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Monday, October 31, 2005

Theo Walks Away from the Red Sox

Epstein had done some agonizing soul-searching the past few days, torn between staying at the job he had always coveted since his childhood days in Brookline and leaving because of intra-organizational politics and power struggles that he ultimately decided he could not live with any longer.

Now do you guys believe me about the factions?

Thanks to the quick link by Keith Willoughby.

Dan Szymborski Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:47 PM | 350 comment(s)
  Related News: Boston

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   1. Schilling's Sprained Ankiel  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:51 PM (#1713505)
Well that's a turn around from the earlier reports. This is going to be an interesting off season to say the least.
DB
   2. HOPE: Madison Obamagarner (Flynn)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:52 PM (#1713511)
This is a bad day.

This is a very bad day.

If you are a Red Sox fan, it's time to panic.
   3. Robert in Manhattan Beach (nee Redondo)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:52 PM (#1713513)
Sounds like just a great place to work. Good luck to the next guy.
   4. 1k5v3L, Useless  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:53 PM (#1713517)
amazing. what can i say...

i wonder what will happen to bill james and the other "stat guys" boston hired? voros m. already jumped ship. we should torture him for details :)
   5. karlmagnus  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:54 PM (#1713519)
Shaughnessey has single handedly created a new Curse of Theo Epstein, that will stop us winning until 2090!

I have to say, I agree with the lynch mob; it's just a question of whether to lynch CHB or Lucchino first.
   6. BeQC  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:56 PM (#1713525)
Good stuff from Theo. Stating the obvious, how much of a pr*ck must Lucchino be that, all things, considered, Theo would walk away from this. Three years, $1.5m to stay in a place where you are revered. John Henry must have to be seriously re-evaluating Lucchino's place in the organization.
   7. Moses Taylor's bus bench has been Tom Sellecked  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:56 PM (#1713528)
Wow.

He'll get another job right away, right? Who's still looking-Philly and LA?
   8. rb's team is hopeful for the new year!  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:56 PM (#1713531)
Bill James gonna take over?
   9. The George Sherrill Selection  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:56 PM (#1713533)
John Henry must have to be seriously re-evaluating Lucchino's place in the organization.

Obviously not if he's giving Lucchino this much rope.
   10. myshkin  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:57 PM (#1713534)
Sign DePo?
   11. The Rafael Bournigal fan club  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:57 PM (#1713538)
Come to Chicago, Theo. PLEASE.
   12. 1k5v3L, Useless  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:58 PM (#1713540)
The guy who traded Kazmir for the GM in BOS!
   13. Schilling's Sprained Ankiel  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 05:58 PM (#1713541)
BeQC - I hope John Henry is re-evaluating LL, but I imagine that's not the case. How involved is Henry really? I thought he was pretty hands off.
DB
   14. chris p  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:00 PM (#1713545)
I have to say, I agree with the lynch mob; it's just a question of whether to lynch CHB or Lucchino first.

both! i think i have a pitchfork and some rope somewhere! who's with me?!?!
   15. Hang down your head, Tom Foley  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:00 PM (#1713546)
Come to Chicago, Theo. PLEASE.

The White Sox already have a GM.
   16. Fly is Part of the Landed Gentry  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:01 PM (#1713548)
Larry Lucchino should be fired on the spot.
   17. Robert in Manhattan Beach (nee Redondo)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:02 PM (#1713551)
Sign DePo?

That would be fun. Take DePo and his complete lack of interpersonal skills and media savy and drop him in that market in that front office. Sounds like a fantastic reality show pitch.
   18. chris p  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:02 PM (#1713553)
Larry Lucchino should be firedkilled on the spot.

fixed.
   19. Campeones de la Serie Mundial('zop)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:03 PM (#1713558)
####. I wish the Red Sox had kept Epstein. Rivalries are much more fun when both teams are excellent. I'd rather have a 100 win Yankee team lose in the ALCS to a 100 win Boston team than a 95 win Yankee team win the pennant unchallenged, weird as that sounds.


Oh well.
   20. Schilling's Sprained Ankiel  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:03 PM (#1713559)
Well, that was a short golden age.
   21. BeQC  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:03 PM (#1713560)
Obviously not if he's giving Lucchino this much rope.

