This is a very un-Yankees move. So they landed X Nady and some veteran lefty. Big deal.

Aren't the considerations applicable to Hughes also applicable to Tabata? Former top prospect whose star has fallen a bit due to injuries and poor performance. Hughes always was and is more highly thought of than Tabata, but before the season, I doubt any Yankee fan would have traded Tabata for Nady and I doubt any Pirates fan would be unhappy with Tabata as a return for Nady. Obviously, you can't just wash away the events of this season, but I don't think taking a chance on a highly talented 19 year who has some maturity issues and is struggling in AA is a bad gamble, especially in return for a generally nondescript 29 year old corner OF having a career season.

I know the Pirates wanted somebody to buy into the 2008 version of Nady, but it seems as if the Yankees and Pirates agreed to treat both Tabata and Nady as having value somewhere between what they appear to be right now and what they appeared to be six months ago. That seems fair to me.

If you were running the Yankees, would you trade Kennedy straight up for Nady/Marte?

How about Clay for Nady/Marte?


That's the wrong way to frame the analysis as it isn't necessarily relevant. Maybe the Yankees were, but were more willing to trade Tabata instead.

If I were running the Yankees, I would trade Sidney Ponson for Nady/Marte.

The question is if you were running the Pirates, would you make the trade. And I would say no in 0.5 seconds.

In Pittsburgh, the early reaction is... not favorable.

PIT Post-Gazette: Pirates Q&A;: The Nady-Marte trade

KOVACEVIC: What is certain to this point, Bennett, is that this trade is overwhelmingly - though not universally - unpopular. People who are angry are really angry, as you will see below.

That is to be expected with any trade that sends veterans playing at their peak in one direction, four unproven, unknown prospects in return.

But this is different: The Pirates had said they were seeking high-end talent, and only Jose Tabata appears to fit that mold, and he comes with significant questions about his hand, his hamstring and, yes, the uncertainty that comes with his age. But at least he has high-end potential. The same cannot be said right now for the other three, with the possible exception of George Kontos because of his power fastball.

There is no question that, at this stage, the return appears to be a disappointment. That could change over time, obviously, but we are not doing a 2011 Q&A;. We are doing one for today.
...
Q: Dejan, I've tried to be much more optimistic about the Pirates this year. I've even followed your advice that it's not fair to judge Neal Huntington based on Dave Littlefield's actions.

But this is classic Littlefield. Sorry. Ask for elite players, then accept a care package.

The last time I felt this pessimistic about the Pirates was when they drafted Danny Moskos.

It also makes Huntington 0 for 2 in trades. The Salomon Torres give-away just irritates me every night when I watch ESPN.

What's the rationale? And wouldn't the offers have gotten better if Huntington had waited a week?

KOVACEVIC: They might have, Raymond. Much to find out.

But he's running out of chances to have all his value based on potential, and a significant chance of being a zero contributor.

Running out of chances? He's 19!

Running out of chances? He's 19!

See Casey Stengel quote.

Running out of chances? He's 19!

There are things to like about Tabata, but those things are much cloudier today than they were as recently as four months ago.

This is a horrible, horrible trade for the Pirates. Baseball has become pretty predictable in the AL east. Yankees start off bad, they look old and slow and fall behind. Giambi is on the verge of being released. Giambi gets hot, the team starts to play better and by the all-star break they look like contenders. Approach the end of July and some team gives Cashman whatever he wants for nothing. Yankees make playoffs easily.

Well, as stated, I think it is. Tonight's game and the deal are making me think the Yankees, pretensions and all, will be a playoff team yet again.

Everyone on this board will be dust before the Yankees miss the playoffs again. It is never, ever, going to happen.

Yeah, in the perfect world, everything breaks right and Tabata becomes a star. But he's running out of chances to have all his value based on potential

Running out of chances? He is a 19 year old in AA. He is far from running out of chances. I also find Kontos and even Coke interesting. The exact type of player the Pirates didn't look at in the past. Only Ohlendorf leaves me cold. And the Pirates pitching is so barren that they can depressingly enough use him.

This trade makes me feel better about Huntington and the new regime. This is not the same old Pirates. DL would never have made a deal like this...... The Pirates traded a mediocre, 29 year old OFer that just played the best 100 games of his career and a 34 year old reliever they originally acquired for Enrique Wilson. DL would have brought back Ohlendorf and Melky because they were major league "ready".

That's the wrong way to frame the analysis as it isn't necessarily relevant. Maybe the Yankees were, but were more willing to trade Tabata instead.

