Well, that's totally insane.

Get a room.

This is why so many people dislike the Yankees and Jeter. It's not Jeter's fault, but there it is...

Of course, steroids-addled Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens have to be up there somewhere, too.

I don't think the writer knows what "addled" means.

This is the best "Maury Allen" parody yet, but shouldn't Repoz have saved his best for when he was ready to retire?

But for my money, Jeter is the game’s No. 1 player, now and forever. Sorry about that, Babe.

A Yankee fan where I work is vocally like this as well. Even the other Yankee fans try to hide behind their staplers or bolt for the bathroom when he starts in.

I think he's in the discussion for all-time best SS. But all-time best player? I think that's just Allen stating the outrageous in order to get people to pay attention to him.

But for my money, Jeter is the game’s No. 1 player, now and forever. Sorry about that, Babe.

You should be more sorry about using hallucinogenic drugs at your age, Maury.

Even orthodox statheads that hate sabermetrics are going to think Allen is full of it (which he is).

Jeter is the game’s No. 1 player, now and forever.

Forever? At least until the year 2243 when a trihyzadoc from the planet Arod bats .878 leading the Cubs to their first pennant in hundreds of years, of course they lose the Galaxial Series to Uranus.

I thought the topic title was referring to #1 SS, and I was going to come in here and complain about Honus Wagner. But he meant #1 PLAYER?!?!

I think he's in the discussion for all-time best SS.

Oh, come on. You want to stand him up next to Wagner? Go ahead, I'll wait.

You can put him in the conversation for #2, though, assuming he continues to age so gracefully.

I didn't say he was the #1 SS of all time, Joe. Just that a discussion of that position should probably include Derek.

Larry Mahnken may be the sexiest man alive.

Hey! Take it to the Sizemore "gay socialite" thread.

I thought the topic title was referring to #1 SS, and I was going to come in here and complain about Honus Wagner. But he meant #1 PLAYER?!?!

same here.

... to Uranus.

Heh heh.

it's been brought up numerous times (by me and others) that there is a parallel between Jeter and Joe D in that, although they were both great ballplayers, they are absurdly overrated by a vocal subset of NY fans (Toots Shor and others in the case of Joe D)

"Greatest living ballplayer"? Will Jetes insist on that introduction 25-30 years from now?

I think he's in the discussion for all-time best SS.

Oh, come on. You want to stand him up next to Wagner? Go ahead, I'll wait.

I didn't say he was the #1 SS of all time, Joe.

.

Does this exchange count as being "in the discussion?" Because it is the longest possible discussion I can imagine on the topic.

Allen got it wrong in his original list (Babe Ruth only 3rd?) so it's no surprise he's a bit off on this, too. TVErik has in right in post # 6 - even wrong opinions, strongly stated, create a buzz that, in its day, sold newspapers, and now creates Internet traffic. Not sure if it's a concious ploy on Allen's part. Perhaps he was just overly influenced by Jeter's Sportsman of the Year honor.

That said, Jeter isn't too far away from trailing only Honus Wagner on the All-Time Shortstop list, assuming you use criteria that credits the length of one's career at the position.

I am not at all sure that Jeter is the best active ballplayer. Come to think of it, I don't believe that he's the best ballplayer on the Yankees today, though I think he's by far the best Yankee in the last fifty years or so.

Best Yankee, Maury, is not equal to Best Player. Really.

On the other hand, Preserved, I think that "in the discussion" implies more than one. Otherwise it wouldn't be a discussion at all. John McCain was "in the discussion" for the Presidency last year.

Jeter is the game’s No. 1 player, now and forever.

He's not even the best SS (Wagner, Ripken....)! He's not even the best SS on his own damn team!

On the other hand, Preserved, I think that "in the discussion" implies more than one. Otherwise it wouldn't be a discussion at all. John McCain was "in the discussion" for the Presidency last year.

Well, put it this way. Was Miguel Cabrera "in the discussion" for MVP this year?

Count the NuvaRingzzzzs! I’m ready to explode!

I was just having this conversation with a young lass last night.

Well, put it this way. Was Miguel Cabrera "in the discussion" for MVP this year?

yes.

Was the discussion:

"How about Cabrera?"
"Nah."

Jeter is the game’s No. 1 player, now and forever.

He's not even the best SS (Wagner, Ripken....)! He's not even the best SS on his own damn team!

Look, I know that Bucky gave baseball one its most glorious moments, but for the all-time Yankee SS I still have to go with the Jetes.

