Rick Ankiel has been one of my favorite players ever since he came up back in 1999 with that filthy curve - still the best I've seen - and just made hitters look plain silly. To continue playing the game that broke your heart and persevere to once again reach the highest level is quite admirable, results be damned. Nothing would make me happier than his extended big-league success, though I don't know exactly how likely that is, and really, who can say? Has there ever been a player with as odd a development path as Rick Ankiel?

One thing's for sure, I can't think of a better human interest story in baseball than Rick Ankiel. Putting aside his baseball history, from all accounts he's a really good guy and great to be around, on and off the field. If you can't root for guys like Rick Ankiel, why bother watching sports?

If Ankiel fails as a major-league hitter, does he go back to the minors and try to be a pitcher again?

I remember Ankiel striking out every time he faced Gallardo in a recent game, but I didn't think Nashville's pitching was all that good.

Then I looked it up and they're leading the PCL in ERA by a sizeable margin (3.64 to Fresno's 3.98) and are tied for lowest WHIP. Huh.

FREE JOE THATCHER, though!
(LH reliever signed out of the Frontier League a year or so back)

If Ankiel fails as a major-league hitter, does he go back to the minors and try to be a pitcher again?

From what I've heard from spring training quotes, apparantly he still has absolutely nasty stuff. Most of the pitchers he's played catch with have had him (not through their doing all the time) throw his curve, and they say it's the best curveball they've ever seen.

That said, he just can't face hitters anymore. So If he fails as a major league hitter, I think he'll just be a career AAAA player. He has the same swing as mine (with a greater bat speed of course) and if he fixes his huge hole he has, he'll be much better, probably 3 more walks and 15 less strikeouts.

This is only his what? 3rd year as a full-time hitter? It's pretty good to be this close to the majors, despite his age and lack of walking.

That said, he needs to improve before he's anything more than a bat off the bench. His numbers translate to about a .250 OBP and .470 SLG, which won't get it done in MLB unless you're a catcher or SS. The slugging is nice, but a .250 OBP will just kill you. That would be an OPS+ in the mid-90s, which isn't terrible (Juan Encarnacion-esque), but with such an extrememly low OBP and a (presumed) lack of defense, you wouldn't want him to get much playing time.

I hope he improves his eye at the plate. He seems to have legit power, so even being able to keep his OBP around .300-.330 would make him pretty useful, at least as a 4th outfielder.

you know what's crazy? He walked more as an extremely young pitcher in MLB than he does now as a hitter in AAA, which is weird because you would think guys in the majors would never pitch around a pitcher, but guys in AAA might pitch around the leading slugger on the opposing team.

In the majors he walked once every 14.5 ABs
In AAA he walks once every 18.8 ABs

If he still walked at the rate he did in the majors, that would add almost 20 points to his AAA OBP. His translated OBP still wouldn't be pretty, but it would be a step in the right direction.

He has 6 career ML walks.

Sort of a modern-day Smokey Joe Wood. He was never in Wood's class as a pitcher, and he probably won't be as a hitter either. Nevertheless, any baseball fan has to appreciate the way history can repeat itself.

Good luck to the lad. He's persistent. And that is an admirable trait.

He has 6 career ML walks.

I know. It's all small sample sizes at this point. I just thought it was interesting.

How strong is the "no pitching" prohibition. He would be more valuable as a sometimes pitcher, see Brooks Kieschnick.

BTW I hope Rick plays the outfield better than Kieschnick.

I don't ever root for anyone but the Yankees to fail. So I wouldn't go so far as to say I hope he has no success. I just hope is success is limited. He is a spoiled whiney crybaby. Headcase wacko.

Despite his low OBP, are the Cardinals certain he isn't one of their 3 best OFers right now?

Matthew:

That seems unduly harsh. The young man has worked through his issues and is trying to succeed in his profession. Not dissimilar to Jim Eisenreich. I don't think Jim is/was a "headcase wacko".

And whatever he may have said once upon a time in the recent past he has done nothing but focus on getting better at the game in a completely different role. That speaks to the grit of the individual.

What am I missing?

Does anyone know how much time has ticked off of his service clock and where he will stand in terms of arbitration if he becomes a full-time MLB player?

