With Tony Gwynn Jr. ready to come back from a minor league rehab assignment and Mike Cameron scheduled to join the team after a 15-game suspension next week, the Brewers were going to have a glut of outfielders. Thus, they dealt Gross, who was batting only .209 but had started to swing the bat in recent games.

"It was a little bit out of the blue," said Gross. "Something had to give (in the outfield)."

Butler, a second-round pick in 2006 out of the University of San Diego, was assigned to Class A Brevard County.

MIL J-S blog

That Overbay trade didn't do much for either team, did it?

So now they have a 2-man bench?

No, Gwynn The Younger is getting activated to replace Gross.

Butler seems like a decent prospect, but I guess the Rays do have young pitching to spare, now.

No, Gwynn The Younger is getting activated to replace Gross.

It still doesn't make much sense to me. The team can't keep going with more than 12 pitchers and when they do go back down Gross is more valuable than McClung (or Turnbow). Unless the team really wanted to acquire Butler.

One Gabe in the outfield is enough.

So they still have a 14 man pen til Cameron comes back. Insanity.

Maybe they'll bring up a hitter when Gagne's arm falls off while taking a shower tonight. Good thing he hasn't had any health problems and can be worked over like a 19 year old porn star.

MLB.com:

Capping a weird day at Miller Park that included a four-hour, 28-minute game in which Cardinals slugger Albert Pujols played three innings at second base and three pitchers appeared as pinch-hitters, the Brewers traded Gross to the Rays for a Minor League pitcher just minutes after Gross crossed the plate for a 12-inning, 9-8 victory over St. Louis.

"Some day," Gross said with a shrug.
...
With Gwynn getting healthy and center fielder Mike Cameron set to return from a 25-game suspension next week, the Brewers were flush with outfielders.

"Something had to give," Gross said. "I do my best not to try to figure this game out as far as trades and different things like that. We've got a lot of quality baseball players and a lot of quality outfielders. When Mike comes back there's going to be a lot less playing time."

I don't like it. I'd much rather have Gross than Gwynn.

That Overbay trade didn't do much for either team, did it?

Nope. I wished it had never happened, and I couldn't care less about the players traded away.

I still like Dave Bush as a #4 starter.

Rosenthal wrote this morning that the A's were interested. I'd rather have Gross than either of the Royals rejects.

That Overbay trade didn't do much for either team, did it?

Nope. Melvin doesn't seem to be very good at making trades. Even the Sexson one doesn't look all that great 5 years later. Nobody that he's acquired via trade is a keeper except Villanueva. Capuano looked good for a year and a half or so, but that's been balanced out by all the terrible guys he acquired and insisted upon playing (Moeller, Obermueller, Kinney, Counsell, Estrada, etc.).


As for this trade, I'm not a big fan because it seems pointless at best. Gwynn is pretty useless as a defensive replacement when Cameron is the CF and the LF and RF are the 2nd and 3rd best hitters on the team. None of those guys should be removed very often. Gross is a better player than Gwynn now, and probably better than Kapler as well.

Also, Butler doesn't look like anything special, 23 and in A ball. He's got a 5.29 ERA and less than a 2-1 K to walk ratio in the Florida State League (this year and last), which is notoriously pitcher friendly.

Butler looked good in the Sally League last year, he was a second-round pick, and he's got pretty good stuff. Sickels rated him as a B- heading into the season, for example.

I just think it's too soon to write him off.

Tampa Tribune blog:

Anyway, VP Andrew Friedman just talked about the deal. Here’s what he had to say:

“He’s somebody we’ve actually talked to them about since spring training. We feel like he’s going to help us defensively and we like his bat against right-handed pitching. We feel like he has a good mix between patience at the plate and power from the left side. We feel like he’ll help us win games.”

Gross certainly can fake all three OF spots acceptably, but how bad is the TB OF defense if Gross looks good with the glove?
Are they still starting Neenah's own Eric Hinske in RF?

I don't like it. I'd much rather have Gross than Gwynn.

I'd rather have the 28-year-old lefthanded Gabe than the 32-year-old righthanded Gabe that was a minor league manager last year.