Yes, PF. I think the discussion for AL MVP included Mauer, Jeter, Teixiera, Cabrera, and maybe someone else I'm not thinking of, but Mauer was clearly the best player in the AL and deserved the award. It's amorphous and subjective, but that's what I got.

Was the discussion:

"How about Cabrera?"
"Nah."

He got a first-place vote.

"Randy" Ryan Jones, a Teal & Black Persona

Jesus Christ. Which one are you?

I think the discussion for AL MVP included Mauer, Jeter, Teixiera, Cabrera, and maybe someone else I'm not thinking of...

Shannon Stewart.

He's not even the best SS (Wagner, Ripken....)! He's not even the best SS on his own damn team!

Look, I know that Bucky gave baseball one its most glorious moments, but for the all-time Yankee SS I still have to go with the Jetes.

While I'm gonna guess you are being sarcastic, I was referring to the fact that, even if he is playing at 3B, Alex Rodriguez is still by far the better shortstop.

Alex Rodriguez is still by far the better shortstop.

I hope you mean career-wise. Because carrying his current weight on a surgically repaired hip, Alex Rodriguez simply is not a shortstop.

He's not even the best SS (Wagner, Ripken....)! He's not even the best SS on his own damn team!

Look, I know that Bucky gave baseball one its most glorious moments, but for the all-time Yankee SS I still have to go with the Jetes.

While I'm gonna guess you are being sarcastic, I was referring to the fact that, even if he is playing at 3B, Alex Rodriguez is still by far the better shortstop.

OK, fair enough, but this kind of goes into the "If I had some bread, I'd make a ham sandwich, if I had some ham" category, since A-Rod's played exactly five games at shortstop for "his own damn team," the Yankees.

OTOH at least I'm glad you weren't referring to Rizzuto. (smile)

"Randy" Ryan Jones, a Teal & Black Persona

Jesus Christ. Which one are you?

Did you catch his breakdown on the Josh Johnson thread? I'm not sure if he knows which one he is anymore.

If Randy and I team up, I'm pretty sure we could convince him that he doesn't exist.

I didn't say he was the #1 SS of all time, Joe. Just that a discussion of that position should probably include Derek.

Shortstop is the one position where the #1 player is so much better than everyone else that there really isn't any need for a discussion. Rodriguez could have changed that, so I guess you have to put Jeter into that discussion for sabotaging the competition.

I'd have to put aside all of my most firmly held beliefs to team up with a Canadian, but if the goal is to destroy the sanity of a stranger on the internet, I am ready to go that far.

Shortstop is the one position where the #1 player is so much better than everyone else that there really isn't any need for a discussion. Rodriguez could have changed that, so I guess you have to put Jeter into that discussion for sabotaging the competition.

Nicely put, although Jeter's slow reaction time would have made him even less suited for third, which would mean that the Yanks would have had to acquire yet another expensive replacement for that position. And if you'd stuck Jeter in left, would that have been a major upgrade on Matsui? Not really.

In hindsight, it would probably have been best to move Jeter to center, but I don't see it as a foregone conclusion that the Yanks couldn't have come up with a better CF than Jeter (or Cabrera / Gardner) in the meantime. It just didn't turn out that way.

Rodriquez admitted he was helped along earlier in his career by steroids. No such suggestion has ever been made about Jeter in an era dominated by steroids users and accusers.

At 10:51AM on 11/30, I, Davoarid from MN, am hereby accusing Derek Jeter of using steroids.

Now Allen must rewrite his column. Ha!

I love the topos "X isn't even the best Y on his own team!" I think we should adopt this as a sort of "that's what she said" in baseball arguments. "Babe Ruth wasn't even the best hitter on his own team!" "Enrique Wilson wasn't even the best utility man on his own team!" "Grady Sizemore doesn't even have the cutest body on his own team!" Etc.

WAR has Ripken as 249 runs better with the glove, going into '09. That number is a tad on the high side IMHO, but I think Ripken will be hard to beat out, peak or career.

Ryan Jones isn't even the tealest or blackest Jones on his own team.

I hate the saying "in the discussion" for exactly this reason ;-) Why we needed a phrase to describe "not as undeserving as some other people, but ultimately undeserving nonetheless", I have no idea. If we're gonna use it at all, let's at least limit it to situations where a person could be voted #1 by someone who has any idea at all what they're doing. I can see saying that Pujols, Hanley, and Utley were in this year's MVP discussion. Pablo Sandoval and Matt Kemp, excellent as they were, were not...