Your comments on this site are irrelevant. But thanks for playing.

Tabata's an old 19 -- he turns 20 August 12 -- and slugged .310 in AA ball. .310!

He doesn't strike me as much of a prospect. He strikes me as a 16 year old that had an unusually well developed batting eye that allowed him to draw a ton of walks and hit doubles and bombs off fat pitches right over the middle against low-minors pitching. Tabata slugged .392 last year in high-A. Yeah, he was 18/19, but he hasn't really shown big-league power yet.

Against more advanced pitching he can't do as well, because he doesn't have power, many more pitchers at AA can throw strikes, and they do throw strikes to him. The OBP is nice, but when you bet on Tabata, it's a bet purely on his chance of developing power that he doesn't yet have. And injuries to his wrist and legs are lengthening the odds seemingly every day that he's going to develop it.

The Pirates got almost nothing out of this trade. Of the four players they acquired, only one has any real chance of becoming an impact player (Tabata), and that's a long shot. It's a classic Pirates trade -- it looks good on the surface, but what they're really getting is a couple of guys who have a good chance to eventually help a major league team as fringe/irregular players. In other words, exactly the kind of players the Pirates are already loaded to the gills with and don't need any more of. They need potential stars.

Is it all they could have gotten for Nady and Marte? Color me skeptical.

96. Ray DiPerna Posted: July 25, 2008 at 11:27 PM (#2874518)
Speaking of Yankee relievers, did Chris Britton die or something? Why is he not used at the major league level?
97. JC in DC Posted: July 25, 2008 at 11:30 PM (#2874523)
He's a POS, that's why.

wow ... people keep saying things like that ... and people keep being full of #### ...

chris britton career:
IP H BB K ERA+ WHIP
73.3 58 25 48 141 1.132

yeah, he sucks worse than hitler ...

yeah, he sucks worse than hitler ...

We've already had two Garvey threads today. We don't need a third.

Tabata slugged .392 last year in high-A. Yeah, he was 18/19, but he hasn't really shown big-league power yet.

He was playing with a broken hamate bone last year and had to have it removed in the offseason. It's pretty common for that injury to sap all power, so a lot of Yankees fans coming into the season were optimistic about him finally showing some power.

He's a good gamble to take for the Pirates, but I do think they could and should have held out for more.

Yeah, and then he showed up with a different injury and slugged .310. He's regarded in more than one quarter as an attitude problem. And he's going to the Pirates. Where's the optimism?

Britton is injured, BTW.

This trade starts out as being excellent for the Yankees -- it addresses needs, costs them nothing they need now, nothing they were counting on in the future, and is unlikely to have cost them anyone who would have helped them much in the future.

It starts out as awful for the Pirates -- they should have traded *one* of these guys for Tabata and one of the pitchers, not both. There is a potential of it turning out great -- Ohlendorf could look pretty good next season as a starter and be flipped for more prospects, both of the other pitchers have a shot to do something respectable in the majors (though the odds are still against it at this point), and Tabata is a young guy with a ton of potential still remaining.

The final judgment on this deal for Pittsburgh can't really come for two or three years, but yeah, they're starting from "bad trade".

Pirates Opening day starter 2009, Ross Ohlendorf

He was playing with a broken hamate bone last year and had to have it removed in the offseason. It's pretty common for that injury to sap all power, so a lot of Yankees fans coming into the season were optimistic about him finally showing some power.

Are you sure Yankees' fans were expecting the power to show up? Because I don't think that's how recovery from hamate bone surgery works. You don't just get it cut out and then voila, the power is back. Usually it takes about a year after the surgery for the power to start to show up. I would cut him a lot of slack here.

Are you sure Yankees' fans were expecting the power to show up? Because I don't think that's how recovery from hamate bone surgery works. You don't just get it cut out and then voila, the power is back. Usually it takes about a year after the surgery for the power to start to show up. I would cut him a lot of slack here.

He played the entire season with it injured, so it seemed reasonable to think his power would be a little better than last year since he got the surgery in August.

I don't get why people say this is so bad for Pittsburgh. The Pirates get four players, and the Yankees only get two. Don't you guys know that four is greater than two?

Any reason Ohlendorf can't put together a nice career as a replacement level MR/SP? That's worth something.

But thanks for playing.

Quit crying. If you're going to ask random questions in a thread, people will critique it. I have no idea where whether the Yankees were willing to trade Clay for Marte/Nady has to do with the issue of whether the Pirates should have held out for more.