Gross certainly can fake all three OF spots acceptably, but how bad is the TB OF defense if Gross looks good with the glove?

I thought Gross was a solid corner OF. Wrong?

Anyway, unless he's a butcher, I like the deal a lot for Tampa. Gomes/Gross should be a good platoon.

Now all they need to do is sign Bonds.

Gomes/Gross should be a good platoon.

Gross/Gomes would be an excellent platoon.

I thought Gross was a solid corner OF. Wrong?

He's OK defensively, particularly with his offensive potential. He'll make his share of mistakes, but he's no butcher.

Defense isn't his strong point, though, which is why having his defense singled out for praise gave me a chuckle.

I liked the fact he could fake all three outfield positions, but that doesn't mean he played them WELL.

MIL Journal-Sentinel:

How can you have 14 pitchers on your roster and now be thin in pitching? That's the absurd position the Brewers find themselves in after playing extra innings for the fourth time in five days.

After running through seven relievers to cover the final seven innings, manager Ned Yost admitted that he had no idea what might happen tonight if starter Dave Bush can't contain the powerful Philadelphia Phillies.

Perhaps a 15th pitcher will be summoned?

"I don't think we'll see that," Yost said. "But I turned to (coach) Dale (Sveum) in the 12th and told him I was glad I had 14."
...
The game dragged on so long that the Brewers snapped out of a team offensive slump (eight runs in the first six innings) and lapsed into another (no runs from the seventh through 11th innings). The racing sausages even ran twice, never a good sign.
...
An overhauled bullpen has started to show cracks from the recent heavy workload, which starter Manny Parra didn't help by going only five innings. David Riske was tagged for three runs in two-thirds of an inning, Brian Shouse allowed three inherited runners to score and Salomon Torres walked in a run during the Cardinals' four-run seventh inning.

"Uh, Ben, you know how we said we going to keep you on the roster and give you some extra days off? How 'bout a few innings of relief instead, to test the soreness?"

I was thinking maybe Stetter would be sent down to bring a fresh arm up, but no transaction appears to be forthcoming. Parra could be in danger soon, too, with all these short starts.

how bad is the TB OF defense if Gross looks good with the glove?

Does anyone else think they'd be better off with Crawford in center, Upton in right and Gomes/Gross/Hinske et al. in left? Or does Crawford have a CF mental block or something?

That Overbay trade didn't do much for either team, did it?

That trade helped Milwaukee a lot for at least 1, maybe 2 years after. Arizona had a horrific year after that trade. So you can still say Milwaukee won that won by a good margin.

I'm not sure why people think a trade is a bust if the players involved don't have 10 year careers. Eventually every player retires, or falls out of baseball, this fact shouldn't downgrade the trade we are discussing here, it did impact at least 2 seasons.

Nope. Melvin doesn't seem to be very good at making trades.

This claim is preposterous.

Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik. Lee for Cordero. If I am not mistaken, people thought Cordero was finished, he ended up being the best arm to change teams at the deadline in 2006, by a long shot.

Also, the Sexson trade still goes down as lopsided.

I think by the "Overbay trade" he meant the trade that sent Overbay to the Blue Jays for Gabe Gross and David Bush and some other guy. Since this is a Gabe Gross thread, after all.

That trade helped Milwaukee a lot for at least 1, maybe 2 years after. Arizona had a horrific year after that trade. So you can still say Milwaukee won that won by a good margin.

Pretty sure they were talking about the 2nd Overbay trade.

Also, Butler doesn't look like anything special, 23 and in A ball. He's got a 5.29 ERA and less than a 2-1 K to walk ratio in the Florida State League (this year and last), which is notoriously pitcher friendly.

trading for an A-ball pitcher after 1 pro season is the definition of a scouts trade. This message board pissed their collective pants when Milwaukee got J Kendall. This board extrapolated about 200 of the worst plate appearances from Kendall in his career and acted like that was going to be his production this year.

Way off.

BBTF has a knack for laying it on thick, no doubt there is a hyperbole problem here.

