I don't think this guy likes baseball very much. He doesn't care about winning, losing, or even playing good games. He just cares that Boston fans don't taunt Toronto players and that Scott Rolen has more ####### hilarious-ness than Troy Glaus.

I don't know any fans, even casual ones, who would rather watch a ######## team lose than a good team win.

"I’m going to trade my integrity to bring people here that don’t stand for what we stand for."

J.P. Ricciardi: Bravely standing for .500 ball since 2002.

The Saints, and Cubs, at least, seemed to have some fans who were happier when the team was legendarily pathetic to the point where it got media attention. And then there's always the "diehards" who get annoyed when the bandwagon pushes ticket prices up.

I would have liked to see Ricciardi give these statements in the same vein as when he denied rumors that they were going to trade for Jack Wilson.
"We've already got Jack Wilson. His name is John McDonald."

"We've already got Barry Bonds. His name is Shannon Stewart."

For once, I agree with Ricciardi. Let the steroid/perjury fans assemble their own team and cheer for Barry Bonds. They can get Roger to be their ace.

For once, I agree with Ricciardi. Let the steroid/perjury fans assemble their own team and cheer for Barry Bonds. They can get Roger to be their ace.

Only if Roger's not busy nailing the team secretary.

there’s not one thing to like about Barry Bonds other than his OPS

OPS+?

Jeffrey Lee Pierce tribute CD

She's like HGH to me/She's like HGH to me/She's like HGH to me ...

Wow. Suggest that maybe it's not totally stupid (do you know what the word "ambivalent" means?) to stick with a team you like instead of airlifting in a noxious mercenary and all of a sudden you "don't like baseball very much". That's a joke, right? Of course I'd rather watch a good team win. I'd just rather not have to watch a man I strongly dislike bring them there. Don't agree with me? Fine. But where do you get off saying that makes me any less of a fan?

Mercenary's a loaded word. Why is bonds a mercenary? Because he's a free agent? I guess the team shouldn't sign any free agents ever then. And you obviously aren't in favor of always sticking with the team they have; you love the Rolen addition. Rolen is, coincidentally, a player who has feuded his way off of two teams, and one who might actually appear 'noxious' from a distance.

The Jays can do two things to change their cirucmstance:

Sign Bonds, or

Fire JP.

I root for both, and then we'll have a good ol' fashion tar and feather.

Glaus after 28 games 0.9 Lwts Batting Runs

Rolen after 5 games 2.3 Lwts Batting Runs

Rolen so far seems like the best of both worlds, ####### hilarious AND good at the whole baseball thing
My fingers are crossed that he stays healthy, he's been the only fun thing about this team (aside from pitchers) the past 2 weeks. He even flashed the gold leather last night too.

EDIT: I have to agree, I've heard a hell of a lot more and seen a lot more evidence that Rolen is a clubhouse issue, than I have seen anything on Bonds.

I sympathize with the author. I like winning, but I like winning with "my guys" more. If that's what gives me or someone else the most enjoyment, why can't we root for that?

Of course it's a loaded word. And since I'm steaming, I'm sure you can pick out a few others in that paragraph that you find over the top instead of responding to my real point: if I'm not 100% glued to the bottom line of lineup production above all else, how does that make me any less of a fan?

Yeah, never sign any free agents. Never, ever, change the team. Only acquire hilarious guys. That was obviously what I was trying to get at. I'm well aware of Rolen's past, and so far compared to the aloof and distant Glaus, he's been a breath of fresh air. I guess that means I don't like baseball very much?

I suppose it doesn't matter because the Jays are a third place team and will be until global warming turns New York and Boston into marshes, but you know, it really didn't make 2004 less enjoyable because Nomar wasn't there.

Personally, I root for laundry. You can take your team of 25 guys you'd like to be friends with and I'll bring up my 25 ######## and beat you.

Mercenary's a loaded word. Why is bonds a mercenary?

Interestingly, Bonds is actually one of those guys who goes way outside even the baseball definition of mercenary. He's a guy who played for only 2 teams in a 22 year career. In this era of free agents flitting about, that's some serious "loyalty".

