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Monday, October 31, 2005

Theo Walks Away from the Red Sox

Epstein had done some agonizing soul-searching the past few days, torn between staying at the job he had always coveted since his childhood days in Brookline and leaving because of intra-organizational politics and power struggles that he ultimately decided he could not live with any longer.

Now do you guys believe me about the factions?

Thanks to the quick link by Keith Willoughby.

Dan Szymborski Posted: October 31, 2005 at 10:47 PM | 350 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
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Page 4 of 4 pages  < 1 2 3 4
   301. WillieMays Haze Posted: November 01, 2005 at 05:31 PM (#1714603)
My question is, what does Theo do now?

Is he going to pursue another GM job in baseball?

What's this talk about being a social worker?
   302. Catfish326 Posted: November 01, 2005 at 05:33 PM (#1714608)
..........next page please.
   303. Psychedelic Red Pants Posted: November 01, 2005 at 05:34 PM (#1714609)
He'll be giving away free cheese, apparently.
   304. JPWF13 Posted: November 01, 2005 at 05:34 PM (#1714610)
It appears that he thinks he's a good negotiator as he keeps involving himself in negotiations and trying to negotiate "tough."

I once worked for a guy like that- he'd screw up 4 out of 5 deals, but every now and then his tactics would work- which had the unfortnate effect of reinforcing in his own mind the "rightness" of his method.
   305. Catfish326 Posted: November 01, 2005 at 05:35 PM (#1714614)
Although I love seeing the chaos in Boston, I don’t believe that Theo is everything he’s been made up to be. Just as everyone has echoed over the years, “The Yankees buy Championships. They should win . . . look how much more than they spend as compared to every other team.” Similarly, with Boston unloading money at the second highest rate, what’s amazing is that they have not won more than one championship over the past 87 years—at least over the past few decades. Just because Theo went to Harvard doesn’t make him a genius. He isn’t. (A new book has just been released showing how Harvard caters to its own kind, accepting students whose parents went there, instead of who deserves to be accepted.) The Sox were WAAAY over due to win a WS, especially in light of the amount of money they spend each year.
   306. Catfish326 Posted: November 01, 2005 at 05:35 PM (#1714616)
Although I love seeing the chaos in Boston, I don’t believe that Theo is everything he’s been made up to be. Just as everyone has echoed over the years, “The Yankees buy Championships. They should win . . . look how much more than they spend as compared to every other team.” Similarly, with Boston unloading money at the second highest rate, what’s amazing is that they have not won more than one championship over the past 87 years—at least over the past few decades. Just because Theo went to Harvard doesn’t make him a genius. He isn’t. (A new book has just been released showing how Harvard caters to its own kind, accepting students whose parents went there, instead of who deserves to be accepted.) The Sox were WAAAY over due to win a WS, especially in light of the amount of money they spend each year.
   307. Psychedelic Red Pants Posted: November 01, 2005 at 05:45 PM (#1714637)
Just because Theo went to Harvard doesn’t make him a genius.(A new book has just been released showing how Harvard caters to its own kind, accepting students whose parents went there, instead of who deserves to be accepted.)

Theo went to Yale. It may not make a difference to you but it makes a big difference to him, I assure you ;-). BTW, several of the Ivy League schools have policies promoting acceptance of "legacy" students. They're very open about it.

Similarly, with Boston unloading money at the second highest rate, what’s amazing is that they have not won more than one championship over the past 87 years—at least over the past few decades. ... The Sox were WAAAY over due to win a WS, especially in light of the amount of money they spend each year.

How long has Boston been such a high-payroll club? 5 years? Before the Manny contract, Boston was pretty "responsible" with its finances.
   308. greenback Posted: November 01, 2005 at 05:48 PM (#1714641)
The day I quit my life became unbelievably happier (even with no job and no prospects), I only regret not quitting years before.

This isn't the first time I've heard or read something like this from people in high places. Theo's bright enough to find something he can passionate about without making himself miserable.

And if so, what's the source of Lucchino's "special relationship" with Bud?

That's a good question.
   309. Psychedelic Red Pants Posted: November 01, 2005 at 05:52 PM (#1714646)
And if so, what's the source of Lucchino's "special relationship" with Bud?

That's a good question.


I think somewhere there's a sheet soaked in a dead hooker's blood from Larry and Bud's night out on the town.
   310. robinred Posted: November 01, 2005 at 06:03 PM (#1714660)
Lucchino is an arrogant, pompous, self-righteous, unprincipled manipulator--but he is not dumb

"Smart people aren't stupid enough to drive other smart people away."

Well, it's likely more about ego and abrasiveness than intelligence per se. LL is like a shark--always has to be taking a bite out of somebody--be it the Boston taxpyers or his own people. Since the Red Sox already climbed the mountain, he needs to have something happening, so to speak--a deal, a flare-up, a story. My guess is he will be out of Boston in a couple of years, anyway.

But I think he will make a pretty good hire to replace Epstein and the Red Sox will keep winning. He may interfere too much, but the Yankees seem to have overcome that all right.
   311. The Balls of Summer Posted: November 01, 2005 at 06:30 PM (#1714708)
It was written a few months back somewhere that Theo never intended to work in baseball long term, and that he wants to fund raise for non profits. Maybe that's where he'll work next.


Gee, and I currently raise money for a non-profit and would love to work in baseball. Think we can arrange a trade?
   312. scotto Posted: November 01, 2005 at 07:15 PM (#1714787)
Catfish posted this in the Lounge and I replied there, but now I see where it originated from so here's my response.

A new book has just been released showing how Harvard caters to its own kind, accepting students whose parents went there, instead of who deserves to be accepted.

