The Big Book of Baseball Legends is your sixth book in nine years. You have become almost as prolific in writing books as The Beatles were in producing records during the 1960s.

I know this it nitpicking, but then again this is BTF. Nitpicking is what we do here.

1963 Please Please Me
1963 With the Beatles
1964 A Hard Day's Night
1964 Beatles for Sale
1965 Help!
1965 Rubber Soul
1966 Revolver
1967 Sgt. Pepper
1967 Magical Mystery Tour
1968 The Beatles (double album)
1969 Abbey Road
1970 Let it Be

Plus, the Yellow Submarine thing. That's double Neyer's pace.

It should be noted, by the way, that The Beatles' first two singles bombed in the US.

-- MWE

What kind of release were they given?

This book arrived Saturday. I'm halfway through it so far. I've said before that this is what Rob is best at and so far the book isn't making me change my mind.

got all of The Beatles CDs and all of your books. Both are important parts of my music and baseball libraries. The good news is that we don’t have to worry about Rob Neyer breaking up. Or do we?

smooooooooooooooooooch

"Please Please Me", the Beatles' first US single, was turned down by Capitol Records and eventually released by Vee-Jay Records; it sold just over 7000 copies on initial release. "From Me to You", the second single, was also released by Vee-Jay, but Del Shannon picked it up and covered it at the same time, which ate into the Beatles' sales. Vee-Jay didn't have the resources at the time to promote the Beatles very much. Capitol, in late 1963, picked up "I Want to Hold Your Hand", and backed it with a massive promotional campaign to launch the group.

-- MWE

well, I guess this just confirms what we always knew

Rob Neyer is bigger than Jesus

Well, sure. Jesus was what, about five foot six?

The two books I was most looking forward to reading this spring were Bill James' Gold Mine and this one. I just finished the Gold Mine, and was most disappointed. It has very little writing - most of the oversized pages are taken up with charts like an analysis of Travis Hafner's RBIs - and I had already read at least a third of it on the Bill James Online site.

Let's hope Rob doesn't similarly let me down.

I'll second that take on the new James book, which I just finished myself. Far too many charts and way too little writing or analysis. Next time I'll go to a bookstore for it instead of using Amazon like the lazy MF that I sometimes am.

And yes, I know that it's more than a little ironic that I didn't think of that before....

1965 Rubber Soul
1966 Revolver
1967 Sgt. Pepper
1967 Magical Mystery Tour
1968 The Beatles (double album)
1969 Abbey Road

That's a pretty good five year peak. What's a baseball analogy for the Beatles? Incredibly high peak, short career, but enough value in the short career to be on par or above pretty much anyone else. They're kinda like Sandy Koufax if Sandy Koufax had actually been as good as most people think he was. (BTW, I love Sandy Koufax - this is not the time or the place for that argument!). Maybe Joe Dimaggio?

Incredibly high peak, short career, but enough value in the short career to be on par or above pretty much anyone else.

Koufax is probably the guy everyone will point to first.
Albert Belle had a pretty awesome peak

I think Pedro is the new Sandy. Martinez has been around awhile but really the pertinent part of his career ended some time ago. Now he's just filling in the corners...................

Incredibly high peak, short career, but enough value in the short career to be on par or above pretty much anyone else.

If Albert Pujols is forced to retire at the end of this season, that would be a pretty good match.

Band/ballplayer analogies are tough because nearly all successful bands have some modest hits early on and then spend decades dining out on that fact. Most star bands are Jeff Conine or B.J. Surhoff.

have some modest hits early on and then spend decades dining out on that fact. Most star bands are Jeff Conine or B.J. Surhoff.

Rick Cerone says hi

I don't know about that "nearly all" thing there.

I'd agree with "many."

I think if Pedro had retired instead of signing the Mets contract, he'd be a perfect fit. Even the Dodgers/Expos years match up well - Help! fits the 1997 Expos season, perhaps? Then the Red Sox years coincide with the Rubber Soul - Abbey Road stretch. Call 2005 Pedro's "Let it Be" season, and just forget the rest...

Incredibly high peak, short career, but enough value in the short career to be on par or above pretty much anyone else.

Short career? Well, only 8 years, but they released 12 albums in those 8 years -- one of those a double album. Meanwhile, it took U2 over 20 years to get to 14 albums.

I think Pedro is the new Sandy.

Naw, Koufax would work better. Beatles had so much quantity per year - much like Koufax. I know no one pitches as much these days as they did in the 1960s, but then again artists don't write & record albums as quickly as they did during the Beatles day.

The best analogy is actually the 1906-1910 Cubs. Tremendous work done in an amazing collaboration of talent. Yet, once that old gang of theirs broke up, everyone faltered. Neither Tinker, Evers, nor Chance are widely conceded to be deserving HoFers. Mordecai Brown wasn't as good after blowing out his arm in 1911. Jimmy Sheckard had the best career but was never the big star. To make the analogy further:

Sheckard: George Harrison - never the big star, but certainly had his moments. And stayed productive long after everyone else (from My Sweet Lord to Handle Me with Care is almost 20 years).