I think it's interesting that as this season goes by, Barry Bonds is starting to gain "underdog" status in some circles. And some people besides Barry Bonds himself are finally starting to see him as a victim. The only real difference is, none of them will argue that he didn't bring it upon himself.

We do know that J.P. doesn't have anything left except poor logic and poor decisions. Don't even have to see him to know that.

The assumption is that Bonds is the missing ingredient and Ricciardi is disagreeing with this.

Why do people think there is any chance the Jays sign Bonds? They could have kept Thomas around, but instead paid him to leave. They certainly aren't signing Bonds.

JP made a more general point in his comments, that is many fans will be happy to have anyone on the team as long as they will help them win, which appears to be true. I am always surprised at the welcome suspended players get from the home teams fans on their return. JP has always said (believe him or not) that he tries to bring in "character" guys. He said Bonds was the opposite of the guys he tries to bring in.

I for one, do not want Bonds on my team, even if he will help it win. And I won't be cheering any returning drug-suspended players even if they are on my team. Many of us have noted that there is no long term penalty for drug use, the players come back after suspension, some of them in better shape, and can continue earning big bucks. JP has said no and I can't fault him for that.

I'm sure I'm in the slim minority that wishes teams could neither trade nor sign FA during the season. Assemble your team in the off season and then lets see who did it the best. Ah, well.

The premise is not really one you can disagree with--if you don't want Bonds on your team because you don't like him, fine, at least that's honest.

But the problem from Ricciardi's standpoint is that he claims to be making a moral stand when he has a history of flat-out lying to the media (saying he decided he didn't want to deal Rios for Lincecum being a good example). You could argue that's reasonable I suppose, but I don't see how it's any better than signing a cheater/mean guy who's good at hitting baseballs.

Well, what they need is offense. They have the 5th best OBP of the AL, and are dead last in Slg. (They have low BA, and while they walk a lot, they whiff a lot. They don't put balls in play.)

Their pitching is fine, to compete, they need hitting. They just released one of their best sources of SLG and refuse to sign the other. They seem to insist on small ball, and are looking for some way to spark the offense. They're 12th in runs, and 4th in RA. They're basically a .500 club, trying to run small ball tactics on a patient, hacktastic team.

They're more likely to try bringing in Lofton, which isn't helping anything.

Its pretty apparent that this scribe needs to turn off ESPN. He rolled out just about every "sheep" argument you could make about Bonds ... Actually he forgot to mention Kimberly Bell. That would be good for a follow up on your "Sheep Piece"

It does crack me up how he has embraced Scott Rolen though as "One of their own" ... funny funny chit. What a hypocrite.

Come to think of it, this scribe is either full or chit, or racist. I'd like to go with full of chit, but i think the verdict is still out.

Mercenary's a loaded word. Why is bonds a mercenary?

I think halejon inadvertently misharacterized Bonds a bit there, JJ1986.

I think he meant to write that Bonds is a lying, cheating sack of ####.

Anybody can make an honest mistake.

Personally, I think Bonds will bring OBP and little else. And while that helps, this team isn't going anywhere unless the current "stars" perform like such. The Wells bobble still kills me

I'd be ok with BB on the team, I've only seen him in person for one game and that was great. But yeah, I agree with the premise of the article, I'd much rather have guys I like and win. Here's hoping that Manny Lee and Tony Fernandez come back.

Ah, I'm a racist now. Classic. You guys are simply unbelievable.

I've never "embraced" Scott Rolen as "one of our own", I simply mentioned his sense of humour as an example of something it is possible to enjoy about a player other than his value to the team's bottom line. I didn't say that makes him a great person. In fact, I think it's a bit of a schtick.

I could understand this kind of reaction if I was one of the moralizing media windbags going on and on about how he's history's greatest monster for being the only player ever to juice, but I tried to go out of my way not to do that. I just personally really don't like the guy (feel free to disagree) from everything I've watched and read about him. And I find it odd that nobody even acknowledges a certain conflict in cheering for someone they've come to that conclusion about.