Harvey - I don't really want to go into it, because I'm afraid if I do my feelings will come off as being harsher than I intend. Well also that, and the liberal nut jobs (effectionatly) on the site will continue to call me names. With that said, Jim Eisenreich has a disease - Tourettes. Rick Ankiel sort of does as well, lack of mental toughness. The difference is Ankiels isn't brought upon by nature or god or what have you. Instead the comon cause are pampered upbringing, the easy life, and personal refusal to do what has to be done. I can't imagine being Rick Ankiel and going to my family and saying:

"I know God reached down and turned my right arm into a thunderbolt, and I've never had control problems in my life. But now I have this block, and I can't do it, I just can't throw strikes. I know I've proven I can do it before, and its not mechinical or physical but I'm walking proof of the million dollar arm and the ten cent head, so I'm going to quit"

Sorry, I can't wish for the best for a guy who has that conversation. I root for guys who battle adversity, and who win. Not guys who give into it, and just happen to be so damn talented they can find another way to get by, but not be the world beater he could have been.

wow. just wow. I'd like to think you're f**king with us, but I have a feeling you're serious.

From what I remember about Ankiel "pampered upbringing and easy life" are not words that describe his background - at least until he signed his pro contract.

I can't imagine being Rick Ankiel and going to my family and saying:

"I know God reached down and turned my right arm into a thunderbolt, and I've never had control problems in my life. But now I have this block, and I can't do it, I just can't throw strikes. I know I've proven I can do it before, and its not mechinical or physical but I'm walking proof of the million dollar arm and the ten cent head, so I'm going to quit"

Given HIS family, that would probably be no problem for him to tell them that.

Given HIS family, that would probably be no problem for him to tell them that.

Of course not, because they impowered him to be the spoiled whiney crybaby headcase wacko that he is.

Oh by the way, "if anyone claims me off waiver i'm retiring." wah - I'm taking my ball and going home.

I don't think it does any good to blame Ankiel for something that I don't understand. If his inability to pitch with control is simply "lack of mental toughness" then Matt, you have nothing to worry about, because without mental toughness there's no chance in hades of Ankiel making the needed adjustments once MLB pitchers exploit the holes in his swing.

For what it's worth, Ankiel's problems are almost certainly related to a diagnosable mental illness, probably some sort of anxiety disorder. You may not think that such a cause would qualify as natural or heaven-sent, but it can be extremely crippling with strong physical effects and no amount of mental conviction can overcome it. I don't blame you for not being totally familiar with that sort of affliction, but you're definitely being overly harsh toward a problem you're probably not fully understanding (not that I am, but it's Ankiel's adversity and not ours). Bottom line, I doubt he ever consciously decided that the effort of overcoming his problems was too great, so he would just give up instead.

For what it's worth, Ankiel's problems are almost certainly related to a diagnosable mental illness, probably some sort of anxiety disorder.

Whatever it is I would guess it's similar to what happened to Neighborgall in college- I'd like to see Rauseo diagnose him...

Matt,

I'm not sure if you're saying you think Rick Ankiel had a pampered family life or if that's just a normal cause for this type of "situation." But his family life was anything but pampered.

I'd like to see Rauseo diagnose him...

I'm not trying to diagnose anyone. Just explaining to Harvey why I don't root for him.

Dan, Obviously I didn't expect to Ankeils dad as a ex-con, however, that doesn't really change my thoughts that he was likely pampered. My mother is a teacher, I worked for a time as a substitute while trying to figure out what I wanted to do. The town I we worked had an unusually large class divide. Some of the most spoiled, pampered, children were the ones who grew up with home situations similar to Ankiels.

and again i hate MHS. good job, dood. you're a prick, and i hope you're afflicted with a crippling mental illness so i can tell you to get the #### over it and that all your problems are due to having been mollycoddled as a youngster.

also, it's "affectionately" and "empowered." you slovenly drunk.

I'm not trying to diagnose anyone. Just explaining to Harvey why I don't root for him.

Dan, Obviously I didn't expect to Ankeils dad as a ex-con, however, that doesn't really change my thoughts that he was likely pampered. My mother is a teacher, I worked for a time as a substitute while trying to figure out what I wanted to do. The town I we worked had an unusually large class divide. Some of the most spoiled, pampered, children were the ones who grew up with home situations similar to Ankiels.

