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I hate all the curse crap talk.
So I think there's still some question about what's going on here. The "factions" stories have been around a long time and may be correct...but they've also been overplayed for a long time, too.
No way Theo goes to LA.
Maybe SF? Pleasseee to go the Giants, Theo
Si. If Sabean is the next GM of the Sox, I for one hope Theo takes over. San Francisco- the cost of living will be the same outrageous levels, without random October Snowfalls!
Maybe it's because of circumstances but LL is not a big jerk relative to jerkdom. Sure, to MOST common folks he's a jerk. But not in major organizations.
And at the end of the day the Red Sox are what, a billion dollar company? That's NOTHING in a 12 trillion dollar economy. Heck, the U.S. is flush with billion dollar companies like zits on a teen-agers face.
So really, LL is a SMALL time operator relative to what's out there. The Red Sox are NOT Merrill Lynch or even The Carlyle Group.
It's certainly high-profile. But slime goes where the money is. And at the end of the day the money just ain't here like it is elsewhere.
So while some here might think LL is a big meanie I think he's pretty ordinary.
Which is why I'm surprised that an educated lad like Theo couldn't LAUGH at this schmuck.
Guess it's me......
I think the Twins had at least two thumbs up there.
I think he would love to go to Boston...but no way he goes unless lucchino is gone....we aren't the best judges but Sabean is probably more highly regarded inside baseball circles than theo...and honestly i think he would do well in boston...he would love to be up against cashman fulltime...he is a competitve SOB that finds ways to put a winning team together...
And i can totally see MacGowan of the Giants grabbing one of the moneyball boys to take Sabes place...
he is all about winning in whatever way he can...
WJ (wearing Yankee hat): Hi, Mr. Epstein.
Theo: How ya doin.
[WJ immediately calls all his friends giggling like a school girl who just saw Justin Timberlake]
Nice , real friggin nice...
And i wish us sox fans had gnashed our teeths as much over Mr. Martinez' departure....
you are one of the minority of primates who is older than me so I look forward to your posts for their insight and perspective but...I am going to side with the young guys (and bb chick) on this one.
One of the reasons corporate culture has become such a cesspool is that it seems like everyone within it is held captive, for either love, ego, oan or money, and that compulsion is leveredged constantly. One of the few lessons I have learned from life is that nothing freaks these people out more than being able to say "forget this, I don't need any of it."
But than again, I am a fading hippie from the 60's. If I was Theo, the only upside would be being able to retire at 40, but it still would not be worth it.
You are very right about one thing, he will find these issues (In varying degrees of measure.) in any high-level position. IMHO, it only gets scummier as you near the top.
Harvey,
Theo spending 1 day doing social work will have more of an impact on making the world a better place than as GM for the Red Sox. It's laughable that you consider an MLB front office to be "IN the sandbox."
To go on a tangent, I think that's true of every championship team. When people here say that Team X got lucky, it's not an insult. Every year, there are a handful of teams good enough to win the title, but only one of them gets hot enough and catches enough breaks to be the one left standing -- whether or not they were the best team by any other definition.
Stop buying the papers that do this and let them know the reason why.
Cashman said he told Steinbrenner and Swindal that Gene Michael, a vice president and special adviser who has fallen out of favor with Steinbrenner, should be back in the inner circle, which would give Cashman another ally in the New York office.
....but they have the best sources on the Sox, so how can I stay away? heh-heh
in all seriousness i'm not as bent out of shape over this as everyone else. The Sox' management is still in way better shape now than it has been for the majority of anyone's liftemime (except for infants).
I think a lot of the responses here assume a bunch of stuff that is, how you say, 'facts not in evidence.' We don't really know why Theo left. Everyone hates LL, so the assumption is that Theo did too. Maybe he didn't. Maybe he loved him and that's why he followed him from place to place. Perhaps Theo got fed up with the privacy issues or the 18 hour days or the pressure.
Also, it seems to me that a lot of people here are just assuming that LL 'winning the power struggle' is bad. I don't see that to be a given. The Red Sox made great strides with Theo working under LL's thumb. Who's to say they couldn't continue this with LL in the same role? Who's to say that Theo wasn't wanting more power than he could have handled?
