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Sunday, June 15, 2008

Star-Ledger: Graziano: Indians flounder, Sabathia is trade bait again

C.C.N.Y….seeks to contribute to the cultural, social, economic, and baseball life of New York?

“Some things we’ve gone through this year are disappointing, but we could not have imagined the magnitude of those disappointing things,” Indians GM Mark Shapiro said. “We’ve had all negative surprises and no positive ones.”

There’s no guarantee they’d trade Sabathia even if they did fall out of the race. If they let him walk at the end of the year, they’ll get two draft picks in return. So if they’re going to trade him, they’d have to get back something they consider better than two first-round draft picks.

But Sabathia would be the most coveted player on the July trade market, and the Red Sox and Cubs have already signaled their interest in case he does appear there.

As for the Yankees and the Mets? Well, those are interesting cases. The Mets might not have enough prospects left in their system to make such a deal, having already spent them (and the big pitcher-contract money) on Johan Santana last winter. And the Yankees, who certainly have the young pitchers the Indians would be seeking in return, have shown no indication that they’re willing to part with any of those pitchers—especially for a guy they could just sign on the free-agent market a few months later if they want him that badly.

Repoz Posted: June 15, 2008 at 02:53 PM | 36 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
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1. buddy Posted: June 15, 2008 at 03:28 PM (#2820162)

if the yankees want to jump-start their year, and try to salvage it, there's no better way than trading for CC. poor results have a way of changing the principles the yankees had in the off-season when santana was up for grabs.

2. Famous Original Joe C Posted: June 15, 2008 at 03:49 PM (#2820175)

Whatever. The Indians have scored more than they've allowed and are 6.5 behind a White Sox team that is highly unlikely to run away with the division. I'd be shocked if Sabathia gets traded.

3. Best Regards, Larry Mahnken (Dewey is a slacker) Posted: June 15, 2008 at 03:56 PM (#2820179)

if the yankees want to jump-start their year, and try to salvage it, there's no better way than trading for CC. poor results have a way of changing the principles the yankees had in the off-season when santana was up for grabs.

The Yankees' season doesn't need salvaging, they're only 6 games out of the best record in the league.

4. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: June 15, 2008 at 03:59 PM (#2820182)

The Indians would need something back that's worth more than two first round draft picks. Are the Yankees going to give them that. I don't know; would you accept Hughes and Tabata for him? Would you offer that much if you were the Yankees? I think it's unlikely Sabathia will be traded at all, but it could happen; but I have a hard time seeing the Yankees being the team with the best shot at ponying up the young talent to land him. The Dodgers line up much better, don't they?

5. PanRains Posted: June 15, 2008 at 04:43 PM (#2820215)

What has been irritating me about these CC mentions is zero indication of what the Indians could get in return. I know that to expect a Colon or Randy to the Astros haul is unrealistic, but are we talking they can expect Melky, say, or Hughes+Joba? I would assume if the Indians traded himi to the Yanks Hughes would be the starting point, but I don't know if that's realistic.

Althought they have a worse record than the Indians, I like the Dodgers as a trade partner best. I'd trade CC straight up for Billinglsey (who's from Defiance, OH near Toledo - I don't know if that would make him more likely to resign with the Tribe down the road) and I'd love to figure out some way to get LaRoche and Kemp (I don't know how to do that, I'd just love to do so).

Dayn Perry at BPro suggested a Colby Rasmus and Bryan Anderson for CC trade, which is intriguing. I would do that, as well.

6. Padraic Posted: June 15, 2008 at 04:44 PM (#2820216)

7. Swedish Chef Posted: June 15, 2008 at 05:07 PM (#2820250)

Dayn Perry at BPro suggested a Colby Rasmus and Bryan Anderson for CC trade, which is intriguing. I would do that, as well.

That would be an insane price to pay for a three month rental and a shot at an extension.

Buyers and sellers seldom meet in price when it is star players in their walk years. Has there been any mid-season trade of one since Beltran?

Gagne doesn't count. :-)

8. DCW3 Posted: June 15, 2008 at 05:11 PM (#2820258)

Buyers and sellers seldom meet in price when it is star players in their walk years. Has there been any mid-season trade of one since Beltran?

Carlos Lee's perceived as being a star, at least.

9. Swedish Chef Posted: June 15, 2008 at 05:20 PM (#2820273)

Carlos Lee's perceived as being a star, at least.

Oh yeah, that one, hard to say if he was valued correctly and the haul was for a minor star or that the haul was small because he was a star rental, though.

10. Hurdle's Heroes (SuperBaes) Posted: June 15, 2008 at 05:22 PM (#2820278)

Carlos Lee's perceived as being a star, at least.