That comes off like you're saying that you had it really hard while anyone you don't happen to like had it easy and was pampered. And the guy didn't quit. He has worked really hard to go down a different path, one that he doesn't have the same natural ability. I have no definite idea of what keeps him from throwing strikes. But I know it has happened to a number of people who did just quit. Or who worked really hard, doing everything right and still failed. Your expectation that if someone is mentally tough and works hard that everything will turn out fine is as unbelievably stupid as the idea that anyone who fails is a spoiled, pampered kid who lacks character. Failure, when doing everything right, happens. If you haven't yet experienced that, it would likely do you some good.

For what it's worth, I don't love the way he reacted - when he was 20 - to public humiliation and, likely, his first real failure. But he has rebounded marvelously and has recovered a great deal of dignity.

I think you'll have a hard time labeling me a liberal nut-job but have at if you like.

Come now. That's not really the appropriate response. Nobody is saying that you have an obligation to root for Ankiel, but it's not very productive to call him names and pass judgment on his fortitude in situations where we know the details of only the most superficial layer. Then again, I don't think it's terribly productive to start calling each other names, either. Not really the best way to engender a productive dialogue. If we had our wits about us, we would probably be discussing something like the similarities and differences between Ankiel and other players who have had mental breakdowns of some sort. I can't really think of any who rebounded so effectively. Maybe some golfers who go through more of the ups and downs, but none immediately come to mind.

Matthew:

The brain is a funny thing.

I honestly don't know if someone who was pampered growing up would endure riding buses in the minor leagues, getting interviewed all the time about his situation, deal with failure at the minor league level, cope with taunts from onlookers in the minor leagues, and pretty much reinvent himself as a ballplayer. I don't associate that type of behavior with someone who was coddled at some point in their life.

Barring Ankiel being some "trust fund" kid who has been able to finance some form of "finding himself" the last seven years, I fail to see the signs of narcissism or self-absorption.

But again, I am not a diehard Cardinal follower so perhaps there are other stories out there of which I am unaware.

And yes, when my son was nine and the power was out and I had him stay with me on the farm while everyone else went to their grandmother's and it was January and we slept in the barn with small fires burning up and down the concrete aisle to keep the hogs warm and he started to cry around midnight I told him to stop. I was there and I told him everything was going to be fine. This was an adventure. What is there to worry about? But I never called him on it the next day for being afraid. Kids, heck adults, get afraid. And sometimes no matter what you do you can't get past it.

"I know God reached down and turned my right arm into a thunderbolt, and I've never had control problems in my life. But now I have this block, and I can't do it, I just can't throw strikes. I know I've proven I can do it before, and its not mechinical or physical but I'm walking proof of the million dollar arm and the ten cent head, so I'm going to quit"

Matt, when did he say this to his family? Oh, that's right, you made it up.

Anyway, this isn't about being a "liberal nut job", it's about not being a moron. Do you really think Ankiel's problems come from not working hard enough, or not being smart enough? The guy underwent TJ surgery and then, after converting to the outfield, knee surgery as well. And your claim that he never had control problems before isn't really accurate...not Mark Wohlers control issues, but the guy did walk 90 in 175 innings as a rookie.

I don't have any knowledge of what goes on inside Ankiel's head, and I certainly wouldn't presume to tell him what he owes his family or what he should say to them. But it seems to me like he is pursuing the path that gives him the most certainty of being a solid major league player again, rather than taking the path with the higher potential reward but higher risk. Given what a fourth outfielder in MLB makes, I could see him believing that was the financially responsible path to take.

Matt, how do you explain the amount of time you spend posting on BTF to your family?

MHS's view is pretty consistent with many in the general public, which is why there is still a long road ahead for acceptance of mental disorders.

Here is a NYT Magazine article from February 2001. It explains his background.

The weird thing to me is that the most dynamic people I know tend to be coddled trust fund kids. I mean, for a certain type of person, if you grow up with everything then you never again worry about having things. And a lack of worry is the greatest thing in the world for developing mental toughness.

MHS's view is pretty consistent with many in the general public, which is why there is still a long road ahead for acceptance of mental disorders.

Yes, but- where has it been established that Ankiel has a mental disorder? There is a non-zero chance that Matt is at least partially right.