I would have to imagine the impending backlash from this (which could very well be tempered by who Boston brings in/promotes as their next GM) could put some pressure on Lucchino. IMO, you would think that Henry would be support Lucchino in negotiations, especially with a likely assurance from LL that Epstein would be back. But by not delivering, LL has placed himself as the executive face of that organization, in terms of what happens on the baseball side. I would just think this has a high probablility of biting LL in the ****, which goes without being said.
   22. Jim Wisinski is waiting till next year  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:04 PM (#1713564)
He'll get another job right away, right? Who's still looking-Philly and LA?

I doubt it. LA won't go for another saber GM, Philly sends like a crappy situation and maybe one not very different than the conflicts with oversight from above he had in Boston, and the Rays aren't looking for a true GM because that's more or less Andrew Friedman's spot.
   23. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:08 PM (#1713569)
Sign Lasorda?
   24. Repoz  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:08 PM (#1713570)
Mike and the Mad Dog are ripping Theo...jeez!!!
   25. HOPE: Madison Obamagarner (Flynn)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:11 PM (#1713572)
WEEI is on major freakout. The hosts are freaking out, the callers are freaking out.

I hate the Big Show, but this is riveting radio.
   26. Rodder  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:12 PM (#1713575)
Obviously, I would love to see him go to Philly. But given the total lack of imagination the club has shown in its modern history, I don't think Theo would like it any better than in Boston. Nor do I think he would be attractive to the Phillies front office. I used to think Wade was a cause of said lack of imagination, I am more and more thinking he was a symptom.
   27. Halofan  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:12 PM (#1713577)
If this means that Manny is closer to being an Angel as a salary-dump style steal, I love it.
   28. Dr Love  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:13 PM (#1713579)
Who's still looking-Philly and LA?

Tampa Bay too.
   29. Maury Brown  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:13 PM (#1713580)
Epstein had done some agonizing soul-searching the past few days, torn between staying at the job he had always coveted since his childhood days in Brookline and leaving because of intra-organizational politics and power struggles that he ultimately decided he could not live with any longer.

Lucchino....
   30. The Clarence Thomas of BTF (scott)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:14 PM (#1713581)
Larry Lucchino is a piece of ####.
   31. Nate  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:15 PM (#1713582)
I have no idea what to say or do. I'm in shock. This is ridiculous.

We win the World Series for the first time in generations, we win 95 games and tie for the division lead the next year, AND WE STILL (FORGET) IT UP.

I feel exactly the same right now as I did about this team before they finally won it. It's really unexplainable. Here they go again, f'in it all up.

Here comes another 85 years......
   32. jimmybob  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:16 PM (#1713583)
What are Mike and the Mad Dog saying?
   33. Johnny Zen  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:17 PM (#1713585)
Is the year off from baseball assertion credible?
   34. Bob T  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:17 PM (#1713587)
Maybe this is all part of a DePodesta-Epstein prisoner exchange.
   35. Eraser-X is emphatically dominating teh site!!!  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:17 PM (#1713588)
Was this what they meant when they entitled the book, "Mind Game"?
   36. Dan Szymborski  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:18 PM (#1713589)
I hate the Big Show, but this is riveting radio.

Weeeeeeeel, it's the big show! It's a big bad show tonight!
   37. myshkin  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:18 PM (#1713591)
Last year he said that he wasn't going to stay in baseball forever and that he wanted to "help" people like his brother Paul. I didn't know if he was serious or not, but I wonder...
   38. The Clarence Thomas of BTF (scott)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:19 PM (#1713594)
can Henry fire Lucchino and rehire Theo?
   39. The Rafael Bournigal fan club  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:20 PM (#1713596)
#36 is RDF, if only because the same thing ran through my head.
   40. Repoz  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:21 PM (#1713597)
What are Mike and the Mad Dog saying?