Isn't it a little early to be saying getting Kendall was a good idea?

Melvin doesn't seem to be very good at making trades.
----
Pretty sure they were talking about the 2nd Overbay trade.

Both Overbay trades. Overbay was very productive in 2006, from the Toronto point of view. So he was below avg last year, so. Bush was nothing special. Both teams go what they wanted. One wanted a league avg pitcher, got it. Another wanted a body at 1st.

Once someone say Melvin is not good at trades, it becomes a larger thread than just Gross.

Isn't it a little early to be saying getting Kendall was a good idea?

I'm not saying it was a good deal. Where did I say that? My point was just the opposite, it was way too premature to say getting Kendall was a joke.

I think it's too premature to say getting Kendall wasn't a joke.

I forgot about Lee (probably because I was never a huge fan), but I still think it is safe to say that Melvin's reputation among some Brewer fans as some master trader is overblown.

Of course the Sexson trade is lopsided, because Sexson got hurt. That doesn't change the fact that several of the players acquired in that deal actively hurt the team. If one player in a trade does well (Capuano), why isn't it fair to point out that the same trade brought back a bunch of terrible players? Same with bringing Cordero over, the abomination that is Kevin Mench came along for the ride in the manner of a remora.

Bush is an ok pitcher, but he's nothing special. A comparable player to him was cut by the Brewers and generated little interest.

The problem I have with Melvin's trades is that he seems to target guys that aren't that good because he thinks they are known quantities. It's worked to a certain extent, but I don't believe his trades have meaningfully improved the team. Sure, some of the guys helped out (Lee and Cordero especially, as you point out), but I'm just not really impressed. He lucked into the Lee trade because Kenny Williams was disillusioned with Carlos for whatever reason and wanted a speedy guy to replace him.

I guess what I'm saying is that his moves as a whole are underwhelming. If you disagree, that's fine, I just don't think getting a good player or three outweighs all the bad and mediocre players he acquired and played. I'm not saying he's the worst GM at making trades or anything, just that I don't think he's anything special in that regard.

...Or does Crawford have a CF mental block or something?

This is apparently the case...the front office has stated that Crawford doesn't want to play CF and that he isn't comfortable there. That certainly would've been the best thing for them to do last year when Baldelli and Upton both were out and the Rays were playing Delmon Young in center. But...if it didn't happen then, I'm not holding my breath for it to happen in the future.

That doesn't change the fact that several of the players acquired in that deal actively hurt the team. If one player in a trade does well (Capuano), why isn't it fair to point out that the same trade brought back a bunch of terrible players?

The Brewers' talent base was horrible at the time of that trade, and that trade both allowed them to not rush the blue-chippers, and it did fill in several holes - remember, this was the final days of the Seligs when Melvin was under SEVERE financial restraints, when it was all doom-and-gloom for the Brewers and the payroll would have be sub-$30 million forever because Milwaukee couldn't support a team, the state was threatening to open the Brewers' financials, etc., etc.

Funny how those concerns went away under Attanasio, but anyways...

They got a couple of decent years out of Overbay and Capuano
Counsell played great defense at SS (a surprise I wasn't expecting when the trade was made)
Spivey had injury problems that likely lead to his demise, finally lost it and was flipped for Ohka and Weeks promoted
Moeller was pretty bad, but the Brewers didn't have anyone better at catcher
DLR showed flashes, but didn't do much and was flipped for Graffanino

In his second year with the Brewers, the 28-year-old Gross batted just .209 (9-for-43) in 16 games this season.

Isn't this his third year with the Brew Crew?

Anyways, I don't think that merely citing his .209 BA is entirely fair. He was just starting to hit the ball well since being given a regular starting role on April 15; today marked the 5th consecutive game that he's reached base twice in an outing--and he finally showed some power, hitting 2 doubles. His LD% is about the same as last year, while GB% his much higher than normal and his BABIP is lower than to be expected. IOW, .209 isn't a sign of the future and the sample size is really, really small. Looking at Kapler's and Gwynn's numbers, the sample size is even smaller but they seem to be in the opposite situation than Gross: much higher LD% and BABIP than expected with a lower GB% than in past seasons.