Running out of chances? He is a 19 year old in AA. He is far from running out of chances. I also find Kontos and even Coke interesting. The exact type of player the Pirates didn't look at in the past. Only Ohlendorf leaves me cold. And the Pirates pitching is so barren that they can depressingly enough use him.

This trade makes me feel better about Huntington and the new regime. This is not the same old Pirates. DL would never have made a deal like this...... The Pirates traded a mediocre, 29 year old OFer that just played the best 100 games of his career and a 34 year old reliever they originally acquired for Enrique Wilson. DL would have brought back Ohlendorf and Melky because they were major league "ready".

By running out of chances, I mean, if Tabata continues to produce at his current rate - not decline or improve, but stay the same - for another year, does he even merit being called a prospect? IMHO, Tabata is entering the "red alert\" phase of his prospect status.

And if you're satisfied with this package for Nady and Marte, what are Pirates fans expecting to reel in for Jason Bay?

I have no idea where whether the Yankees were willing to trade Clay for Marte/Nady has to do with the issue of whether the Pirates should have held out for more.

First of all, Clay Buchholz is with the Boston organization.

I was pointing out that other teams weren't going to trade a top prospect for those two players.

The fact that you seem to think they could have landed a premier prospect for those two shows how stupid you are.

First of all, Clay Buchholz is with the Boston organization.

I was pointing out that other teams weren't going to trade a top prospect for those two players.

The fact that you seem to think they could have landed a premier prospect for those two shows how stupid you are.

How is Ian Kennedy a premier prospect? How the hell does Clay Buchholz enter the picture? The Cards weren't going to trade Pujols for those two players either, but that's a silly interjection.

I have no idea what the offers were for Nady, neither do you, but it seems to me that Beane was able to get a significantly nicer haul for Blanton than Pittsburgh got for Nady+Marte.

But he's running out of chances to have all his value based on potential,

He's only 19 and he's in AA. I think he's got plenty of chances left.

You can trade players on the DL with commissioner's permission, so there's no need for a PTBNL.

Not that I think Hughes will be dealt, obviously.

FWIW, Hughes is starting his rehab assignment, and could be activated and optioned at any time.

Someday, Kennedy or Hughes may be able to be as good as Pelfrey.

Maybe.

I think this is a good trade for Pittsburgh. Not a great trade, but a good one. The people who are trashing this in Pittsburgh are, in my view:

-- overrating Nady and Marte. They are complementary parts for a good team, not guys you want at the center of your team
-- undervaluing the prospects Pittsburgh is getting back, especially Kontos and Coke. Pittsburgh had *no* pitching prospects at that level in the entire organization

-- MWE

Beane was able to get a significantly nicer haul for Blanton than Pittsburgh got for Nady+Marte

Blanton's more valuable than Nady and Marte put together.

-- MWE

MWE,

How good do you think Kontos and Coke are?

Coke is old for his level, Darren, like you said, but he's got decent stuff, good command, and I think there's a very solid chance he pitches in the majors in the next year or so.

Kontos is a guy NY drafted out of college based on his build and potential rather than his very mediocre stats. He's had control issues, but throws hard. He's got the look of a late-innings reliever, though NY was still committed to starting him. A lot of people (scouts and fans) like him b/c of his potential. He's 23, I think.

I think MWE's analysis is about right on. The Yankees get back two players they need, one they need badly and the Pirates get some usable organization depth and a potential break-out prospect. But Blanton's a good comp. He's much better than Nady or Marte and thus merited a bigger haul. NY wasn't going to send a blue chip for Nady + Marte.

At first I thought this AP headline got the deal backwards:

Pittsburgh Pirates lose four minor leaguers

The Pittsburgh Pirates lost four minor league players on Friday, two because of positive tests for performance-enhancing drugs and two because of a revised military policy.

How good do you think Kontos and Coke are?

JC pretty much nailed it. My standard comment about young pitchers applies to Kontos: good enough stuff to succeed as a rotation starter, needs better command of it. Coke's been underrated much of his career, mostly because the Yankees always had a Hughes or a Kennedy ahead of him. He's better than an organizational soldier, and I suspect he'll contibute as a back-end-of-the-rotation guy or perhaps a utility pitcher. I also like Ohlendorf more than do most people, I guess - I saw him pitch a fair amount in AA and I think he's a lot like Coke.

-- MWE

This trade is pretty harmless to me it seems. I wouldn't be thrilled with it as a Bucs fan, but it's hardly a disaster.