All that said, I have to say that I'm shocked this didn't get done. It's too bad because we know that Theo was doing a good job and his replacement, whoever it is, might not. I'm also shocked that Cashman, after the years of everyone talking about how miserable he was, stayed, and Theo left. I never would have guessed that.
I saved a little good news for the end of my post. Ownership has a lot of egg on its face. It will need to go out and get a great replacement for Theo. That replacement will be able to make some big demands. Maybe the new GM will insist on bringing in his own...NEW MANAGER!!! Davey Johnson/Larry Dierker/Bobby V, come on down!
As a former socail worker, I have to strongly disagree. Lots of (insert basic necessites of life) can be bought with a GM's salary.
And if he handles the situation gracefully, and doesn't burn his bridges, Lucchino could be out of the picture eventually in Boston and he might even find his way back there.
He has all the options in the world.
So really, LL is a SMALL time operator relative to what's out there. The Red Sox are NOT Merrill Lynch or even The Carlyle Group.
And maybe all that ran through Theo's mind. The kind of money he's making in baseball is small potatoes to what he could make in "real" business, if he really is this great wunderkind. Maybe he'd forgo the money for a job he loves -- but if the job is a pain in the arse, then he can walk away.
And as Dial said, he can choose any job in baseball. He's got plenty of options, both in and out of baseball, and has the choice to take a less glamorous position for a better environment, if that's what he chooses.
If Theo has a passion for being in charge of a professional baseball team then he has to be PART of an organization to fulfill his professional ambitions.
I was not suggesting that being the GM of the Red Sox would solve world hunger.
What I find laughable is that folks here think that by changing addresses you can find a place where everyone hugs each day and eats ice cream together on Friday afternoons.
The difference is that reportedly Cashman drew a line in the sand with regards to command and control of his team, and Steinbrenner acquiesced. You're right that there's a lot to this story that has yet to be established fact. But it appears that Lucchino/Henry was unwilling to give Epstein the level of autonomy that he believed that he needed to be successful--and felt he deserved.
But that's what I find shocking on a couple levels. First, that Steinbrenner would acquiese to someone who hasn't met his (very high) standard the last 5 years. Second, that Cashman would believe that Steinbrenner was really willing to change.
Not that I mind--I'm glad the Yankees still have 500 cooks who all think they're the head chef. It's just a shocking development.
Bring in Depo, but make him promise not to hire Terry Collins. No more Terries!
Only about half of the posts I've read have suggested that Theo is specifically looking for hugs and ice cream. The other half seem to think that maybe, because of his abilities, Theo could find something a little more to his liking, whether that be in baseball or something else. Every day, brilliant people choose a career that comes with less prestige or less money because they are happier. Maybe Theo thinks he can be happier somewhere else. Nothing wrong with that.
> didn't know who chb was; shaugnessey's long been on my "don't read / listen to" list. i'm glad that the fans are killing him as much as they are and hope they cancel the globe subscriptions; he doesn't deserve to have his junk published.
> henry's method of making money in the market works best in trending markets. it works as long as there's a bull market *somewhere* - whether it's stocks, commodities, etc.
> the people in the boston globe site postings are loving theo / killing lucchino. same on sons of sam horn.
> i think ricciardi would jump at the boston job, and toronto would take minimal compensation from boston for him.
> i think the sox were lowballing theo in negotiations. not if he's worth it, but when you increase the offer from 800k -> 1.2mm -> 1.5mm
i don't consider theo a 'great' gm. i think any contract offered to him would be sort of payback because the red sox won a world series under his gm-ship, and that the reasons they won the playoffs in '04 could very easily have switched with '03...or one of the previous years.
but he didn't deserve this.
I've defended Riccardi before, even after 04. I think he's done a fine job, keeping the team about the same quality while slashing bad contracts off the books. He looks now like he's got them set up to compete for a couple years.
i agree RE: ricciardi getting rid of the bad contracts; i was at a minor league game in ny state when it was announced the yanks got mondesi for a AA non-prospect, and i was the only one who thought it was wonderful for the jays to get rid of that contract. the prospects haven't developed as nicely as he'd have hoped, unfortunately.
Maybe it's because of circumstances but LL is not a big jerk relative to jerkdom. Sure, to MOST common folks he's a jerk. But not in major organizations.
I work in Investment Management, while not IB is pretty cut throat in itself. But LL still would be considered a prick in my company.