Epstein has never scouted...knows very little about baseball, unlike Minaya ("WHO SCOUTED SAMMY SOSA FOR CRYIN' OUT LOUD!", Lucchino, Sabean etc...he just got out of college and should stick to his "On base stuff and computer printouts"...he now wants to do social work, "BAH"

on and on...amazing
   41. Eric L  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:22 PM (#1713599)
Not to pull a Levski, but Theo would be a good fit in San Diego under Alderson, and it looks like Towers has one foot out the door.
   42. JH (in DC)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:24 PM (#1713601)
That six-month extension Bowden got doesn't preclude him from being fired, say as soon as there's an owner, which should be, say, ASAP?
   43. Timebomb Murdoch  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:24 PM (#1713602)
I don't see Theo going to the Phillies or the Dodgers - where will he land?
   44. mr. man  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:25 PM (#1713605)
worse yet, it's going to be tough to attract a top gm now because of the politics issues. BOS may have to promote someone from inside now.
   45. villainx  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:25 PM (#1713606)
that will stop us winning until 2090!

i could live with that.
   46. Andere Richtingen  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:29 PM (#1713612)
BUT WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR MONEYBALL???!!!!????
   47. Maury Brown  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:29 PM (#1713613)
That six-month extension Bowden got doesn't preclude him from being fired, say as soon as there's an owner, which should be, say, ASAP?

Not... until... at... least... the... owners'...meetings.

Nov. 16th and 17th.

You don't think he'll have landed somewhere between now and then? The ironic nature of DePosdesta being fired and having Theo land in his place is just too tempting to not think about.
   48. VegasRobb  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:29 PM (#1713614)
Wow. Just shocking. I'll be curious to read what the Boston media have to say about this unfortunate(?) turn of events. Wasn't the media anti-Theo?

Maybe KC can hire Bill James as a consultant now?
   49. JohnC  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:29 PM (#1713615)
My prediction: Towers to the Sox and Theo to the Padres.
   50. Maury Brown  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:30 PM (#1713617)
worse yet, it's going to be tough to attract a top gm now because of the politics issues. BOS may have to promote someone from inside now.

Maybe Josh Byr... Oops.
   51. baseball chick (now, with NEW blog)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:30 PM (#1713619)
hmmmmmmmmmm

wonder what plaschke gonna say if mccourt wants to interview theo

snicker


sorry red sox fans
   52. Rafael Bellylard has become a Mets fan!  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:31 PM (#1713622)
Now if the new ownership in Tampa wants to REALLY show us they're serious...
   53. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:32 PM (#1713623)
I hate the Big Show, but this is riveting radio.


Listen to 890. Felger has guests on who know what they are talking about. No (idiot) caller-driven radio.

I don't see Theo going to the Phillies or the Dodgers - where will he land?


The Herald says he might take a year off.
   54. Dewey, Local Boy and Soupuss  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:32 PM (#1713624)
BUT WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR MONEYBALL???!!!!????

Mind Game: How the Boston Red Sox Got Smart, Won a World Series, and Dissolved Into An Orgy of Infighting and Drove Their GM Away.
   55. Timebomb Murdoch  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:32 PM (#1713625)
Agree with JohnC. Now that I've read the link - blush - it seems pretty obvious that he will land in San Diego. Whether he is the GM this year, or next, well...
   56. karlmagnus  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:32 PM (#1713626)
Assuming Lucchino now has primary control, he and CHB have just cost Henry about $100 million, in the value of the franchise. There was a substantial "brand value" in what henry paid for the Sox, which is seriously damaged by this type of thing, and will be further damaged if Lucchino engages in the kind of revolving door tem construction he seems addicted to.

THAT if nothing else may make Henry stop and think. Or, alternatively, sue the Globe, which being owned by the NYT has a huge and obvious conflict of interest.
   57. Sean McNally  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:34 PM (#1713627)
This is just stunning... where does Boston go from here? I mean, is this just Sox fans overreacting, how much impact does a GM really have?

That said, I feel pretty good right now... Theo and Cashman are supposedly good friends, would Epstein take an AGM job in New York? Could he be that pissed at Boston?

Just. Wow.
   58. SABRJoe  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:35 PM (#1713630)
Theo to Washington with DePo as AGM?
   59. Jefferson  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:37 PM (#1713634)
Holy cow. That money could really smooth over lots of workplace issues for lots of people.

I've been hearing that Brian Sabean was a likely candidate to replace Theo. So maybe Lucchino has cost two teams their GMs?

Wasn't Lucchino also the one who balked at the A-Rod trade?

This is so shocking that it's actually kinda fun.
   60. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:37 PM (#1713635)
Wasn't the media anti-Theo?


