Prime Ichiro, I go with Rickey. But .379 sucks as a leadoff hitter?

I remember back in 2001, when statheads backlashing against Ichiro griped that he was batting lead-off with "only" a .380 OBP, while Ichiro was actually leading all lead-off hitters in OBP.

An AL hitter with a .379 OBP would rank 22nd in the league right now. Ranked above him would be:

up to 5
players

1. D Ortiz .437
2. M Ordonez .429
3. J Posada .423
4. A Rodriguez .417
5. J Cust .412
6. J Thome .405
7. C Pena .402
8. V Guerrero .401
9. I Suzuki .396
9. R Willits .396
11. K Youkilis .391
12. P Polanco .389
12. B Upton .389
14. G Sizemore .388
14. N Swisher .388
16. M Ramirez .387
17. D Jeter .386
18. J Vidro .383
19. B Roberts .381
20. T Hafner .380
20. M Lowell .380

Aside from Ichiro, the only lead-off hitters on that list are Reggie Willits (more or less), Grady Sizemore, and Brian Roberts. None are over .400. In fact, only Ichiro and Willits are over .390. While on an absolute scale, .379 may not seem like much compared to the sluggers with .400+ OPB, any team getting .379 from their lead-off hitter is getting top class OBP in that spot.

Reggie Willits has a higher OBP than Ichiro? Geez, that just proves my point. If Ichiro is going to bat leadoff he needs to learn to be selective and think of successfully getting on base instead of just trying to accumulate hits.

I'll take Rickey Henderson (lifetime OBP .401) over Ichiro any day.

I would too. In fact, this logic can be expanded to all walks of life.

I was going to have lasagne for lunch, but I'll take the four-course prix fixe at L'Espalier over that any day!

Reggie Willits has a higher OBP than Ichiro? Geez, that just proves my point.

It proves your point if by "sucks", you meant he has the second best OBP in the league.

And I'd take Babe Ruth over Rickey Henderson as my leadoff hitter.

Reggie Willits has a higher OBP than Ichiro?

No, he has the same OBP as Ichiro this season (in 200 fewer PA), and his very good year this year is higher than Ichiro's career OBP. Whether he can maintain that is quite up in the air.

Geez, that just proves my point. If Ichiro is going to bat leadoff he needs to learn to be selective and think of successfully getting on base instead of just trying to accumulate hits.

No, his job is to get on base, which he does better than most lead-off hitters in the league in any given year (in a pitcher's park, no less). How he gets on base is irrelevant.