I've absolutely sworn off of Ripken/Jeter comparisons until Derek hangs 'em up and we have a complete picture.

But I'll see you later, John. And you won't like it.

In hindsight, it would probably have been best to move Jeter to center, but I don't see it as a foregone conclusion that the Yanks couldn't have come up with a better CF than Jeter (or Cabrera / Gardner) in the meantime. It just didn't turn out that way.

Jeter just turned in a year where he was the second or third best position player in the AL while playing SS. In hindsight, the right decision was to keep him at SS. The Yanks made the right call in determining where Jeter and A-rod should play for the foreseeable future.

I think he's by far the best Yankee in the last fifty years or so.

Mickey Mantle didn't retire until 41 years ago.

Why don't we just give Derek Jeter the Greatest Thing Ever Award and be done with it.

I hate the saying "in the discussion" for exactly this reason ;-) Why we needed a phrase to describe "not as undeserving as some other people, but ultimately undeserving nonetheless", I have no idea.

To save eight words?

I believe the Yanks were financially tied to Bernie in CF at most times that it would have made sense to put Jeter out there. Towards the end, Bernie's only value to the team was his ability to fake CF. I don't think he had another position on the diamond, and I don't think that even the Yankees were willing to pay what Bernie was making to a bench player.

Fine, but when used in that way, it doesn't even mean what the words normally mean, and as we can see, that ends up costing a lot more words in the long run ;-)

In hindsight, the right decision was to keep him at SS

Well, in hindsight you still have to wonder if improved defense at CF and SS mightn't have helped the team to a couple of championships in the intervening years between AROD's arrival and the 2009 Series. Though one wonders if AROD, as injuries crept up on him, would have been such a huge upgrade at SS. Perhaps stowing AROD at 3B, Jeter in CF, and looking for a pure glove man to play SS would have been the optimal strategy, but that introduces another "what if" (what if they could have acquired Adam Everett or somebody), and I'm not sure the Yankees'd have been very much better than they were in any event.

It comes with a catch he made while falling into the stands against the Red Sox or a never-before-seen play he made against Oakland in the playoffs by shuffling a ball home from the third base line against a non-sliding Jeremy Giambi or an unbelievable grab of a Texas league fly ball.

These make Jeter entertaining to watch and there is some value in that, but the idea of him on some sports Mt. Rushmore with the likes of Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, Secretariat, or Muhammad Ali is laughble.

"Greatest living ballplayer"? Will Jetes insist on that introduction 25-30 years from now?

Only if Morris Engelberg Jr is managing Jeter's business.

On that note, I was recently watching one of the 1969 World Series games on MLB TV when they cut to Tony Kubek in the stands wearing some styling BAMF headphones with a 2 foot antenna sticking up from one of them. It was different seeing Kubek get a few quotes from DiMaggio in the stands without having to introduce him as the GLBP and without Engelberg there in front with his hand out demanding a speaking fee.

These make Jeter entertaining to watch and there is some value in that, but the idea of him on some sports Mt. Rushmore with the likes of Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, Secretariat, or Muhammad Ali is laughble.

The idea that Michael Jordan makes the short list is equally laughable. When did Wilt Chamberlain get expunged from the official NBA record? And why Ali over Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Robinson, Harry Greb, or Benny Leonard?

WAR has Ripken as 249 runs better with the glove, going into '09. That number is a tad on the high side IMHO, but I think Ripken will be hard to beat out, peak or career.

For the second half of his career (after his age 30 season) Ripken had a 96 OPS+. Jeter has actually been slightly better than his career average after his age 30 season, with a 123 OPS+ compared to 121 for his career. Given the relatively low target, Jeter may be better than Ripken for every year that remains on his career, and some (if not all) of those years are going to be at SS, whereas Ripken was moved to 3B at the comparable point of his career. The jury is still out, but Jeter has a pretty good chance to overtake Ripken.

YR, you are second to none in your boxing knowledge, but ain't nobody carving a Sports Rushmore with Harry Greb. That's like Benjamin Harrison making it onto the real one :)

I think he's by far the best Yankee in the last fifty years or so.

Mickey Mantle didn't retire until 41 years ago.

Right. Jeter is great, but he's not Mantle.

The jury is still out, but Jeter has a pretty good chance to overtake Ripken.