And that would still be considered a huge ripoff if either team to acquire him had hung onto him.

The Yankees' season doesn't need salvaging, they're only 6 games out of the best record in the league.

And I'm still waiting on Joe Blanton to go the the Yanks. Why won't Oakland just fade?

11. jwb Posted: June 15, 2008 at 05:47 PM (#2820315)

The Yankees' season doesn't need salvaging, they're only 6 games out of the best record in the league.

The Indians' season doesn't need salvaging, they're only 6.5 games out of the best record in the division.

12. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: June 15, 2008 at 05:53 PM (#2820326)

The Indians are just not going to trade C.C. unless they're way out of it come late July, like 12 games out. They're in no position to be able to afford announcing to their fan base, "well, we're done trying to win this year!"

13. JuanGone..except1game Posted: June 15, 2008 at 08:28 PM (#2820569)

This may be poor form, but since this thread will likely have some Indians fans I wanted to pose a question. Based on looking at Sabathia, is there any evidence that he is no longer the pitcher he was in 2007 and 2006? I've been having a discussion in another thread about whether the Phillies should try to acquire Sabathia (it's academic, I know; the Phils don't have the prospects) and another poster believes Sabathia is a "league average pitcher" whose last two years were "flukes." Thoughts?

I would tell that poster what "sample size" means. Take out the first four starts in March and April, which albeit where Sidney Ponson-awful, and CC has an ERA of 2.46 and a WHIP of 1.03 in the last 11 starts. CC would be no question the ACE of the Phillies staff and I have a pretty high opinion of Hamels.

14. Sparkles Peterson Posted: June 15, 2008 at 08:28 PM (#2820570)

Dayn Perry at BPro suggested a Colby Rasmus and Bryan Anderson for CC trade, which is intriguing. I would do that, as well.

Strike that plan. Yadier Molina literally carried off on a stretcher...

15. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: June 15, 2008 at 08:33 PM (#2820579)

Are the Yankees going to give them that. I don't know; would you accept Hughes and Tabata for him? Would you offer that much if you were the Yankees?

Even as a Yankees fanboy, I can say there's no way the Indians accept that. Hughes won't be able to pitch in the majors before late August and Tabata has more tantrums thrown than XBH in AA.

16. Cowboy Popup Posted: June 15, 2008 at 09:18 PM (#2820628)

I don't see the Yanks trading for Sabathia unless they can trade some lower level guys and exclusively arms. Maybe Detances or Melancon, and probably won't offer enough to interest the Indians unless the Indians are desperate to unload him. They're going to make the playoffs with or without him.

17. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: June 15, 2008 at 09:34 PM (#2820653)

The Yankees, or the Indians?

18. Cowboy Popup Posted: June 15, 2008 at 09:38 PM (#2820664)

The Yanks.

19. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: June 15, 2008 at 10:06 PM (#2820731)

Probably the Indians, too. The White Sox aren't going to keep it up, driven as it is by Gavin Floyd and John Danks.

20. PASTE is not impressed by Albert Pujols (Zeth) Posted: June 15, 2008 at 10:29 PM (#2820750)

That's what we all assumed about Cliff Pollitte and whoever back in '05, too, so who knows?

21. tribefan Posted: June 15, 2008 at 10:41 PM (#2820767)

The Indians' season doesn't need salvaging, they're only 6.5 games out of the best record in the division

A lot depends on how serious the Martinez injury is and whether or not Hafner can show any hint of his 2006 form when he returns. Oh, and a healthy Fausto might be nice too.

Scratch that, we do need salvaging.

22. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: June 15, 2008 at 10:50 PM (#2820778)

Strike that plan. Yadier Molina literally carried off on a stretcher...

A suitor for Brian Schneider!

23. Raskolnikov Posted: June 15, 2008 at 11:14 PM (#2820807)

Allow me to fantasize, I'd love for the Mets to pursue Sabathia in the offseason. Otherwise, I want him to stay in the AL.

24. bibigon Posted: June 15, 2008 at 11:56 PM (#2820838)

Allow me to fantasize, I'd love for the Mets to pursue Sabathia in the offseason. Otherwise, I want him to stay in the AL.

Would you consider something like Fernando and Pelfrey for Sabathia right now?

25. Raskolnikov Posted: June 15, 2008 at 11:58 PM (#2820841)

Bibigon, why do you torture me thus? What have I done to you? I leave you and your beloved Red Sox alone for the most part.

26. SouthSideRyan Posted: June 16, 2008 at 12:14 AM (#2820848)

Seriously, why are the Indians supposed to be sellers at 6.5 down, but the Yankees (down 6) and Mets (down 7) are buyers?