Brown: Ringo Starr - both known for their nicknames. Maybe it's not fair to Brown as he was a great pitcher, but then again he also leaned heavily on his defenses. And Ringo was a helluva drummer.

Tinker & Evers - Lennon & McCartney. Not sure how they should be divided up. In both cases, the pair worked closely together for years. In both cases, they didn't speak to each other for a while. The Cubs were built on run prevention, which centered on Tinker & Evers D. The Beatles, obviously, rotated on the Lennon-McCartney song writing axis.

Chance - George Martin. Peerless leader who washed out in all his other managerial gigs. Peerless producer whose career also foundered away.

Edited because Post #20 noticed I said "George Harrison" when I meant to say "George Martin" at the end. Nice catch. Thanx. Now post #20 doesn't make sense. Ah, well.

Chance - George <s>Harrison</s> Martin. Peerless leader who washed out in all his other managerial gigs. Peerless producer whose career also foundered away.

edit: shoot, it looked right in preview.

edit again: well, I often don't make any sense. at least this time, I can blame you.

I'd agree with "many."

I'll accept that as a friendly amendment :)

The Beatles, of course, are often amazing to think about because if they'd only had one of about 30 of their hits they would still be celebrated. Every few months somebody like, say, a drummer for the Turtles dies, and news shows play a clip of "Happy Together," and you think, man, the Beatles had at least two dozen songs like that. And as several people have mentioned, they had them in the space of seven or eight years ...

I have the Beatles = Babe Ruth. They were the best, and they changed the rules of the game for everyone who followed. The early breakup messes up the analogy somewhat, but measured in albums, the Beatles' career wasn't especially short. The Hamburg/Cavern Club years can be Ruth's pitching career.

I also have Bob Dylan = Ted Williams: A much narrower but incredibly highly developed talent. Plus you have motorcycle accident = World War II, Christian period = Korean War, "Love and Theft" = 1960 comeback, Theme Time Radio Hour = Hub Fans Bid Kid Adieu.

Sandy Koufax = Creedence Clearwater Revival. I'm pretty sure of that one. I actually have a list of about 200 of these, going all the way down to Dean Chance = The Toys. I should probably post them on my web site.

Actually, the best analogy for the Beatles probably comes from another sport... Michael Jordan (if he had stayed retired after 1998) or Bill Russell, Bobby Orr (I really like this one actually), or Jim Brown. There aren't very many short career inner-circle superstars in baseball... even guys like Ruth hung on till 40. Koufax is probably the closest, but few people would argue that Koufax is clearly the best of all time. Jordan (minus the post-second-retirement), Russell, Orr, Jim Brown... many people played a lot more than those guys, but they are still all counted amongst the inner-est circle players in their sports.

I'll accept that as a friendly amendment :)

When amn't I friendly? 8-)

And as several people have mentioned, they had them in the space of seven or eight years ...

Maybe the Turtles duo should've taken more drugs. I was almost literally floored (that's right, I said it, "almost") when McCartney revealed that "Got To Get You into My Life" was about marijuana. (That's not a joke, he really said that.)

1965 Help!
1965 Rubber Soul
1966 Revolver
1967 Sgt. Pepper
1967 Magical Mystery Tour
1968 The Beatles (double album)
1969 Abbey Road

Just wanted to point out that the five year peak actually includes "Help!" which is important because "Help!" is incredibly awesome. Furthermore, once you consider that "Let It Be" was essentially recorded between "The Beatles" and "Abbey Road," it becomes even more ridiculous. And, to take baseball-style nerdiness to the next level, if you adjust for the fact that the version(s) of the "Let It Be" album that Phil Spector didn't screw up are superior, that's potentially another boost.

Bottom line: the Beatles' entire career after "Please Please Me" was essentially "peak" when you adjust for the era they played in. It's such an absurdly awesome career that it almost defies comprehension.

It also leaves out "Hey Jude," which wasn't a proper album, just a collection of leftover singles, but is still a better album than most bands ever make: "Can't Buy Me Love," "Paperback Writer," "Rain," "Lady Madonna," "Revolution," "Hey Jude," etc.

Just wanted to point out that the five year peak actually includes "Help!" which is important because "Help!" is incredibly awesome. Furthermore, once you consider that "Let It Be" was essentially recorded between "The Beatles" and "Abbey Road," it becomes even more ridiculous. And, to take baseball-style nerdiness to the next level, if you adjust for the fact that the version(s) of the "Let It Be" album that Phil Spector didn't screw up are superior, that's potentially another boost.

It also includes many fabulous singles that never made it to any of these albums (e.g., "Paperback Writer", "Rain", "Day Tripper", etc.). Maybe that's analogous to postseason excellence.