Just as an FYI, Sickels had only Tabata (#2, B+) and Kontos (#15, C+). The others were considered C prospects, presumably. I don't see any of these guys as bad, per se, but I don't see why you'd want to acquire them.

Just as an FYI, Sickels had only Tabata (#2, B+) and Kontos (#15, C+). The others were considered C prospects, presumably.

Yeah, but Coke took a step forward this year. His age limits his upside, but he's definitely a better prospect than he was at the beginning of the season. I think Ohlendorf will be pretty useful in the NL. Even Mike Pelfrey can succeed in that league.

I don't see why you'd want to acquire them

If you're NY or the Red Sox, you probably don't want them. If you're about 15 other teams, you may want 2 pitchers very likely to fill out the back of MLB rotations (Coke and Ohlendorf), perhaps one of whom might be a bit more than that. Additionally, you get another guy (Kontos) with a higher ceiling who could be a solid set-up guy or more and maybe potential trade bait down the line. Finally, you get Tabata, once a very highly rated prospect getting traded on the heels of an injury and some make-up concerns. But as you're not offering Lincecum, you can get this slightly-tarnished high-ceiling prospect who's still not 20. I really think some people are confused about how much you can leverage w/a Nady and a Marte.

http://blogs.nypost.com/sports/yankees/archives/2008/07/mccutchen_and_k.html

MCCUTCHEN AND KARSTENS PART OF NADY TRADE
By JOEL SHERMAN

The package the Yankees surrendered for Xavier Nady and Damaso Marte is not as originally reported. It is fronted by outfielder Jose Tabata and pitcher Ross Ohlendorf, but the other two pitchers the Yanks gave up in the trade were Jeff Karstens and Daniel McCutchen.

The original reports had Phil Coke and George Kontos as the other two pitchers the Yanks were surrendering as part of the deal, which was concluded Friday pending physicals.

If that's true, I like the trade a bit better for NY. I'm not a fan of Karstens at all, and I'd prefer to keep Kontos over McCutchen. It's not a big difference, IMHO, but I prefer Kontos/Coke to McC/Karstens.

If that's true, I like the trade a bit better for NY. I'm not a fan of Karstens at all, and I'd prefer to keep Kontos over McCutchen. It's not a big difference, IMHO, but I prefer Kontos/Coke to McC/Karstens.

I think I would arrange them McCutcheon > Coke > Kontos > Karstens. But that's basically gut instinct and personal preference. I really don't see that this package is significantly better or worse than the other.

I think I would arrange them McCutchen > Coke > Kontos > Karstens.

McCutchen is further along, but since they're all further down on the depth chart then the frontline talent, I have no idea how to compare them but I don't think there's much difference between them, except that Karstens is much worse than the other three. I like the trade more now.

I don't think there's much difference between them, except that Karstens is much worse than the other three. I like the trade more now.

I really don't see what the Pirates would want with Karstens. He has pretty much no upside.

He has pretty much no upside.

He'll fit right in with his new team, then.

Tabata's an old 19 -- he turns 20 August 12

It would be kinda cool to be an old 19 again.

I don't see how Coke is a good SP prospect. This is the first year he's done anything close to age appropriate.

What did he do last year, make farting noises in the dugout? Wet his pants?

I think I would arrange them McCutcheon > Coke > Kontos > Karstens. But that's basically gut instinct and personal preference. I really don't see that this package is significantly better or worse than the other.

I'd flip Coke and Kontos, but otherwise I concur.

-- MWE

The deal should have ADDED Karstens and McCutchen

Seriously, Jeff Karstens? I find it hard to believe the Pirates don't have at least 10 pitchers better than Karstens.

I'd flip Coke and Kontos, but otherwise I concur.

I went back and forth between those two, but ultimately decided it didn't really matter, as they were clearly the middle two in the quartet. I must admit, I kind of like McCutcheon.

Seriously, Jeff Karstens? I find it hard to believe the Pirates don't have at least 10 pitchers better than Karstens.

They don't.

None of these guys are prospects. A 25/26 year old in AA ball isn't something about which you say, "I know he's old for his level, but..." He's way too old for the level, and he's not dominating it. He's not a prospect. This is true of Coke, and it's true of McCutchen and Karstens. None of those guys have any chance of doing anything more significant than managing to keep his ERA around 5.00 in the NL.

That's exactly what the Pirates are about -- they collect players that can play in the major leagues, but have no chance of enjoying any real success there.