The Star-Ledger is just an awful newspaper. Sun-Times bad.

27. Raskolnikov Posted: June 16, 2008 at 12:17 AM (#2820851)

And to answer your question, I believe that the day the Franchise arrives in New York, the Mets will emerge from the darkness and that when it is all said and done, Fernando will be in the HOF.
Pelfrey will be an ace.

So no, I would not trade Fernando/Pelfrey.

28. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: June 16, 2008 at 12:20 AM (#2820856)

Would you consider something like Fernando and Pelfrey for Sabathia right now?

That's too much for a rental and the Mets are no lock to make the playoffs even with Sabathia as they are 6.5 games out. I'd pass.

Not to mention that the Indians might have a better shot at the playoffs than the Mets. Maybe if the Mets were closer.

Don't mind Rasky, BTFers.

29. Best Regards, Larry Mahnken (Dewey is a slacker) Posted: June 16, 2008 at 12:54 AM (#2820871)

Seriously, why are the Indians supposed to be sellers at 6.5 down, but the Yankees (down 6) and Mets (down 7) are buyers?

Because the Yankees are 3½ games out of the Wild Card, while the Indians and Mets are both 7½ behind the Wild Card team.

30. npurcell Posted: June 16, 2008 at 12:59 AM (#2820877)

Althought they have a worse record than the Indians, I like the Dodgers as a trade partner best. I'd trade CC straight up for Billinglsey (who's from Defiance, OH near Toledo - I don't know if that would make him more likely to resign with the Tribe down the road)

Umm...thats not very realistic.

31. OCD SS Posted: June 16, 2008 at 01:06 AM (#2820882)

I would tell that poster what "sample size" means. Take out the first four starts in March and April, which albeit where Sidney Ponson-awful, and CC has an ERA of 2.46 and a WHIP of 1.03 in the last 11 starts.

Why does 'sample size' mean you get to take out his bad starts to make everything OK? If CC's bad starts were distributed more randomly instead of being at the start of the season would you have any reason to remove them?

Without an extension I don't see any team willing to give up it's top prospects (there's no chance the Cards give up Rasmus); the Indians would likely be getting B prospects, but if they're out of it that's probably better than the draft picks. What would the Indians be looking for? With their current core it seems like they need guys who are ready to play pretty soon rather than trying to completely rebuild.

32. Guts

Posted: June 16, 2008 at 01:36 AM (#2820899)

Dayn Perry at BPro suggested a Colby Rasmus and Bryan Anderson for CC trade, which is intriguing. I would do that, as well.

I am sure you would.

33. Dan The Mediocre Posted: June 16, 2008 at 01:55 AM (#2820916)

his may be poor form, but since this thread will likely have some Indians fans I wanted to pose a question. Based on looking at Sabathia, is there any evidence that he is no longer the pitcher he was in 2007 and 2006? I've been having a discussion in another thread about whether the Phillies should try to acquire Sabathia (it's academic, I know; the Phils don't have the prospects) and another poster believes Sabathia is a "league average pitcher" whose last two years were "flukes." Thoughts?

ERA, GS, and IP by month for 2008
April: 7.88/6/32
May: 2.44/6/44.1
June: 2.40/2/15

I think it was just an atrocious month.

34. Mattbert Posted: June 16, 2008 at 09:00 AM (#2821089)

Why does 'sample size' mean you get to take out his bad starts to make everything OK? If CC's bad starts were distributed more randomly instead of being at the start of the season would you have any reason to remove them?

No, but that's the whole point (or at least I think it is; sorry if I'm misrepresenting #13). When I see a good pitcher have a bunch of poor starts clustered together like that immediately followed by a return to consistently good performance, I'm inclined to believe the good starts have more predictive value going forward than the month-long hiccup. I'd have more interest in acquiring a pitcher with that kind of "distribution" than a pitcher who's consistently average or a pitcher who gets shelled every 3 or 4 times out with regularity.

35. OCD SS Posted: June 16, 2008 at 11:09 AM (#2821105)

I agree with the sentiment about acquiring that kind of pitcher, Mattbert, as long as a certain amount of regression is expected as well. I'm also a bit wary of people just throwing out stats they don't like (doesn't CC have a history of being a slow starter?). After his workload last year I wasn't expecting as much out of CC this year, but he seems to have found his groove.

I don't think "Sample size" is exactly the right terminology if you're looking for a quick, dismissive, one word answer, though.

36. jwb Posted: June 17, 2008 at 04:31 AM (#2822341)

And to answer your question, I believe that the day the Franchise arrives in New York

the Knicks will be making tee time reservations for April 20.

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Star-Ledger: Graziano: Indians flounder, Sabathia is trade bait again

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