No one wants to talk about the book?

Yeah, you can roll the entirety of "Past Masters, Volume Two" in there as well (excepting "Let It Be" and "You Know My Name (Look Up The Number)", which should account for all the missing singles. Furthermore, you can add the last three tracks off of "Past Masters, Volume One" ("Bad Boy", "Yes It Is", and "I'm Down").

I don't think you can include "Hey Jude" as an album since it was a US release, not technically part of the official canon (though strangely the US "Magical Mystery Album" is considered "official canon" and the British EP is not, presumably to avoid having to include the extra singles on another compilation). "Past Masters, Volume Two" covers all the same singles as "Hey Jude" from the 1965-1969 time frame, which would leave out "Can't Buy Me Love," which is fair as it was a 1964 song.

No one wants to talk about the book?

I spent my lunch hour today thumbing through it in Borders. I've been reading about baseball obsessively for a solid 30+ years and have to admit I am unfamiliar with at least three-quarters of the "legends" Rob writes about. What's the fun of telling a story most people have never heard before, then pointing out how it's inaccurate?

I think everyone is missing the analogies of the Beatles. It sounds like everyone agrees they had a MASSIVE peak that was plenty long, but they didn't have much after that - no filler seasons. That sounds a lot like some old school pitchers, like Kid Nichols or Ed Walsh or Al Spalding (depending on how extreme you wish to go). Smoked everyone with quality AND volume for a fair amount of time, then nothing.

Some of those were good stories, though. The bean factory one? Hilarious. Not sure if I would've led off with it. I may have saved it for last.

Shouldn't PEDs fit in the analogies somewhere?

Maybe it's not fair to Brown as he was a great pitcher, but then again he also leaned heavily on his defenses.

He got by with a little help from his friends?

I think everyone is missing the analogies of the Beatles. It sounds like everyone agrees they had a MASSIVE peak that was plenty long, but they didn't have much after that - no filler seasons.

Wrong sport, then: Barry Sanders.

Who's the real musical Sandy Koufax? Buddy Holly?

Who's the real musical Sandy Koufax?

I'm going to say Hendrix - short but incredibly successful peak, impressive enough to leave a lasting impression. Also, played in an era very favorable to his style - seriously, do you think he would be as revered today if half his audiance wasn't tripping?

Ooh, good call, Hendrix totally skipped my mind for some reason. I like that one a lot, especially since each of them closed their careers with the best work of their careers (though I may be in the minority in thinking that Band of Gypsys is the best thing Hendrix ever did).

Who's the real musical Sandy Koufax?

Hardly rock'n'roll, but Van Cliburn was the top US classical pianist in the Cold War 1950s and then pretty much dropped out of sight.

No, classical pianists will not do for baseball analogies. Van Cliburn is more like the musical Dick Button.

So most of the history of music is a lame sideshow?

Chance - George Harrison Martin. Peerless leader who washed out in all his other managerial gigs. Peerless producer whose career also foundered away.

edit: shoot, it looked right in preview.

edit again: well, I often don't make any sense. at least this time, I can blame you.

You have to know the secret password. Then your strikeouts will get struck out and stay that way.

What you gotta do is spell it out: "strike", not "s". I leave it to you to figure out how to articulate the meta form "left angle bracket, s-t-r-i-k-e, right angle bracket" without making a complete mess of things.

So most of the history of music is a lame sideshow?

Certainly not! Feel free to analogize other classical pianists to other notable ice skaters.

In the Foreword, Bill James tells a story about a scene in a movie he recalls as Shattered Glass wherein a young reporter rises to the top of his profession in short order by “just making #### up.” As it turns out, the scene is actually from Absence of Malice

I haven't read the book yet, but somebody's still screwed up here wrt these two movies. The newspaper reporter in Absence of Malice (played by Sally Field) doesn't "make #### up", but instead is deliberately fed inaccurate information by an ambitious and dishonest Federal prosecutor, and she never rises to the top of her profession (far from it). The reporter in Shattered Glass does indeed make #### up, and does rise to the top of his profession before getting found out and fired from his magazine in disgrace.

Now I have to buy the book just to find out what these two guys were really talking about. :-)

Bottom line: the Beatles' entire career after "Please Please Me" was essentially "peak" when you adjust for the era they played in. It's such an absurdly awesome career that it almost defies comprehension.

You're just gonna leave out Please Please Me? Blasphemy! The best pre-Rubber Soul album and better than a number of the ones after it.

And I always thought Shoeless Joe was a decent, if admittedly imperfect comp. Short career that was essentially all peak with a couple ridiculous years thrown in (though his were at the beginning, and the Beatles' were at the end). Not a high enough peak, I know, but it's the best I can think of. Might as well just call them Babe Ruth though.

Edit: Now I'm thinking, based on the quotation marks, that you meant "Please Please Me" the single, not Please Please Me the album, in which case you are forgiven.