Just, or most obviously, the Curly Haired Boyfriend, who likes to play tough guy when ownership won't talk to him (Kraft, prior Celtics owner), but if ownership gives him access and quotes to personally attack players and others, he gives a nice, wet kiss in the newspaper.
   61. Bobby Bonilla's Annuity (Matt)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:38 PM (#1713637)
Heeyyy Phillies.

Please hire him. I want an internship.
   62. Nate  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:39 PM (#1713638)
If we go from Theo to Sabean, I'm going to be very very very mad.
   63. HOPE: Madison Obamagarner (Flynn)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:40 PM (#1713640)
That money could really smooth over lots of workplace issues for lots of people.

That should tell you how bad it is.
   64. Campeones de la Serie Mundial('zop)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:41 PM (#1713642)
I'm kind of surprised that this thread isn't blowing the John F. Mabry thread out of the water...
   65. HOPE: Madison Obamagarner (Flynn)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:43 PM (#1713645)
Listen to 890. Felger has guests on who know what they are talking about. No (idiot) caller-driven radio.

I don't live in Boston, so not an option. :(
   66. Biff uses the power of mental thinking  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:44 PM (#1713648)
WHAT?!?!?!?!
   67. Matt Clement of Alexandria  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:45 PM (#1713653)
This is just stunning... where does Boston go from here? I mean, is this just Sox fans overreacting, how much impact does a GM really have?
The problem isn't exactly replacing Theo. There was a system partially in place, and a lot of good people who could do some large percentage of his job.

The problem is that this means Lucchino has won the power struggle. Whoever takes over will be under Lucchino's thumb. This sucks.
   68. Bob T  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:47 PM (#1713659)
Frank McCourt now looks like he's only the second dumbest owner in baseball.
   69. HOPE: Madison Obamagarner (Flynn)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:47 PM (#1713660)
The problem is that this means Lucchino has won the power struggle. Whoever takes over will be under Lucchino's thumb. This sucks.

Exactly. This isn't talent leaving. This is office politics, and the Bad Guy won.
   70. Johnny Zen  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:47 PM (#1713662)
My prediction with the Phillies is that they will show some interest in Theo, get distracted and lose Hunsicker to Tampa and Gillick to LA, and then when Theo decides to go to San Diego or leave baseball altogether to herd goats in Tibet for a year the Phils will be left to chose between a freshly fired Jim Bowden and Ruben Amaro Jr.

Just some of that trademark Philadelphia optimism.
   71. Biff uses the power of mental thinking  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:48 PM (#1713664)
At least we won the World Series last year.
   72. A Day In the Park  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:48 PM (#1713665)
This isn't good, but let's try an look at the positive side.

If Lucchino was always involved in all the personnel decisions, then maybe losing Theo isn't that bad, after all, we still got Larry Lucchino.

That still remains.

Red Sox fans...Calm down! We'll be fine.
   73. Matt Clement of Alexandria  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:49 PM (#1713666)
Wasn't the media anti-Theo?
No. He won the World Series. The talk radio callers are absolutely killing Lucchino and Henry right now.

What sucks is that I've been arguing that this could happen for a couple months now. And I don't get to enjoy vindication in any way.
   74. Nate  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:50 PM (#1713670)
I will pay for the hosting and domain name:

firelarrylucchino.com

If anyone is willing to maintain and contribute to the site, since I know nothing about that side of things.
   75. bp  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:52 PM (#1713676)
good stuff...I enjoy seeing the chaos in beantown.
   76. PETCO Thread  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:53 PM (#1713678)
I'm kind of surprised that this thread isn't blowing the John F. Mabry thread out of the water...

I don't have anything to worry about.

Do I?

I sense that Primates don't fear my powers anymore. *Sigh*
   77. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:54 PM (#1713681)
Flynn,
The show is about to go off the air, but here is the link to streaming:

ESPN Boston 890

Local programming from 4-7, M-F and Patriots pre- and post-game.
   78. HOPE: Madison Obamagarner (Flynn)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:55 PM (#1713682)
Wasn't the media anti-Theo?

The Globe staffers picked him Bostonian of the Year.

The whole media is in love with him. The fanbase is in love with him.