Assuming that happens, what it will mean is that Jeter is the guy who stands in second place, roughly 87 miles behind Wagner.

Did you catch his breakdown on the Josh Johnson thread?

What Josh Johnson thread? In order for there to be a Josh Johnson thread the Marlins would have had to have done something silly like refuse to sign him to a very reasonable mid-term deal or talked about trading him. And that would never happen because the Marlins love me.

So I reject your premise.

When did Arky Vaughan lose the second-best spot on the shortstop list? News to me.

When did Arky Vaughan lose the second-best spot on the shortstop list? News to me.

Well, obviously there are some career length issues, but yes, good point ... Arky most definitely needs to at least be "in the discussion" for the second slot.

When did Arky Vaughan lose the second-best spot on the shortstop list?

Depends on what criteria you use but Arky had less than 1500 games at SS. Jeter may well end up with 2500, and could conceivably overtake Vizquel for most games at SS in MLB history.

The idea that Michael Jordan makes the short list is equally laughable. When did Wilt Chamberlain get expunged from the official NBA record?

Chamberlain? Is Jolly Old Saint Nick around? That's like saying Bonds or Aaron are better than Ruth.

If we're gonna bring in Wilt, then Karl Malone is part of the discussion.

Or John Holmes, BLB.

*sigh* We already have an NBA thread!

Nicely put, although Jeter's slow reaction time would have made him even less suited for third

Soriano was traded for Rodriguez and Miguel Cairo played 2B for the Yankees in 2004, so I think if Jeter had been the one to move it would have been to second and the Yankees could have found another third baseman. Which means good but nothing particularly special prospect Cano would have been included in a trade before he made the majors. Considering Rodriguez got too bulked-up for SS pretty quickly after the move, I think what the Yankees did worked better than the alternative would have even though it probably wasn't the best choice at the time.

YR, you are second to none in your boxing knowledge, but ain't nobody carving a Sports Rushmore with Harry Greb. That's like Benjamin Harrison making it onto the real one :)

If Benjamin Harrison beat almost a dozen "Presidential Hall of Famers" he'd deserve it!

Anyone remember the short-lived effort to put Ronald Reagan on Rushmore by sandblasting noted hippie conservationsist and tax-supporter Teddy Roosevelt from his perch?

If we're gonna bring in Wilt, then Karl Malone is part of the discussion.

When did Karl Malone ever lead the league in assists?

Depends on what criteria you use but Arky had less than 1500 games at SS. Jeter may well end up with 2500, and could conceivably overtake Vizquel for most games at SS in MLB history.

I think Vaughan's quality of play trumps any longevity issues that Jeter or even Ripken have, IMO.

Michael Jordan was one of, if not the, greatest defenders to ever live, along with being one of the greatest scorers to live. Chamberlain was a historically great offensive player, the greatest single offensive player ever. But he didn't have the all-around game Jordan had.

I'd maybe even think about giving it to you 1-2. But Jordan's number 1, hands down.

I've absolutely sworn off of Ripken/Jeter comparisons until Derek hangs 'em up and we have a complete picture.

But I'll see you later, John. And you won't like it.

Note that I was just making an observation, and if you mean that WARP isn't anywhere close to the ballpark with their defensive metrics, I might agree with you (as I already noted). Even now we're on much solider ground saying Jeter was the better hitter (than Cal) than we are saying Ripken is a hugely superior fielder (tho some people seem to think WARP's defensive methodology is so superior there's no need to get second or third opinions (<ahem>Win Shares <ahem>)).

Michael Jordan was one of, if not the, greatest defenders to ever live

When he felt like playing defense, which was infrequently. When Scottie Pippen was on the floor, he got the toughest defensive matchup. When Pippen and Rodman were both on the floor, Jordan got he 3rd hardest defensive assignment.

Chamberlain was a historically great offensive player, the greatest single offensive player ever. But he didn't have the all-around game Jordan had.

Bull and loney. The NBA didn't keep records of blocks during Chamberlain's era; if they did, Wilt would be well over 4000 for his career, plus a nice number of steals.

Plus Chamberlain lead the league in ASSISTS as a 7'1 center shooting 60% from the field (24 PPG) in 67-68. Rebounding, obviously, would be a huge advantage for Chamberlain, the greatest rebounder in league history. So if anyone's "all-around game" comes up short, it's David Stern's own pet, Michael Jordan.

If we're gonna bring in Wilt, then Karl Malone is part of the discussion.