This is true of Coke,

Well, maybe, but I don't worry as much about age with pitchers; their development paaterns are more idiosyncratic.

I just don't think that Nady and Marte are guys you can get a great prospect back for. You can argue, I suppose, that PGH should have just kept them, instead of doing this, but I really doubt a better deal would be out there.

That's exactly what the Pirates are about -- they collect players that can play in the major leagues, but have no chance of enjoying any real success there.

To add to the point, the talent pyramid rule applies here. At least Nady and Marte are good regulars. At least 3 of the 4 players in return for the Pirates are random generic young pitchers with a chance at being replacement level pitchers. If the Pirates couldn't get a better offer, they should have held onto Nady and Marte.

To add to the point, the talent pyramid rule applies here.

Well, as said earlier, that reduces the issue to one's valuation of Tabata. If Justin Zeth is correct, the Pirates will not be helped by this. But if one believes Tabata can still be good, it is worth the risk as they will not be hurt much by it either. Nady and Marte are replaceable if useful talents, and Emeigh's point is right: they are complimentary players, who help a contender with a core. They are helping the Pirates be a 75-87 team instead of a 70-92 team, which is not worthless, but is not decisive. Neither is likely to do any better than he is now, and Nady is highly likely to decline.

It is a very sound move by the Yankees, even if they miss the playoffs. Waiting and hoping on Tabata is not the right way to go for the Yankees right now, with Matsui and Posada out and the Red Sox and Rays only 2/2.5 games ahead.

Trading Nady just can't be a big deal. And even if he and Marte are "good regulars" there's no need for the Pirates to hold on to them. Tabata might turn out to be really good, and, in any case, he'll be along in time to help the Pirates the next time the TEAM has a shot at being good. Getting anything at all for Nady and Marte, even if they are good, is a positive for the Pirates as a team.

Trading Nady just can't be a big deal. And even if he and Marte are "good regulars" there's no need for the Pirates to hold on to them.

Sure there is: Notwithstanding the obvious problem that the Pirates will be making the picks or that the Pirates are too cheap to risk offering arbitration, Nady and Marte are both likely to be type A free agents when the time comes, and the compensatory draft picks are likely to bring in high upside players. Which is what the Pirates need.

In the short-term, this is another Drive for 75 move for the Pirates. The only feature of the trade which distinguishes the return from any of Littlefield's many mistakes is the inclusion of Tabata.

If Tabata eats his way into Randall Simon shape then Pirate fans should find this trade very familiar.

Will Marte be a Type A? I can see Nady, but "Every Day" Marte? If so, then those 4 draft picks woulda been pretty nice...

Was at the Globe here in Chicago watching the Sox game with my friend Melissa and there was mixed reaction among the folks there (though the Globe is a soccer bar, so perhaps not the best gauge). I felt sick at first, because I am a Rays fan and don't like seeing the Yankees improve. I had hoped Huntington could pull more in for Nady, and that Marte might net a nice Andy Laroche type (by this I mean a guy with a good ceiling, and one who has a chance to be a good player for 4-6 years in his prime, maybe making an All-Star team or two if things go well; basicall a much younger version of Nady himself). But it didn't happen.

Bay would net more. But, who can really afford Bay, prospect-wise? I still think the Angels are a good fit...

I suppose the bloom is off the rose for Huntington now. He didn't do well at all for Torres. But he could do well with buying low on Tabata. Especially if he resists the urge to give him the Jose Guillen treatment. Quick question: if Tabata becomes a Jose Guillen type, do the Pirates win this trade?

But I like taking a chance on Tabata. The 3-pitchers can indeed help this team either as 5th starters or middle relievers, since Gorzo and Snell are hurt/sucking this year. That has value. Hopefully Pittsburgh can get Alvarez signed soon and things will look much better when the new prospect handbooks come out...

Will Marte be a Type A?

Marte was only four slots below the A/B cut line last year. So if his 2008 ends up being marginally better than his 2006, or if the field regresses slightly, yes.

Nady won't be a FA until after 2009.

Littlefield was the guy that traded Brian Giles and got back Jason Bay and Oliver Perez. That's a skyscraper on the flat prairie or among the deep canyons of his other deals, but you won't convince me he wasn't forced by, or in league with, ownership to gut the team and make sure it continues to lose when he traded Ramirez, Lofton, etc., or to take on salary to assuage the image of cheapness while making sure the team continues to lose, as with Matt Morris.