Personally I irrationally dislked Ankiel when he first came up for the same reason I rooted against Drew (all 3 of em) and Van Poppel and a few others.
Now I have mixed feelings...

Wow, Mister High Standards. Remind me not to sit next to you at the ballpark. You seem not nice, in a working-very-hard-at-being-not-nice kind of way.

Maybe you need to read some Tolstoy or Chekhov, or just a dictionary--try the entry for "empathy."

Good luck to Ankiel. I hope he succeeds.

I should add that you guys can root for whoever the hell you like. But not rooting for someone is a lot different than labeling them pampered, spoiled, whiners just because you don't like how they reacted to public failure. Attributing all manner of negative character traits to someone you don't know isn't any smarter than attributing positive character traits. If you think you know them well enough from the published literature on Mr. Ankiel, fine. But,MHS, you clearly didn't all that much detail of his life.

Anyway, sure there is chance he's just a loser and scared little spoiled kid. But, as Harvey described, it sure is hard to see any evidence for it.

In baseball terms, throwing strikes and locating pitches is a skill. It's a very important skill. There have been lots of rifle-armed shortstops and outfielders who wouldn't have made good pitchers because they couldn't do it. Whether it's mostly physical, mostly mental or a combination, Ankiel doesn't seem to have that skill. Acknowledging that and working hard at something else is, IMO, an admirable trait. Sheer bloodymindedness is, general, stupid. And the sign of the spoiled.

The thing about anxiety disorder such as what Ankiel had, is that harder you try and the more it matters to you to have the success that the anxiety is inhibiting, the more difficult it is to overcome. People who don't give a #### don't get this kind of thing. They just go on and live their merry little life without a care in the world. I guarantee you that Rick Ankiel has been to hell and back over the past six years. And now he's standing on the precipice of the major leagues as a hitter. As far as I'm concerned, Rick Ankiel doesn't have to prove his mental toughness to anybody.

If Ankiel was an African American Outfielder in the Mets or Devil Rays system, many people would be questioning whether he deserved a second chance, let alone a ninth, or tenth or whatever.

I don't dislike Ankiel and I am fine with him doing fine. But I do think the opportunity he has is not in line with any sort of potential. Potential is a funny thing after all -- there are those who are always remembered for their potential but rarely do you hear/read anything about players who have fulfilled it. You rarely hear, "Boy, Player X is sure meeting his potential!"

So in a way, I can see where other minor league ballplayers, working with less, knowing they are on a much shorter time line would have reason to be jealous or angry.

I would strongly suspect, as others have mentioned earlier, that Ankiel (and others with Steve Blass syndrome) may suffer from social anxiety disorder.

I always think it's funny seeing people use non-zero arguments on this website - this is almost like reading about infinite improbability drives.

And just to make sure I don't begin any flame wars: Matt might be right, I just think that it's more likely to be another explanation. There is no way to prove it without someone violating HIPAA and looking at Ankiel's medical records, or unless Ankiel publicly announces his underlying problem.

If Ankiel was an African American Outfielder in the Mets or Devil Rays system, many people would be questioning whether he deserved a second chance, let alone a ninth, or tenth or whatever.

Really, because African-Americans like Darryl Strawberry and Doc Gooden never get second or third or fourth chances in America.

I always think it's funny seeing people use non-zero arguments on this website - this is almost like reading about infinite improbability drives.

I oprefer to use Bistro Math myself

Wait, wait, wait: Matt "might be right" about what? Let's make one thing perfectly clear: Matt ain't right about #### in this instance. He's pulling crap out of his butt and smearing it all over a guy who (a) is probably twice as mentally and physically tough as he is; and (b) ascended to the very height of his profession in two very different skill-sets. There is no evidence of all of "lack of mental toughness." Matt, however, is showing off a lack of mental acuity. Hah!

Just to expand on my point earlier about his control, while Ankiel had the million dollar arm (or the $2.5 million arm), it wasn't certain that he would become a superstar...it never is with a young pitcher. He had great stuff and looked close to putting it all together, but he could have become the next Kerry Wood, too.

If Ankiel was an African American Outfielder in the Mets or Devil Rays system, many people would be questioning whether he deserved a second chance, let alone a ninth, or tenth or whatever.