Even CHB has had moments of being in love with him - which is why CHB is such a smarmy bastard. At least Plaschke always hated DePo.
   79. BeQC  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:55 PM (#1713686)
The problem isn't replacing Theo, it's finding a combination of people that can equal Theo's production. First off, the Sox need to bring in a guitar player that can match Epstein's prowess at Boston's annual "Hot Stove, Cool Music"--look for the Sox to sign Epstein's old friend, Eddie Vedder of Pearl Jam. Second, Lucchino will have to find a young Bostonian with boyish good looks who dreamed of being Boston's GM and is comfortable with the media. For that role, I can see Ben Affleck. There is, of course, the whole baseball issue, but I have a feeling I know who...coughLucchinocough...that may be.
   80. Josh  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:55 PM (#1713687)
Everything I've ever said it wrong, my world is shattered, and I fear that our own affirmative action program in Boston will come to an end.

And, LKAHFLASFHLASHF:ASLKFAS:LFJA.

Mikael: if we made a bet for a quarter, I'd be sending it to you right now.

*sigh*
   81. HOPE: Madison Obamagarner (Flynn)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:56 PM (#1713690)
The show is about to go off the air, but here is the link to streaming:

Damn, I thought it was just ESPN's national coverage.
   82. SABRJoe  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:57 PM (#1713691)
So when do Lester, Youkilis and Hanley get traded for Thome and David Bell?
   83. RP  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:57 PM (#1713692)
For that role, I can see Ben Affleck.

That's a great idea!
   84. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 06:59 PM (#1713698)
Flynn,
890 is continuing local coverage past 7:00 PM.
   85. The George Sherrill Selection  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:03 PM (#1713700)
Larry Lucchino should have his children taken away.
   86. Jefferson  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:03 PM (#1713702)
Who else is going to think of Lucchino now as the $1.5 Million Jerk?
   87. Johnny Zen  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:04 PM (#1713704)
Gammo just said on Sportscenter that Theo will be happy "doing social work and a little guitar tech work and then eventually returning to baseball." Or something to that effect.
   88. Matt Clement of Alexandria  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:04 PM (#1713705)
So when do Lester, Youkilis and Hanley get traded for Thome and David Bell?
Just after Manny gets traded for Finley. Gotta replace that power production!
   89. Maury Brown  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:06 PM (#1713707)
Posted by Frank McCourt

Yeah, Theo? Yeah, this is Frank. Yes... Yes, I know I just fired Paul. Yes... Yes, I know that T.J. Simers will chew me up. But, bubbie, you simply have to fly out here to LA.
   90. susan mullen  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:09 PM (#1713712)
Anyone who takes Theo's job should be well advised that a certain individ-
ual who happens to write a newspaper column will know everything that goes
on in his life. Whatever else happens, no matter how good he is, he can
always be spanked and sent to bed with no dinner. This same individual who
writes a local newspaper column disdainfully said that he and all the other
writers thought that the Red Sox would beat the White Sox. The paper he
writes for is part owner of the Red Sox. So, there are lots of bosses.
   91. HOPE: Madison Obamagarner (Flynn)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:12 PM (#1713716)
890 is continuing local coverage past 7:00 PM.

I'm listening now w/ Verducci. Not bad.
   92. HOPE: Madison Obamagarner (Flynn)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:12 PM (#1713719)
No way Theo goes to LA.

Maybe SF? Pleasseee to go the Giants, Theo.
   93. HOPE: Madison Obamagarner (Flynn)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:13 PM (#1713722)
Oh, it's Buster Olney. Bleh.
   94. BeQC  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:14 PM (#1713723)
Posted by Larry Lucchino:

My #### doesn't work in negotiations.
   95. SABRJoe  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:14 PM (#1713724)
Brynes is gone. At this point I'd be only content with DePo or Towers -- maybe Forst -- as the next Boston GM. I have confidence they'd continue on with the current blueprint.
   96. Handle's Messiah  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:16 PM (#1713725)
Perspective often takes time.
   97. Bobby Bonilla's Annuity (Matt)  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:17 PM (#1713727)
My friend who went to Brookline High School just came into my room, crying, devastated.
   98. Phil Coorey Needs To Know How To Kill A Cat  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:20 PM (#1713728)
This is terrible. Can someone explain where CHB comes into the eqation , please?
   99. The elusive Robert Denby  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:20 PM (#1713730)
It'd be a real shame if something happened to Allard Baird...
   100. Phil Coorey Needs To Know How To Kill A Cat  Posted: October 31, 2005 at 07:20 PM (#1713731)
I am fuming now Byrnes has gone
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