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edit: Costanzo makes the deal better, but I still don't understand why they're trading for low ceiling guys who are going to be gone before the Astros are good again. They need prospects.
This move could also mean the Phils are close to signing Rowand, as many perceived Bourn as an insurance policy were Aaron to leave. I'd have loved to somehow have had Bourn in Washington.
Not 100% sure I like the deal from a Phils perspective; the Cit is slightly tougher for pitchers than the juice box. OTOH, he won't see the Cardinals as often.
Do not like this trade. Am not looking forward to seeing Chris Roberson pinch-run 125 times next year. Remain convinced that the bullpen is a crapshoot in which very few multimillion-dollar contracts end up being worth it, especially involving pitchers moving to a new team. Do not know why Costanzo was considered worthless especially since the team has announced that no new third basemen will be signed this year, Wes Helms and Greg Dobbs being sufficient. Maybe they've already decided that starting pitching will be the focus this year and third base will be the focus next year.
This probably means that Myers is going back to the rotation which makes sense.
It does make sense, although there were about 15 times in 2007 when that was the mindbogglingly obvious move and they never made it. Maybe the next five months will be enough time for them to convince him that the life of a closer is not all peaches and cream and hell's bells, and he would be more valuable reverting to his prior form. In that case, good trade, since I don't think Myers was guaranteed to be a better closer than Lidge anyway.
That particular writer is always complaining the 'stros don't grab enough local talent, so expect a glowing assessment of the trade from him soon.
By trading AWAY middle relievers? I think it's more likely that he's a mole, and the real brains behind the middle-reliever-lust policy was always Ruben Amaro or Dallas Green or someone, who is still with the Phillies and whose job is now made a lot easier.
Next on the trading block, Carlos Carrasco, JA Happ and Eude Brito for Trever Miller and Dave Borkowski.
I only paid attention from a fantasy perspective, but didn't Myers say that he didn't want to switch back in the middle of the year?
Good luck in Philly.
Seems like a lot for one year of Brad Lidge. I give Geary a 30% chance of being better than Lidge this season.
Off the top of my head, he's the guy with tons of power, tons of strikeouts, and bad defense? The AA Russ Branyan starter kit?
You mean he said it in the middle of the year, or he said he didn't want to switch unless it was between seasons?
And if so, at what position? Seems like he plays them all.
you can't beat me, 'cause I'm the Wiz!!
[EDIT: The Tavares comparison is very accurate]
Does this mean Luke Scott is available?
Costanzo, if he pans out, could be Ensbergs eventual replacement at third in '09 if you just find some stopgap for 08.
An 858 in the Eastern League aint to shabby at all. He is 23 or 24 and could still use a little refinement though in making contact and in the steadiness of his defense. He has decent athleticism and a strong arm but can be error prone at third since he played first in college to save him arm for pitching.
Geary is a solid reliever and while hes no Brad Lidge he will offset some of the loss in the pen.
Solid deal on both ends I think
My recollection is that sometime in the middle of the year there were discussions about moving him back to the rotation. He said something to the effect of "I'd consider that for next year, but for this year (2007) I'm a reliever."
This thread is flying!
This presumes Jayson Werth will be the regular right fielder. I recall some talk about his being prone to injuries.
The important aspect is that Myers moves back to the rotation where he belongs.
True if true.
Also, Bruntlett provides a nice offensive upgrade over Abraham Nunez.
Really? He doesn't seem to be a very good hitter at all. Might still be true though, since "Nuñez" is Spanish for "Punto".
Well, Punto is also a Spanish word, but you get the point.
Pence isn't a very good defensive CFer.
I tend to look at career lines instead of single seasons for utility guys. I see a line of .250/.323/.364, which is acceptable for a utility guy, particularly with an infield stocked with hitters.
Well, duh :P
It's an honest-to-goodness trade, amidst a sea of A-Rod rumors and half-baked speculation.
Brunlett plays lots of positions decently, none spectacularly. He's a below average hitter, but gets on base a little and won't kill you as a spare part.
NTN, you nailed Costanzo pretty well.
Werth will get injured tomorrow reading this headline. Nice player though, I'd love to have him.
I think Bourn is a little overrated. Love the speed, but I haven't seen much evidence he'll ever be an average hitter.
"..intriguing bat, featuring power to all fields and good patience... can be a bit too passive at the plate.. range at 3rd base is average, with strong arm... may end up fitting best as a platoon bat".. C+
The book was 3 feet from my wife, but she's a deep sleeper (thank goodness).