Now I know why. Because you get called a racist, baseball-hating, hypocritical sheep. Baaaaaaaaaa.

(They have low BA, and while they walk a lot, they whiff a lot. They don't put balls in play.)

The Jays are currently 28/30 in the league in K's.

It's highly unlikely they would bring in Lofton with Adam Lind the future and Shannon Stewart hanging around. April has been a bit of a blip, but traditionally the Jays have been a station to station team team on par with Oakland.

Personally I think Glaus got a raw deal in Toronto. He wasn't a star or anything, but he was solid with the bat for the Jays and surprisingly decent in the field. I guess I understand the frustration, couldn't stay in the lineup and the HgH business. I give credit for Glaus for the way he handled leaving, privately asked for a trade, let JP get something real in return.

That being said, I love Rolen so far.

Maybe I'm just too easy on former Jays. Obviously, I root for Reed and the Cat still (who doesn't?) But I am also rooting for Lilly and Frank Thomas as well. I guess it takes a lot for me to turn on a player (paging Mr Loaiza...)

I never understand negativity...it's only April but I'm already getting extremely frustrated by the inevitable Vernon Wells hate among all Jays fans.

Maybe I'm too much of a Canadian, but I feel like...if you show up for my team and try your best, I'm going to root for you (even if someone foolishly gave you $100 million plus)

Now JP on the other hand...

the jury is still out.

Your whole entire argument for not wanting a better team, a real shot at beating the Yankees in a season when they are clearly beatable, is, "i could never root for the guy because i was one of those idiot's that tossed needles, or at least wanted to." Really, i am not buying it.

I am telling you that the hatred the media churned up in ya would last all of a week, and lo and behold that beautiful swing of Barry's would become contagious. His first homerun and you would be on your toes, and there is nothing you can do about it man. Its fricking instinctive. By August 1st, you will all be chanting BaRrY, BaRrY!!! Even better, The Bluejays will be in a playoff hunt. You do remember the playoffs right?

Look, Barry gets on base 1/2 the damn time. HALF! Put that in your calculator. Stick him in the three hole. He is worth at least 5 wins over anything Toronto is trotting out there now. Stairs, Lind? please.

But no. instead we get the hypocrisy. And it is, right?

Hypocrisy, Media Sheep or Racism. Of course you claim its not the race. fair enough.

But its the only three things that i can think of, that would cause a fan to be ok with his team being a loser, when improvement is only a phone call away. The Yankees are beatable, and you are talking "I could never cheer for a guy i used to boo".
bull$hit.

I'd love for Kevin Towers to call Barry Bonds. I bet he could track down balls in center better than that washed up a hole Jim Edmonds. [curses st louie]

Even better, when Towers does call. I hope Barry tells him where to stick it, tapes it, and sends it to deadspin so the 250 or so MSM members can freak out the entire country again.

they created this whole controversy. You see anybody flipout when Rodney Harrison pisses positive. no. You see idiots throw needles at him, No!

Its the media reeling out the hate and hypocrites like this swallowing it whole.

I'd love for Kevin Towers to call Barry Bonds.

I'd love for Kevin Towers to call Bonds as well.

I'd love for him to call him what he is: a lying, cheating sack of ####.

Well, I am telling you that there is in fact a minority who absolutely would and could not chant BaRry BaRrY. I guess 90% of the crowd would feel "contagious", I would feel creepy. In fact I've made the point repeatedly that is a particular nightmare of mine- bottom of the ninth, bases loaded, and I'm supposed to rise to my feet and holler on a man that I have disliked for years. Now THAT would be hypocritical.

It may sound bizarre in this day and age, but that this sentiment exists somewhere, and I think much more off the internet than on. My dad stopped watching the Jays in 1992 because he loved the old team and hated Jack Morris. They proceeded won two consecutive world series and he never got back into baseball. They were a great team. He didn't like them as much, and said it felt "tainted". I thought he was wayyy overdoing it back then, yes. But that's how it would feel for me if Barry brought playoffs.