Wilt, 30.1 PPG, 18.0 reb/g 4.4 Assists/g, .540 FG%

The Mailman:
25.0 PPG, 10.1 reb/G, 3.6 assist/g, .516 FG%,

The game has changed, but Wilt continually lead the league in scoring and rebounds, the Mailman was merely in the top 5 a lot.

I have no idea how basketball winshares are calculated, but the fact that Malone has more than Jordan????? (and that Malone and Stockton are 3rd and 5th all time respectively, really? A team with 2 of the 5 greatest players of all time could never get over the hump?)

Is the NBA thread some sort of virus that spreads to other threads? Even a Jeter thread isn't immune?

Is there no NBA vaccination a thread can take to avoid the scourge?

This argument doesn't work in baseball, but it does to some extent with basketball:

COUNT THE RINGZ!

Anyone remember the short-lived effort to put Ronald Reagan on Rushmore by sandblasting noted hippie conservationsist and tax-supporter Teddy Roosevelt from his perch?

Another Grover Norquist special! It went about as far as his proposal to replace Alexander Hamilton with Reagan on the $10 bill.

Plus Chamberlain lead the league in ASSISTS as a 7'1 center shooting 60% from the field (24 PPG) in 67-68. Rebounding, obviously, would be a huge advantage for Chamberlain, the greatest rebounder in league history. So if anyone's "all-around game" comes up short, it's David Stern's own pet, Michael Jordan.

Come to the NBA Playoffs thread. Although, if you're going to come with a "Wilt is greater than Jordan" argument, you'd better have better ammo than what you've shown so far.

Is the NBA thread some sort of virus that spreads to other threads? Even a Jeter thread isn't immune?

Hey, YR took my throwaway line about MJ and ran with it.

I think Jeter's "in the conversation" about who the best shortstop is, in that any serious discussion has to involve the top five or so. You can't just throw out Honus Wagner's numbers and be done; you have to also demonstrate that he's better than Shortstaop A, B, C, and D. So Jeter's Shortstop C, but he still gets mentioned, even if it's just in the context of "And here's a current shortstop with great numbers. Let's compare him, whoops! Looks like he's not as good!"

Gene Hackman's in the conversation, if you knowwhatimean.

I have no idea how basketball winshares are calculated, but the fact that Malone has more than Jordan????? (and that Malone and Stockton are 3rd and 5th all time respectively, really? A team with 2 of the 5 greatest players of all time could never get over the hump?)

Pete Rose had more win shares than Lou Gehrig, Joe Morgan, and Frank Robinson. Simply listing career totals is not necessarily the best way to find the best players ever.

Top seasons by win shares...
Jordan: 21.2, 20.4, 20.3, 19.8, 19.0
Malone: 16.7, 16.4, 15.9, 15.5, 15.4

Jordan led the league 9 times, each one with a higher score than Malone's best. Malone led the league twice.

It's relatively difficult to argue that win shares think Malone was a better player.

Is the NBA thread some sort of virus that spreads to other threads? Even a Jeter thread isn't immune?

Hey, YR took my throwaway line about MJ and ran with it.

In other words, you're just a carrier, not actively infected?

Typhoid GGC, zonk.

WAR has Ripken as 249 runs better with the glove, going into '09. That number is a tad on the high side IMHO,

I would say that it almost certainly understates Ripken's advantage by a huge margin. I'm amazed by how a few decent UZR ratings has rehabilitated Jeter's defensive reputation. Ripken made 3.1 assists per nine innings, compared to Jeter's 2.6 -- a difference of half a play a game. How big is that? It means Jeter has made more than 1,000 fewer plays than Ripken over Jeter's 18,440 innings at short. That's a difference of about 700 runs! Ripken also recorded one more putout per 10 games, and one more DP every 7 games. So looking just at the raw stats, we're talking about a Ripken advantage of 900+ runs. That's just an astonishing number.

Now I'm sure Mike Emeigh and others will weigh in to say we have to consider opportunities. And of course that's true. But how much of this difference do you think opportunities can explain? Half seems quite generous to Jeter. And that would mean Ripken's real defensive edge is probably twice what Rally estimates. (And as for Ripken's move to 3B, even now he has about 200 more games at SS than Jeter.)

The problem with including Jeter in "greatest SS" discussions, is that the implicit assumption of such discussions is that the player was a good to great fielding SS -- why else would he have played there for many seasons? But this assumption just doesn't apply to Jeter. And once you account for his defense, I don't think there's any way he ends up 2nd on the list.