Updated AP:
Not to mention that huge stadium! Those homers that have haunted him will be a thing of the past.
"Plus, his addition allows us to move Hunter Pence to right field, where he will continue to grow into the All-Star caliber player that we know he's capable of becoming."
"And it will allow Luke Scott to get traded to the White Sox, where we know he'll do well," Wade continued.
Speaking of which, when do the Phillies make a play for him? And if they did pick him up, how would the Rodriguez-Rollins-Utley-Howard infield stack up historically?
Best ever. Maybe second behind the Big Red Machine. Believe me, Phillies blogs have speculated about this repeatedly.
Philadelphia intends to move Brett Myers, who had been the Phillies' closer, back into the starting rotation.
[fist pump]
Okay, Geary, Bourn and Costanzo for Bruntlett and an extra 150 innings of Brett Myers. There's a trade I can live with.
Others have mentioned that Pence is more of a RF and Lane has been traded but it should also be noted that Jason Lane has been nothing at the plate the last couple years and is a waiver wire player now so its not like he would have mattered in this discussion anyway
(a) The contract is short-term and with the salaries coming off over the 2-3 year period I think the Phillies would still be under the luxury tax limit.
(b) you limit your exposure on the back-end, and get what arguably would be the 3 best years of A-Rod over the next 10. You'd pay a premium to get them, sure, but you wouldn't be paying for a decline period either.
Call it "The Furcal Redux Gambit"--I just think if some team came out and offered something like the above, it would be almost too good to pass up, assuming the 10 year/$300 million deal doesn't come to pass and teams are offering more like 8/$250 or the like. This way, too, A-Rod would get one more crack at a big FA signing before his career is up.
The more and more I think about it, I think the Phillies should try this. They'd probably threaten to score 900 runs with him batting #3.
Sometimes, it is possible to outsmart yourself.
I would hope so at $50M per season; they scored 892 this year.
I don't have the figures in front of me, but I think the Phillies are set to drop something like $20 million in payroll from contracts coming off the books + options declined, etc. Some of that will be given back in arbitration increases, a potential Roward signing, etc. but then for 2009-2010 Burrell's $14 million comes off the books too, along with Gordon (I think $8 million). The money is there for the Phillies to make this kind of play if they keep it in the $45-$50 million a year range and limit the years to 2 or 3 at most.
I seem to recall the pre-arbitration, pre-FA signing 2008 payroll for the Phillies was in the $70-$75 million range with contracts coming off, but I may be wrong. I still think this makes a whole lot of sense, especially if you can get a 2 year deal instead of 3 years.
*edit* According to this link, his original investment was 5 mil in cash and 20 mil in equity (which I think was the deferred monwy owed to Mario).
I heard he burned some bridges during his time with the Yankees.
Costanzo has power and does draw some walks too. Has a horrible time with the curve and is completely helpless against LHP. Made a ton of errors at AA but I think his defense is actually OK.
well played....
The $100,000 infield in 1913 was pretty good. OPS+'s of 136, 164, 167, 111.
But, on the whole, the Astros have the oldest 25-man roster in baseball. Trading for youth is an okay thing.
Eric Bruntlett is actually a pretty decent defensive shortstop, and an average outfielder. Not a great hitter, of course, or he'd have a starting job somewhere.
Okay, Geary, Bourn and Costanzo for Bruntlett and an extra 150 innings of Brett Myers. There's a trade I can live with.
An nice way to put it ... Lidge, the Struggling Years, is actually very similar to what Myers was as closer last year ... tons of strikeouts, days where he looked untouchable, but some occasional gopheritis. I don't expect that to get worse for Lidge ... the area of cheap HRs in the Cit is about exactly the same as it is in the Juice Box (Crawford box section). Bruntlett would appear to be the new Nunez.
Costanzo looks good at face value, but his numbers suggest a poor man's Brandon Wood at the plate and Ryan Braun in the field. He's already 24, so I can't see him making enough adjustments to make much of a major league impact. Can't believe Wade couldn't get something with better upside for Lidge, though those of you who are Bourn believers may disagree.
When you accept Nunez as your UT IF, you also accept certain tactical limitations. That is to say, he's a horrible PH, much worse than you'd expect from his overall batting line, and has been for basically his entire career: .153/.201/.215 in 298 career PA.
"Everyone wants top prospects, but when was the last time a top, top, prospect was dealt?"
Salty to the Rangers last year?