I am fully aware of Bonds' numbers. Fully, fully, aware. If you read my post, I say there is absolutely zero chance this would be a bad baseball move.

What don't you buy? There are leagues of rabid fans who think David Eckstein is the greatest player on the team even if he OPS+'s under 100 because he's such a great guy, leader, sparkplug, blahblahblah. This is about 1% as ridiculous as that.

I really don't understand is why you and the guy who lead off these comments are not able to say something funny like "Personally, I root for laundry" and accept that maybe some people don't. Or even opine that maybe Bonds not as bad as a couple of teammates and the media portray him. Nooooo, I'm a total moron for even suggesting the possibility, it must be because he's black, and you call me absurd and offensive names. I didn't say tell you what to want on your team. I didn't say that I wasn't torn on the issue. Learn to disagree with someone without being a jerk, for chrissakes.

I am constantly amazed at the vitriol aimed at Bonds.

Personally, I would love to see him in a Jays uniform (not that I think that it will happen).

The chance to see the best player in my lifetime (and then some) playing for my favourite team? What's not to like?


As for people welcoming back steroid users... why not? We aren't talking about rapists and murderers here. We are talking about people who tried to maximize their abilities... many of them from back when was there was tacit approval from the league.

Catch someone breaking the rules NOW, give them the suspension they deserve.
Accuse someone of using back when it was considered a smart way to deal with nagging injuries etc. Just deal with it and move on.

Some people have blown this way out of proportion.

(I blame it on media manipulation, personally.)

Whoops, see Jays ranked 14th in AL in SO, and I thought that was a bad thing. So they walk a lot and don't strikeout. They shouldn't be that bad in Avg... Their Iso is still bad... BABIP is a bit low. If we make BABIP average, they're .262/.349/.374 (AL Avg .259/.333/.397). By RC, that makes them almost average. (Adds a good .3 R/G)

Yeah, I sincerely believe this is an average (or maybe hair below average) offensive team.

Not a strong showing in April at all, but they'll get better.

I'm with halejon on some points and against him on others, but he seems to be a reasonable guy to me. Personally I would cheer for Bonds on the Jays. He wouldn't be my favourite player, but if I woke up tomorrow and saw "Jays sign Bonds" as a headline, I'd be excited.

But then of course, I totally understand how that might dampen some fan's enthusiasm. Baseball doesn't necessarily have to be all about winning (for the fan, I mean...it damn well better be all about winning for the players)

It's entertainment, some people find entertainment solely in winning, others like to have a certain emotional attachment to a team based on who's on it. Most are in the middle somewhere.

I'm not the same kind of fan as halejon, but he seems like a knowledgable, passionate fan, and I'd gladly take a trip down to SkyDome with him any day of the week. I think it's too bad when people's blogs or work are linked here and they are mercilessly attacked for just having a different point of view. BTF is a kick-ass place, and it's a shame that it's not more welcoming to certain people.

Thanks, Greg. I've got a couple of season's passes, so any time you want to catch a game in the cheap seats you know where to find me. The funny thing is I'm not really "that kind of fan"...I write a 99.9% highly nerdy blog and have never, ever expressed any sort of emotional attachment to players ever before. Heck, "I’d sign zombie Hitler if he’d put up a .480 OBP” is my favorite post of all time. I've always considered BTF as the logical/statistical haven I would retire to when I get tired of correcting run of the mill lame uninformed message board posts, and to be dragged over the coals for briefly acknowledging an alternate point of view and admitting to maybe not (in a moment of weakness) being totally to the extreme of the stat/emotional spectrum has been a real eye-opener.

Really, you were dragged over the coals by one guy. Personally, I don't care all that much about steroids, but the fact that Barry is a grade A ####### is enough for me. The man has widely been reported to be a miserable human being his entire adult life. Rolen, who has had off-field issues exactly twice--when his first team tried to negotiate with him through the media to pressure him into signing, and when he felt that his manager disrespected him by not telling him he was benched before the media asked him about it--is not anywhere in the same category, and is in fact a very easy guy to root for.