I say we replace Jordan with Gretzky in GGC's original list. His career was far more revolutionary in a Ruthian sense than Jordan's. In fact, Gretzky violated the hockey record book in ways that are even more impressive than the Babe, given that professional hockey was a more "mature" sport when he arrived on the scene in the early '80s than was the case in the late teens with the Bambino and baseball.

Another Grover Norquist special! It went about as far as his proposal to replace Alexander Hamilton with Reagan on the $10 bill.

I thought it was replacing FDR on the dime? But who can keep track of the lunacy surrounding the Reagan cultists?

Top seasons by win shares...
Jordan: 21.2, 20.4, 20.3, 19.8, 19.0
Malone: 16.7, 16.4, 15.9, 15.5, 15.4

Wilt - 24.98, 23.11, 21.87, 21.42, 20.94

Hey, YR took my throwaway line about MJ and ran with it.

Is it too late to veer off into Harry Greb? The only man to ever beat Gene Tunney you know, and gave the great Jack Dempsey all he could handle as a sparring partner.

Greb & Dempsey (with pics)

Is there no NBA vaccination a thread can take to avoid the scourge?

The NBA thread is indisputably one of BTF's finest hours. But I did create it in part to try to preclude hijacks at playoff time (or at other times).

I have also noticed people bagging on Michael Jordan a lot the last 3-4 weeks. This is YR's second go-round and others have done it as well.

And why Ali over Joe Louis, Sugar Ray Robinson, Harry Greb, or Benny Leonard?

Ali obviously has had a much more important social impact than any boxer in history but I think a key point to remember is that we didn't get to see Ali in his physical prime. Just when he was about to enter his peak physically, he had his license revoked. That Ali would have been just amazing to watch, even moreso than the versions of Ali we did get to see.

The NBA thread is too long for me to go through but has there been any discussion of Kareem or Magic as the great player of all-time?

Ali's obviously has had a much more important social impact than any boxer in history but I think a key point to remember is that we didn't get to see Ali in his physical prime.

So we're allowing him a bonus for fights he never had? Seems unfair to me. I know that his suspension was outside of his control and I'm very upfront in saying that he was clearly railroaded by the government, but Joe Louis lost 2+ years during WW2 and didn't resume a fulltime schedule until his comeback attempt. Benny Leonard retired at 28, record of 72-4, and came back at 35 after he lost all of his money in the stock market crash.

If we're going to give Ali extra credit for the fights he didn't have, should we dock him for the gift decision over Ken Norton in their second fight? If Norton goes 2-1 against Ali, would that take "The Greatest" down a peg in historical significance?

Is it too late to veer off into Harry Greb? The only man to ever beat Gene Tunney you know, and gave the great Jack Dempsey all he could handle as a sparring partner."

There's no surviving footage of any Greb fights, right? I think that explains his relative obscurity today. I can't really judge a fighter on reputation alone. He gave Tunney all he could handle, multiple times. But I wonder about his losses to Tiger Flowers, who I've never heard ranked particularly highly. Was Greb already on his way down? (He had fought almost 300 times by then.) Was Flowers just a bad matchup for his style?

Is there no NBA vaccination a thread can take to avoid the scourge?

The NBA thread is indisputably one of BTF's finest hours. But I did create it in part to try to preclude hijacks at playoff time (or at other times).

So you're saying that what we need is either Charlton Heston or Will Smith to provide us the cure for the "cure"?

In fact, Gretzky violated the hockey record book in ways that are even more impressive than the Babe, given that professional hockey was a more "mature" sport when he arrived on the scene in the early '80s than was the case in the late teens with the Bambino and baseball.

Not to talk #### about The Great One, but 80s hockey really wasn't that mature (or, more accurately, was going through a bit of a regression). The sport had just undergone a massive set of expansions, including doubling the league size in the late 60s, followed by the absorbtion of an entire other league, while not notably expanding the range of talent from which the league was drawn - Europeans were still fairly rare at the time, and Russians (and players from other Eastern European nations) were almost non-existant in the NHL.

While Gretzky was still a talent that would have offensively dominated any league, at any time, he happened to come into the NHL at a time where the gap between stars and scrubs was about as big as it had ever been. He's still the greatest hockey player ever, especially in career value, but his era did a lot to amplify the visibility of the difference.