"Eric Bruntlett is actually a pretty decent defensive shortstop, and an average outfielder. Not a great hitter, of course, or he'd have a starting job somewhere."
Brunlett is a nice, underrated player. I don't think he'd kill you as a starting SS, and he makes a very good backup.
I love the idea of a 3-year 126m contract for A-Rod. Get him here for the rest of the Utley, Howard, Rollins, pre-FA years. The Phillies have to be making just an ungodly amount of money now. I would expect them to be in the top five for revenue. I would think they could support a $125m payroll pretty easily.
I'm a little worried that if the owners don't start spending more money we might see some labor unrest in the next contract. It strikes me that player expenses are historically low relative to revenue.
Utley,
A-Rod
Howard
Burrell
How would you pitch to that group. You put them B-L-R-L-R.
BBREF still seems unable to get me my morning coffee, at least, 5 minutes ago when I checked.
I think this is part of the Phils/Gillick's strategy. Look at all of the players they'll be losing to free agency right now. I'm sure they figured to get a few draft picks out of some of them. I like this idea, it's one way to restock your organization from to bottom up.
Is it absolutely beyond the realm of possibilities to consider ever trying Lidge back in the rotation?
I know he was moved to the pen because of injury issues - and I know he spent some time on DL last year - but it seems painfully obvious that he's prone to giving up HRs at the worst time.
Brad Lidge is no Ryan Dempster.
Seriously, though, isn't he a two-pitch guy these days?
I'm not surprised - these are the same dopey dopes that felt that Rico Brogna was a terrific player.
Count da RBize, #####!
This may be so, but $40 Mil. is ALOT!OFMONEY. Owners themselves may get sticker shock. I do realize, though, that we're talking about MLB owners, and that it's more likely that the owners are depending on the fact that regular people will think it's too much money to pay. They might thus gain some sympathy during the feared labor strife.
Yeah, and he had an EYE-talian last name.
One would hope that someone in the media would also point out the bevy of 1/4 to 1/2 billion dollar stadia we've seen constructed on the taxpayer dime, but I think you're probably right...
Really? He doesn't seem to be a very good hitter at all.
He's not. He's a pretty bad hitter.
That hardly precludes his being a nice upgrade over Abraham Nunez. (Not that you want Bruntlett getting regular playing time, of course.)
Keep your kinks to yourself.
But Josh Anderson is, and there isn't a dime's worth of difference between Bourn and Anderson.
Costanzo had a decent year at Reading, but that's a pretty good ballpark for HRs, and his overall SLG was just .490 even with the 27 HRs. At best, he's Ensberg Lite.
-- MWE
You're probably right - and I'm having no luck digging up scouting reports from his prospect days... but 19 HRs the last 2 years, I just can't see Lidge being successful in a 9th inning role with an HR rate like that.
The big advantage Bruntlett has over Nunez is that no one has ever made the mistake of giving Bruntlett a semi-regular starting job, hence Bruntlett has been (properly) typecast as a utility player -- whereas someone will always think Nunez can be a functional stopgap in the starting lineup.
Which makes him better than Helms...
Unfortunately I think this is a good trade for the Phils, because it effectively nets them a decent/good starting pitcher- without subtracting anything from the current team.
Fortunately they did nothing to fix that gaping hole at 3B- and removed the best in-organization potential band-aid in the process
He's also coming off a season where he wasn't worthless, and that means he'll likely get a raise from the $5.35M he made in 2007, whether it is in arbitration, or by agreement with the Phillies.
It looks like the Astros got a lot of crap in return. A 24-year old 3B with .490 SLG in AA isn't very impressive unless he's very good defensively, Bourn seems pretty close to worthless, and there's nothing special about Geary. The two major-leagues made a little more than $1M in 2007; perhaps it's just cutting salary and taking a flyer on Costanzo?
I don't see the Astros in a position to compete without substantial improvement anyway, so they might as well save the money.
I don't buy that... He's a marginally below average hitter that does have a pretty good walk-rate throughout his career - and an 85% SB success rate. Someone upthread compared him to Willy Taveras - I think he'll end up maybe half a notch better than that.
That's not Tim Raines... it's not even Brett Butler, but it's decent enough.
I have Costanzo's 2007 translation at a career-best 235/308/396. Chone has him at 217/286/365. A .263 EQA seems pretty aggressive, at 50-100 point OPS over the MLEs that me and Chone got, and that's over what was Costanzo's best minor league season to date.