I don't know...guys like Gooden and Strawberry got plenty of second chances, too. Granted, they had proven more at the ML level, but Ankiel clearly has world-class power and if he can put it all together he'll be a very useful major leaguer. I don't think anyone is giving him second chances out of the goodness of their hearts. They think he can be a good major league player and are giving him a chance out of self-interest.

I would strongly suspect, as others have mentioned earlier, that Ankiel (and others with Steve Blass syndrome) may suffer from social anxiety disorder.


I have had/do have the yips and I think there is a good possibility I have some form or variant of SAD as well.

If Ankiel was an African American Outfielder in the Mets or Devil Rays system, many people would be questioning whether he deserved a second chance, let alone a ninth, or tenth or whatever.

Er, where is the African American OF in the Mets or Devil Rays system who has been booted to the curb after one failure?

Er, where is the African American OF in the Mets or Devil Rays system who has been booted to the curb after one failure?

Not booted to the curb, but criticized and maybe dismissed. I don't really remember what was said after Ankiel's first series of failures, but I don't think it was as harsh as Dukes or Milledge or Young.

I guess the cases are completely different, that was sort of spur of the moment. I retract that.

As Archie Bunker would say, "It was sperm of the moment." Retraction accepted.

Cool, CiC. FWIW, the criticism of Milledge has been way over the top, IMO, and I think there has been a racial element to it. I'm not so sure on Young and with Dukes he probably hasn't been criticized emough. However, as pointed out by Dave, as long as it looks like these guys can play, they'll stick around.

Harvey - I appreciate your perspective.

A lot of the reaction in this thread was fairly predicatable, and why I didn't really want to go into it.

For some reason I thought of Josh Hamilton. Might be comparing apples and oranges, but he and Ankiel are a couple of real feel-good stories. I thought Ankiel was a pretty great pitcher when he came up, and it surprised me when he decided to quit pitching and start working on his hitting. To his credit, he's on track to make the major leagues again with his bat. I'd love to see him make it back and get a standing ovation. ...And then for LaRussa to tell the press he's thinking about using Ankiel as a short reliever in tight spots. ; )

With that said, Jim Eisenreich has a disease - Tourettes. Rick Ankiel sort of does as well, lack of mental toughness. The difference is Ankiels isn't brought upon by nature or god or what have you. Instead the comon cause are pampered upbringing, the easy life, and personal refusal to do what has to be done.

Of course, before Tourette's was commonly diagnosed, understood and treated kids were just blamed for not being able to control their tics. So, if someone comes up for a name for Ankiel's problem and diagnoses a few other cases, can MHS start rooting for him? Until his disorder gets a proper name, he should feel free to keep bashing him for lack of mental toughness.

If you really don't want to get into it, does that mean you take your mousepad and go home?

I think you lack the mental toughness to fight for your opinion.

A lot of the reaction in this thread was fairly predicatable, and why I didn't really want to go into it.

Hey, no problem; not everyone's mentally tough enough to press unpopular views.

Ankiel is like that Brendan Frazier character from "The Scout". Life imitates art I guess.

Matt will be back after he finishes his shift at the Suicide Hotline.

I'd root for Ankiel coming back as a pitcher. As a hitter, I'm pretty indifferent. I don't think he's a ##### or anything, but I'm disappointed, maybe frustrated that he never figured out how to pitch again. I don't think it's some kind of a moral victory that he's going to make it back as a hitter either.

He'll have an interesting BB-ref page when he comes back though.

I don't think it's some kind of a moral victory that he's going to make it back as a hitter either.

If Ankiel provides significant value as a majopr leaguer in pretty much any role, I think it's an incredible moral victory. I think he's already "won" in the sense that he's worked so hard to be a baseball player with the odds so stacked against him when he could have bought a car dealership or something and allowed himself to fall into obscurity.

He's one of my favorite stories in baseball and I hope he succeeds against every team but the Mets.

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but if Ankiel has some sort of emotional/mental problem that he's fighting past, I think that makes him more praiseworthy, not less so.

Sorry to interrupt this argument, but here's some baseball news.

Maroth must really not have much trade value - the article doesn't even say who's going back.

Ankiel did figure out how to pitch again. He threw 33.2 innings in 2004, issuing three walks and one wild pitch. The impetus for the change was being freaked out by a twinge in his elbow in winter ball, not an inability to throw the ball where he wanted it.