So, who will have a better season, barring injury: Gabe Gross, Gabe Kapler, or Tony Gwynn Jr.? And how much does this post matter since I'm writing about the Brewers' 4th & 5th outfielders when Mike Cameron joins the squad?

Gross certainly can fake all three OF spots acceptably, but how bad is the TB OF defense if Gross looks good with the glove?
Are they still starting Neenah's own Eric Hinske in RF?

Couldn't the Rays have solved this by calling up Ruggiano?

Hmmmm... it looks like PECOTA wants to have Gross's babies so maybe the Rays are on to something here.

The Brewers' talent base was horrible at the time of that trade, and that trade both allowed them to not rush the blue-chippers, and it did fill in several holes

It's true that there were some benefits, it's just that people act like Melvin bamboozled Arizona in that trade. Sexson didn't do much in AZ and Capuano and Overbay were good for a year or two but I still don't see it as an earthshaking move for either franchise.

A couple of the ancillary parts were soon traded, like you said, but the guys they brought back were not the type of guys that are hard to find.


And we're ignoring some of his much worse moves. Trading Doug Davis and Olympia Fats for Estrada, Vargas, and Aquino was a disaster. Trading Javier Valentin before he ever played a game with the team cost them a guy who could have saved us from the Moeller era. Trading Leskanic, a player pretty comparable to Linebrink at the times of their respective trades, netted the team an atrocious pitcher who they insisted on running out there for 3 years.

Bush is an ok pitcher, but he's nothing special. A comparable player to him was cut by the Brewers and generated little interest.

With the right defense and ballpark, Bush is probably worth about $8 million per season on the open market. He is valuable.

He lucked into the Lee trade because Kenny Williams was disillusioned with Carlos for whatever reason and wanted a speedy guy to replace him.

This isn't the extent of your case for Melvin being crappy, or overrated, on trades is it?

#34 NTN pretty much nailed the analysis of the Melvin deals during the rebuilding era.

A couple of the ancillary parts were soon traded, like you said, but the guys they brought back were not the type of guys that are hard to find.

This may be true, but when you pick up several of these parts, essential for a crappy team like Milwaukee at the time, for one player, that himself is not difficult to find, in his walk year, makes the deal worth noting.

Because it wasn't the earth shattering deal many pegged it as, doesn't make is suck either. It was a good trade.

Gross is a perfectly fine platoon right-fielder. Very fine arm, good range and hits .256/.351/.423 against RHP over his career. He's actually a better option for the role at this point in his career than Cliff Floyd.

Trading Doug Davis and Olympia Fats for Estrada, Vargas, and Aquino was a disaster.

For someone that equated D Bush to waiver bait, you now hoist D Davis on a pedestal. This is not exactly the same as blowing the J Santana sweeps of 2007/2008.

Leskanic? Are you serious? The fact that Melvin was able to trade him for anything, proves he is good at the trade. Melvin's weakness may be keeping players around too long and not cutting them. Which is different that being crappy at trades.

I'm not saying that every trade was a bad one, just that overall, I don't think the net effect of Doug's trades has been that great. Like I said, I don't think he's in the bottom tier of guys, just that he's not as great as his rep seems to be among a certain segment of Brewer fans.

This claim is preposterous.

Carlos Lee for Scott Podsednik.

Lee was an average player--at best--for the Brewers, which wasn't worth his $8M/year salary. Lee for Cordero was a nice flip, though giving Mench 400+ PA of below replacement level production negated much of Cordero's value.

If they moved Carl Crawford to CF he wouldn't have to worry about whether or not to catch a foul ball with the winning run on 3B.

Trading Doug Davis and Olympia Fats for Estrada, Vargas, and Aquino was a disaster

Doug Davis isn't any better than Vargas so not really sure why it was a disaster other than Estrada playing hurt all year. Davis was terrible last year he just got bailed out by the DBacks defense and bullpen. His ERA would have been north of 5 as a Brewer.