My desire to see the Cardinals win has two limits. I wouldn't want my team to sign Bonds, and I wouldn't want them to explode the payroll and make a mockery of competitive balance in a Yankeesque attempt to buy titles.

JP is a fake hard ass.

I just have to stand up for a buddy here (although he's more than capable of defending himself). I can safely state that halejon's comments are not racially motivated--not remotely. Despite disagreeing on matters more often than not (including Barry and the Jays)--he's a good guy, writer (his blog kicks ass) and analyst (he's a whiz with pitch/fx). Of course, he's a rabid Jays fan so I'm biased.

Welcome to BTF Jon--awesome seeing you here. Barry Bonds is a hot button issue of major proportion here so the strong reaction your article is receiving isn't personal--it's just a volatile subject.

It's a good group here so I hope you'll stick around.

Best Regards

John

Sparkles,
You can hate on Barry for steroids all you want, but are you sure he's an #######? The media has invested a lot of time into portraying him that way, mainly b/c he doesn't feed them meaningless quotes the way every other player does. This is one of the things I like about Barry- he calls out worthless sportswriters when they fail to do their jobs- I remember one writer asking him what it felt like to strike out with the game on the line, and Barry got pissed off and answered "How do you think it felt? It felt terrible." You can see that as him being an #######, but I prefer to look at all the charity work he does, all the money the guy has donated, ect, as evidence of what kind of person he is. I'm not going to get into a huge argument about this, I just have no idea why there's so much hatred for Barry. I do think a lot of it is racially charged, but that obviously doesn't explain the whole thing. WRT to steroids, when it has become clear that so many people used them, why is Barry the lightning rod while others are ignored? I know this has gotten a lot of attention in the steroid threads, but I steer clear of them b/c they just repeat the same debate over and over. Sparkles, what has he done that makes you think he's an ####### to non-reporters and non-Jeff Kents?

If you want a class-A #######, from all media accounts at least, look no further than the GM of the Toronto Blue Jays.

Jon, if you read the site regularly, you should know this is a pretty tough crowd. There are too many people reading to get a universally positive reaction to pretty much anything unless you're Joe Posnanski, and that goes the same even for people who've been around this site from the beginning, like Jim and Chris and me.

Jon, just to be clear, I wasn't claiming that your dislike for BB is racially motivated, just that the general furor over him has a racial component...

Jon, just to be clear, I wasn't claiming that your dislike for BB is racially motivated, just that the general furor over him has a racial component...

No it doesn't. That implies that the #### Barry gets from the media isn't deserved. It is.

Clemens has gotten just as much ####, Maybe more ####, since his story broke. I don't see anyone invoking a racial theory for him.

Kevin, I've been around long enough to know to disregard everything you say about Bonds. And I'm saying apart from the steroids- people were so ready to hang him when the story broke b/c the media had created this caricature far in advance of the steroid controversy. And Clemens is an ####### *on* the field, which Barry definitely is not. Your denial of race as a factor in the Bonds thing shows how poor and distorted your take on it is...

If anyone else wants to offer their explanation, I'd be happy to hear it.

Kevin, I've been around long enough to know to disregard everything you say about Bonds.

Now there's an open mind for you.

And Clemens is an ####### *on* the field, which Barry definitely is not.

Bill Virdon declines to agree.

Your denial of race as a factor in the Bonds thing shows how poor and distorted your take on it is...

Well, I guess that settles that. dp says race is an issue so it's an issue.

Kevin, I'm looking for a more objective analysis of the situation, and you've proven yourself incapable of providing that. That's the end of the conversation. You hate Bonds and take every opportunity to let everyone on BTF know it (see #24 and #30 just in this short thread). So, yeah, I really don't give a rat's ass what you have to say about the situation b/c you contribute nothing to my understanding of it. Not a big deal.