The NBA thread is too long for me to go through but has there been any discussion of Kareem or Magic as the great player of all-time?

Beat me to the punch on Magic. The difference between him and Jordan isn't even close to as great as common understanding would have it. Magic won everywhere he went, including Michigan State which was a nothingburger backwater in basketball before he got there. Freshmen didn't turn programs around by themselves at the time Magic did (*) (because most of the best upperclassmen were still playing). It took Jordan until his 7th year in the League to win his first ring. That's one big matzoh ball hanging out there. The year Jordan sat out, the Bulls were an awful call from going to the Finals. Jordan, as great as he was, didn't impact teams enough to be the greatest ever hands down.

Jordan never, ever had a game as good as Magic's Game 6 NBA Finals, 1980.(**) Nor was Jordan the revolutionary Magic was. The idea that a 6-9 guy could play point guard, much less be the best point guard on the planet, was unthinkable -- until Magic. Jordan's high-wire act was nothing new; Baylor and especially Dr. J had tread that territory before. Jordan's skills were more replaceable.

(*) 25-5, Big Ten Champs, lost to eventual n.c. Kentucky in Elite 8 as freshman; national champions as sophomore.

(**) It's quite possible that performance was the best single-game effort by a team sport athlete in team sports history. Kareem goes down, Magic moves from point guard to center, and goes 42-15-7, with 3 steals on the road against a great team to win the championship. As a 21-year-old rookie. Ridiculous.

If we're going to give Ali extra credit for the fights he didn't have, should we dock him for the gift decision over Ken Norton in their second fight? If Norton goes 2-1 against Ali, would that take "The Greatest" down a peg in historical significance?

Was it really a gift? Norton won his rounds more convincingly but I think Ali won more rounds. That said, Norton's style was awkward for Ali and there's definitely an argument that Norton could have won that fight. Everybody has chinks in their armor though. Conn gave Louis all he could handle and probably would have won that fight despite being a the smaller man if he hadn't gone for the KO.

The gap between Ali's fame and other fighters is definitely bigger than any perceived gap between them in talent. He has an argument for greatest fighter ever but so do others but no one is bigger outside the ring.

Is there no NBA vaccination a thread can take to avoid the scourge?

I'm real happy for you, and imma let you finish, but Wilt Chamberlain was one of the greatest STD spreaders of all time! OF ALL TIME!

While Gretzky was still a talent that would have offensively dominated any league, at any time, he happened to come into the NHL at a time where the gap between stars and scrubs was about as big as it had ever been. He's still the greatest hockey player ever, especially in career value, but his era did a lot to amplify the visibility of the difference.

Almost all of this is true for Bobby Orr, also.
This is why Mario, IMO, had the highest peak.

There's no surviving footage of any Greb fights, right?

That is correct. His 1925 fight against Mickey Walker was the last filmed fight of his to have been exhibited in public, some time in the 1950s IIRC.

I can't really judge a fighter on reputation alone.

I tend to agree, but in Greb's case we do have extensive footage of the all-time great fighters he DID defeat soundly, including Gene Tunney, Mickey Walker, Tommy Gibbons, and Tommy Loughran (one of my faves of that era, BTW, an absolutely magnificent scientific boxer). Greb also fought, and defeated, the top black contenders of the era as well, so nobody can dither on that point.

But I wonder about his losses to Tiger Flowers, who I've never heard ranked particularly highly. Was Greb already on his way down? (He had fought almost 300 times by then.) Was Flowers just a bad matchup for his style?

Well Greb had plenty of mileage on him by that point, that much is obvious, but it's worth mentioning that Greb arguably won both fights - read the newspaper accounts at the time and many felt Greb took the measure both times.

Not to take anything away from Flowers though, who was a great fighters in his own right. Nobody counts him in Greb's class today but that's because Greb was so freakishly amazing, but Flowers held his own against some very strong fighters of the era, including Mike McTigue, Mickey Walker, and Slapsie Maxie Rosenblum. If Greb were Roger Clemens, Flowers would be closer to Tom Glavine.

Beat me to the punch on Magic. The difference between him and Jordan isn't even close to as great as common understanding would have it.

Johnson was a selfless player who actively tried to get all of his teamates involved in the flow of the offense, and by doing so made them all better. Rest assured if you removed Magic Johnson from the Lakers for a season and replaced him with Pete Meyers, the difference would be more than a mere two wins.

Orr gets points for being the most-often referenced hockey player in crossword puzzles.