With that said I am turning in my "keys" to Sox Therapy. I won't support a team that allows LL to openly dictate policy. While it might have been going on for a while it was never open, and I always had the illusion that Port or Theo was in charge. Now that the illusion is gone so is my support.
If anyone wants to suggest to me a new team I'm open to ideas.
I will be avoiding SOSH like the gingivitis.
Okay, but if you do break down and visit the site, be sure to floss afterwards.
Perhaps Theo, having done what was once thought impossible, couldn't muster the same thrill and decided to walk away, before he was carried or dragged away.
dbacks. josh byrnes is true heir to throne of king theo!
uh, that's plaque sir.
Ah yes, the special demotivational plaque to break what's left of your spirit.
I doubt he is looking for hugs and ice cream in his next job. The man has seen other organizations and probably isn't holding any illusion about the industry as a whole.
Maybe it's because of circumstances but LL is not a big jerk relative to jerkdom. Sure, to MOST common folks he's a jerk. But not in major organizations.
If LL is a bigger jerk than can be found in many of the larger law firms, then he's world class. My guess is that by the standards I'd use to judge, he's an amateur.
It should be noted, LL was always a part of those orgs those, wasn't he?
Is it too late to fix this? I guess so. If we had not won the WS in 2004, my goodness, I'd be simply inconsolable right now.
There is some real sense to what Harvey has been posting here.
Lots of guys can hand out free cheese...if you wanna make the world a better place, continue to bring people joy by being the best GM the Sox ever had, Theo. That makes the world a little better. It's what your gift is.
Larry the Lobster and CHB. Vanity can destroy much...
Damn spelling error!!! I am not smart
I follow from afar as well, and from what I gather, if Theo really wants to be in charge -- Billy Beane-class in charge -- then he's got to leave Boston. Lucchino wasn't going to out-maneuvered in Henry's organization.
*trying to be positive here*
Harvey, I'm not being Pollyanna. I've worked with my share of high-flying lawyers and hedge-fund Masters of the Universe. (Have you?) I know that some play all the angles, and some are straight arrows. The real world is often complicated and messy, ethically. But it's really not all that hard to find circumstances where you can be comfortable that the people around you share common, wholesome values, and try to live right.
The world's very messiness is part of what makes Theo's stance so admirable. When the cynical manipulator you can no longer stomach is throwing several million your way to do a job you love in a city that's your home, it's more remarkable and admirable by several orders of magnitude that he said "no thanks."
I really don't think you carefully read the article Lucchiavelli fed CHB; if you did you'd see how dishonest and disrespectful it was to Theo. The kid could've shrugged it off (as I'm sure he's shrugged off lesser indignities). Lots of people probably would have. But he's made of better stuff, and until today I didn't realize how good it was.
He might wind up in LA or SD or Philly, but if he does it'll be with his pride and values intact. More power to him.
But I did get to hear Glenn Ordway apologize on the airwaves, so the day wasn't a total loss.
I'm only through this post, but at least there's finally some perspective. Greg may be younger by a decade or so than I am, but at least he's seen his team win a World Series, as opposed to say, seeing his team not win a playoff series. Or not even see his team make the playoffs until he was 18. Boston fans, let me tell you this: if you're asking for sympathy (and I'm not saying that you are) from fans of 8 teams in the AL who are aren't at least over the age of 20, then you can collectively smooch our rear ends.
1) You still get to hate the Yankees.
2) You get to cheer for Pedro again.
3) You get to watch David Wright every day as he develops into a superstar. (It's hard to put into words just how much fun this is.) It'll be like Nomar all over again, except this should end better.
4) You get to hijack threads whenever you feel like it.
If anyone wants to suggest to me a new team I'm open to ideas.
Unless I am mistaken, I think this is at least the second time I have read a semi-goodbye letter from Rauseo to Sox nation on this site. I will believe it when I see it.
Sox fans will get over this, this is not world ending. Daylight is good at arriving at the right time
It's not always going to be this grey.
It's not that I'm in a state of shock. It's just that this is so amazing to me that no response other than utter calm seems appropriate.
Me
It's not always going to be this grey.
Yeh, your right.
Devin's reason for supporting the Mets are great. I have a bet with a friend that David Wright will have a better career than Scott Rolen when all is said and done.
2) You get to cheer for Pedro again.