I disagree with Jon's assertion in the article that there's "nothing to like" about him. I like that he knows the strike zone better than any hitter I've ever watched. I like that he doesn't carry himself with arrogance on the field. I like that he's one of the few hitters in the game who literally changes the face of the entire game when he plays. When he's on the bench, the team can PH with him late in the game and have a 50% chance of getting a runner on. No one else gives you that kind of strategic leverage.

The hatred directed toward him is similar to that New Yorkers direct toward Arod- they aren't capable of deriving pleasure from watching him play. They can't put aside everything off the field and appreciate that they're seeing a once in a generation talent. I went to see the Giants every time they came to NYC just to watch Barry. Worth the price of admission IMO.

Kevin, I'm looking for a more objective analysis of the situation, and you've proven yourself incapable of providing that.

If you ignore, and fail to consider, anything I have to say on the matter, who's the one who's failing to be objective?

That's the end of the conversation.

Thank god.

You hate Bonds and take every opportunity to let everyone on BTF know it (see #24 and #30 just in this short thread). So, yeah, I really don't give a rat's ass what you have to say about the situation b/c you contribute nothing to my understanding of it. Not a big deal.

Have you stopped to consider for a moment exactly why I hate Bonds? Of course not. Your mind is closed on the matter. So stop cluttering up the site with your ill-informed and close-minded opinions. Unless you actually have something to add on the matter (which you obviously don't), why do you even bother?

I like that he doesn't carry himself with arrogance on the field.

RDF. Now there's an objective observation. That has to be the most ignorant perception I've seen posted here in quite some time. And that's really, really saying something, since Nieporent posts just about everyday.

The hatred directed toward him is similar to that New Yorkers direct toward Arod- they aren't capable of deriving pleasure from watching him play.

I don't derive any pleasure from watching replays of Ben Johnson and Rosie Ruiz crossing the finish line either? Is there something wrong with that?

Worth the price of admission IMO.

Heavy emphasis on the "IMO" part. Which makes the rest of the post basically irrelevant, since nothing new has been added to the debate. Just another "I'm a mindless fanboy" post.

Kevin, I like a lot of what you post on this site, but god dammit you've said it all 8 million times before. Are you really going to add anything in your next 200 posts about Bonds that you haven't said in the first 1000? Your position on the subject is very clear. I don't need to hear it again to understand it. But you never let that stop you...

That has to be the most ignorant perception I've seen posted here in quite some time. And that's really, really saying something, since Nieporent posts just about everyday.

Within the lines, I don't think he comes off as arrogant. Confident at the plate, definitely, but not arrogant. That's most def. a subjective perception, but not IMO unjustified. Clemens does ####### things on the field that mirror his off-field personality, but I've never seen that in Bonds, and I watched him a lot both as a Pirate and a Giant. Off the field is a different matter entirely, and when he talks to the media, he comes off as arrogant. But he is the best hitter of his generation, so you can see where it comes from.

halejon -

If you're still hanging around in this thread, you're seeing one of the other hallmarks of BTF: watching the vehemently anti-PED/anti-Bonds Kevin mix it up with the pro-Bonds contingent. This has literally been going on, unchanged, unabated, for three straight years. It's kinda comforting in its predictability. Never change, guys!

P.S. Gambling Rent - who accused you of possible racism - is actually a pretty cool guy most of the time, but like kevin on the other side, has a tendency to get way too worked up about Bonds. Ignore him for now and realize that the rest of us are glad to have you around. Personally, I think this article was worth it for the wonderfully violent title alone.

Kevin, I like a lot of what you post on this site, but god dammit you've said it all 8 million times before.

And I'll continue to say it as long as I encounter the apathy which you are currently displaying.

Clemens does ####### things on the field that mirror his off-field personality, but I've never seen that in Bonds, and I watched him a lot both as a Pirate and a Giant.

If Bonds were a pitcher, I'm pretty sure he would come off as just a big of a horse's ass a Clemens. Well, maybe not. Clemens is the biggest horse's ass of all-time. But Bonds is certainly in the top 10.

P.S. Gambling Rent - who accused you of possible racism - is actually a pretty cool guy most of the time. quote]

I disagree with this.

Me too.