God, I thought Maroth was worth a bit more than that.

The comments on Rosenthal's article are priceless:

Hey Ken, nice story!! Did they get him for free?
They pay you for half a story?
At least this was free....

God, I thought Maroth was worth a bit more than that.

I bet 28 other GMs did too.

The trade hasn't been reported yet, so maybe Rosenthal didn't have all the details. Give him a break.

-- MWE

Mike, I was joking.

Hard to see Maroth being worth much. He's getting hit hard, lots of homers, too many walks, not many strikeouts. Not much to like, other than he shows up every 5th day. I guess that's better than what St Louis has lately.

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but if Ankiel has some sort of emotional/mental problem that he's fighting past, I think that makes him more praiseworthy, not less so.

It puts you in the minority of "everyone but MHS."

As for you, MHS, I just cannot believe how ridiculous it is to play the role of the besieged martyr when your INITIAL "contribution" to the thread was this: I don't ever root for anyone but the Yankees to fail. So I wouldn't go so far as to say I hope he has no success. I just hope is success is limited. He is a spoiled whiney crybaby. Headcase wacko.

So you didn't want to "get into it" eh? Then why did you behave like a jerk?

Clearly, you are unfamiliar with the works of Mister High Standards.

So you didn't want to "get into it" eh? Then why did you behave like a jerk?

I all fairness I should have said: He exhibits the traits of a spoiled whiney crybaby. Headcase wacko. Since I don't know the lad. But besides that I wasn't nearly the jerk in this thread that many were. But thats pretty much SOP.

I feel bad for you, with all these mean jerks being mean and jerky to you. And for what? :(

So you didn't want to "get into it" eh? Then why did you behave like a jerk?

Behave? Come on people. He's entitled to his opinion, which I disagreed with, but whatever. I don't see anything written in this thread by MHS that qualifies as behaving like a jerk. Perhaps I'd have a different opinion if I was Rick Ankiel, but I'm not, and neither are the rest of you.

But besides that I wasn't nearly the jerk in this thread that many were. But thats pretty much SOP.

I nominate JRE as biggest jerk of this thread, what, with his "baseball news" link and all. Knock it off with that #### already!

I don't see anything written in this thread by MHS that qualifies as behaving like a jerk.

Ahem:

Harvey - I don't really want to go into it, because I'm afraid if I do my feelings will come off as being harsher than I intend. Well also that, and the liberal nut jobs (effectionatly) on the site will continue to call me names.

I'm glad that this thread happened so that I know that MHS is officially an #######.

Perhaps I'd have a different opinion if I was Rick Ankiel, but I'm not, and neither are the rest of you.

In fairness, Rick Ankiel tried to post in this thread but couldn't stop pressing the delete key.

In fairness, Rick Ankiel tried to post in this thread but couldn't stop pressing the delete key.

Or he did post, but his post went over all of our heads.

In fairness, Rick Ankiel tried to post in this thread but couldn't stop pressing the delete key.

Or he did post, but his post went over all of our heads.

That's true, but he's doing a hell of a job posting on the Clemens thread.

But thats pretty much SOP.

quit whining, overpriviledged crybaby.

Rauseo's mother was a teacher?

She wasn't a very good teacher, that's for sure.

Up here in Toronto , sportsnet did a small piece on Ankiel that featured footage of a scout from St louis ( who sadly went unamed in the piece) saying that Ankiels early sucess was his undoing, " he has awful mechanics and refuses to listen to any instruction" which to me seemed to ring very true.

Funny, I always used to hear about how great and smooth and natural Ankiel's delivery was. I myself have no idea, I know nothing of pitching mechanics. Maybe CBW is around to offer some analysis...

On second thought, attacking his mother was a really bad thing to have done. It's not necessarily her fault that our friend Rausseo turned out this way.

the clip was obviously an older one, I seem to recall it was before Ankiels disasterous return to triple A, and his unwillingness to change seemed to be supported by things that Ankiel himself said during the piece, he basically refused to accept any of the responsibilty for his failures as his own, and came across as aloof and arrogant. I find myself in the "dont care for the guy" camp, though not out of any dislike for his family or upbringing, he just came across as unpleasant in this piece, however that could be just a small sample size issue for me, perhaps there are reams of articles out there where Ankiel takes the mea culpa approach.