3) You get to watch David Wright every day as he develops into a superstar. (It's hard to put into words just how much fun this is.) It'll be like Nomar all over again, except this should end better.
4) You get to hijack threads whenever you feel like it.
You get to cheer for a lot of minority players.
Curt Schilling for GM
Sheesh, that's a mortal lock. And mind you, Rolen has a real shot at the HoF - well, a Santo shot.
Why not cut out the middleman and make the bloody sock the GM?
"drop the leash we are young. get out of my (forget)ing face" (leash).
"The bad feelings. It's just me. I won't wait for answers. You can't keep me here." (cant keep).
"And wherever you've gone and wherever we might go. It don't seem fair. Today just disappeared." (light years)
"No matter how cold the winter, there's a spring time ahead."
(thumbing my way).
God didn't care who won that, or any other WS. We've gone over that. ;-)
I agree with Harvey's take on the issue. It was written a few months back somewhere that Theo never intended to work in baseball long term, and that he wants to fund raise for non profits. Maybe that's where he'll work next.
Theo's reply, and I am paraphrasing, was "Let's just say that my first ex-GM chat will be a lot more interesting than my first GM chat."
I'm looking forward to that chat.
I think Theo would find a thrill in seeing his draft picks playing in Fenway, seeing if he could build a dynasty, seeing whether he could implement the dominant closer model. Between the ages of ten and 25, Theo saw a Sox team that produced little talent. Naehring, Valentin, Burks, Greenwell, Vaughn, Nomar, Nixon, and Sele. Seeing how excited Brewers and D-Backs fans are about their prospects, I can only imagine the thrill of being the person responsible.
They aren't all attracted to money. Folks also like to see their names in the papers outside of the financial section. This definitely diverts a lot of slime to sports. E.g., Del Webb, Charlie Finley. (Yes, I know Webb had other reasons.)
What I find laughable is that folks here think that by changing addresses you can find a place where everyone hugs each day and eats ice cream together on Friday afternoons.
Indeed; Theo is only 31, after all. But Red Sox GM was not his first baseball front-office job, so either he has elevated expectations, or Lucchino really is an awful awful person.
As was pointed out elsewhere, Theo hasn't worked in a FO w/o LL. The mass exodus of other FO personnel that is being reported bolsters the argument that LL is a complete ####, though.
Curtis Leskanic got out of a bases loaded jam against Flaxeed Oil Man.
There was divine intervention.
This is a very bad day.
If you are a Red Sox fan, it's time to panic."
No it isn't. The Red Sox have a lot of good players and a lot of money. Lucchino is an arrogant, pompous, self-righteous, unprincipled manipulator--but he is not dumb, not at all. The Red Sox will be fine.
Smart people aren't stupid enough to drive other smart people away.
I dont' know what I'll do. but it'll be violent
The transition cost will be huge, though, with all of the personnel they're losing. Even if they hire the pope of baseball (infallible) to be GM the odds of making a good deal this offseason are slim.
No, but smart people quite often let their personality interfere with their thought processes. If LL saw this happening elsewhere - to people he doesn't know - he might well conclude that the LL standin is being stupid. However, being in the moment and emotionally involved may keep him from thinking straight.
Smart people do dumb things all the time and usually for emotional reasons.
Of course, we're all assuming LL's goal is to keep his baseball staff together. We may not know his real goals and motivations.
I can attest to that personally.
But I'm not smart
He'd need a huge upgrade to make up for the transition cost this offseason.
I was once a CEO of a small tech company. A big portion of my job turned out to involve managing difficult personalities on the board of directors. Most of the board didn't respect my abilities, and I ended up not respecting some of them due to their difficult personalities. I stuck it out way too long. The day I quit my life became unbelievably happier (even with no job and no prospects), I only regret not quitting years before.
Congratulations to Theo for having such a healthy world view at such a young age. Condolonces to Red Sox fans. This is a situation where it's probably going to turn out worse for all involved. Larry and the Red Sox won't be as successful. Theo will never have another "dream" job to match the Red Sox. But Theo will be happier, and that's worth a lot.
Have there been other published reports suggesting this is true? And if so, what's the source of Lucchino's "special relationship" with Bud? Did Lucchino, in his years with the Orioles, teach Bud everything he needed to know about extorting money from local governments for new ballparks, and then repeat that with the Padres?
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