Horrible trade for the Astros since they traded one piece with value for three pieces with no value. Now, I'm exaggerating a little. Two of those guys are probably better than replacement. But that's the problem with the concept of replacement value. It makes it seem like guys who suck have value. Bourn doesn't have value, he sucks. If he's starting for your team you aren't a good team. If you're trading for below average players (and Bourn and Geary are the definition of below average) you are making your team worse.
This move cements the doom of the Astros. Not because it is significant in itself but because what it represents about Ed Wade. The funny thing is that because the three worst run franchises in the majors are all in the central (Pirates and Reds) at least one of those teams will win enough games to convince themselves they don't suck.
The Phillies do seem like one of the places that could justify a huge A-Rod salary, given the gap between their market size and their historical market share. If the Phils got really hot, they should be a top 3 or 4 revenue team. I don't, though, know how their TV contract works, and if they--or any team--could count on getting the payback for the increase in TV viewership, or if those numbers are already set and wouldn't be up for renewal until A-Rod would presumably be gone. In which case an A-Rod signing would be transferring money to Comcast, not to the Phillies. That, I suspect, would be the rationale for a long contract; you could keep him through the TV renewal and extract more $ that way.
I think this is still speculation - it's based on the fact that he's fast and that he hit well in 133 PAs in the majors this season and in the Sally League.
I did say marginally below average -- but he's hit .264 (AA), .277 (repeating AA), and .283 (brief stint in AAA) -- that's not earth-shattering, but there's no Scarborough Green type futility in there either.
Costanzo hit .270/.368/.490
in a league that averaged .263/.330/.399
in a neutral park* that'd be an OPS+ of 134
an OPS+ of 134 in AA translates to much better numbers than 235/308/396 in the MLB (which would be an OPS+ of 77 in Phillieland)
Given the choice I'd have to go with BPRO's EQA of .263
* I don't have 2007 numbers for Reading, in the past it's jumped all over the place going from good hitter's park to good pitcher's park in the span of a year. In 2007 Reading was first in OPS and in the middle in ERA. It probably leaned hitter in 2007, but not enough to give him a 77 OPS+ mle
Bourn is a 4th OF to me, I can't see him ever having enough offense. Although I like his grittiness, Geary is a fungible relief pitcher with the upside that he can go 2-3 innings when you need him to. Costanzo's chances of being an average Major Leaguer are less than the chance that this past year was his career year, IMO. I can't help remembering Marlon Byrd's 30 HR year in Reading. History doesn't repeat itself exactly, but it is another warning sign.
I'm wondering if they are close to re-upping Rowand, hence making Bourn available. A 4-man OF of Burrell, Rowand, Victorino and Werth is alright by me. Otherwise, I guess they would be on the lookout for a semi-platoon LH corner OF to team with Werth and be a defensive replacement for Burrell.
I do hope that the exit of Bourn does not mean a year of Chris Roberson. The guy can't hit and can't play baseball, I don't see what they see in him.
Oh yeah, I think that a monster 2-3 year offer to ARod would be the way to go. But this ownership has always seen players as cost, not revenue producers. Heck, I'd bust the budget for 2-3 years in an all out attack on a WS win, while the 3 infielders are in their prime. But that would take a desire to win; this ownership simply does not care about championships.
I'd like to see them sign another starter, Lohse perhaps. Come to Spring Training with 6 starters; tell Eaton he has to re-earn his starting spot. Eaton just got an MRI so he might have some problems.
ed wade is right down there with purpura far as i'm concerned
it figures he couldn't get more for lidge than a frickin middle reliever and a 4th OF
what makes me seriously angry is that the astros for some reason i do NOT get just detest luke scott - the guy must either hate riding horses or must be gay or something. they have spent all last offseason, all last year and this offseason explaining how he's a platoon guy (what a load) or is always hurt (what a load) and now they are replacing him with willy taveras. you talk about unbelieveably stupid
hunter pence is league average in center, it's not like he's biggio
eric bruntlett is a very good utility guy because he can play any position, even in the OF
i am too SERIOUSLY angry to even write any more
stupid morons in astros front office
Honestly ... maybe I'm just overly pessimistic on the two young guys ... but to me, this is like one of those sports talk Madden-esque trades where you just keep piling players you hate or of little consequence on one side until you think there's enough total value to get your target.
"Howard, we need a pitcher ... how about Burrell*, Geary, and Alfonseca for Matt Cain? No? What if we throw in Nunez? And Barajas?"
* NOTE: Philly sports talk callers think Burrell is about as valuable as a poor man's Kevin Mench.
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