I don't think that's quite what was said. Legacies do have a higher rate of acceptance than non-legacies, and anyone who's come close to an elite school would say to that news, "Well, duh." You know what, athletes have a better chance of getting accepted too!

Gladwell writes: about legacies:

Harvard admitted children of alumni at a rate more than twice that of non-athlete, non-legacy applicants, despite the fact that, on virtually every one of the school’s magical ratings scales, legacies significantly lagged behind their peers. Karabel calls the practice “unmeritocratic at best and profoundly corrupt at worst,” but rewarding customer loyalty is what luxury brands do. Harvard wants good graduates, and part of their definition of a good graduate is someone who is a generous and loyal alumnus. And if you want generous and loyal alumni you have to reward them. Aren’t the tremendous resources provided to Harvard by its alumni part of the reason so many people want to go to Harvard in the first place?


Athletes get accepted at a higher rate because they tend to go on to make a lot of money after college.

Male athletes, despite their lower S.A.T. scores and grades, and despite the fact that many of them are members of minorities and come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds than other students, turn out to earn a lot more than their peers. Apparently, athletes are far more likely to go into the high-paying financial-services sector, where they succeed because of their personality and psychological makeup.


It's all about the benjamins.

IIRC, there was a study that tracked the incomes of people who went to Harvard, vs. people who got accepted to Harvard but didn't go. There was no noticeable difference in their incomes.

Students from the very lowest economic strata do seem to benefit from going to an Ivy. For most students, though, the general rule seems to be that if you are a hardworking and intelligent person you’ll end up doing well regardless of where you went to school.


Just because Theo went to Harvard doesn’t make him a genius.

What is this in response to? I don't think I've seen any BTFer make this claim.
   313. villageidiom Posted: November 01, 2005 at 07:55 PM (#1714848)
Thought I'd finally weigh in.

1. This hurts the team. I think Epstein brings a lot to the table.

2. That said, no one player is irreplaceable. If his successor follows the blueprint, such as it is, the Red Sox will be fine.

3. Don't know if Theo & Larry had conflicts, but if so, and if Theo reached the conclusion that no amount of money would make it bearable, kudos to him. If anything, the recent leaks on the contract negotiations - if attributable to Larry - demonstrate that Larry isn't gonna change.

4. For those who want Lucchino fired - he has an ownership stake. Firing him will not change anything.
   314. SugarBear Blanks Posted: November 01, 2005 at 07:58 PM (#1714856)
Theo's true intellectual capacity can be judged by the fact that he went to the University of San Diego Law School.

Nothing against it, but with a degree from Yale he must have had really mediocre undergrad grades or LSAT scores to only be able to go to law school where he did.
   315. Catfish326 Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:14 PM (#1714893)
When I signed up to take the LSATs, a while back, the Law School that was most aggressively seeking applicants was San Diego Law School.
   316. Marc Sully's not booin'. He's Youkin'. Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:20 PM (#1714903)
Theo's true intellectual capacity can be judged by the fact that he went to the University of San Diego Law School.

Nothing against it, but with a degree from Yale he must have had really mediocre undergrad grades or LSAT scores to only be able to go to law school where he did.


He was working 60 hours a week for the Padres.
   317. villageidiom Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:27 PM (#1714910)
Nothing against it, but with a degree from Yale he must have had really mediocre undergrad grades or LSAT scores to only be able to go to law school where he did.
I believe he was working full time for the Padres when he attended law school. I'm assuming his criteria for where to get the law degree were along the lines of "offers classes at night or on weekends, in greater San Diego".

If you want a more prestigious law degree, you arrange your schedule to get it.
   318. Paul D (AKA The Other Canadian) Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:28 PM (#1714912)
He was working 60 hours a week for the Padres.

Is it possible to work 60 hours a week and go to law school part time?
That seems extremely unlikely to me.
   319. villageidiom Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:29 PM (#1714917)
Theo's true intellectual capacity can be judged by the fact that he went to the University of San Diego Law School.
And to be honest, when I read that I learned more about your intellectual capacity than Epstein's.
   320. Catfish326 Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:33 PM (#1714923)
He was working 60 hours a week for the Padres.

You mean to tell me a Yale graduate doesn't care about the ranking or prestige of the law school he attends? Ha! That's hilarious. Moreover, even at San Diego Law School, no student could possibly work 60 hours per week and attend law school full-time. Not even the Great Theo.
   321. Mefisto Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:38 PM (#1714929)
You mean to tell me a Yale graduate doesn't care about the ranking or prestige of the law school he attends? Ha! That's hilarious. Moreover, even at San Diego Law School, no student could possibly work 60 hours per week and attend law school full-time. Not even the Great Theo.


I think you missed the part about him taking classes nights and weekends. Law school anywhere is very difficult. Working full time while attending is much more so. Anyone who does that has my respect regardless of the formal "prestige" of the school.
   322. Shalimar Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:38 PM (#1714930)
In the last day someone picked up firelarrylucchino.com

I'm pretty sure pleasegodkilllarrylucchino.com is still available (not that I'm advocating that course). Let's face it, there is no way he's getting fired or bought out.
   323. BWC Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:39 PM (#1714932)
Yale graduates who want to work for a white shoe firm need to go to prestigious law schools. Yale grads who want to get a background in contract law to help them in overseeing a major sports franchise don't really need the piece of paper to come from anywhere with a nice US News ranking.
   324. Mister High Standards Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:46 PM (#1714944)
This team really isn't all that fun to follow right now.
   325. WalkOffIBB Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:46 PM (#1714945)
Is it possible to work 60 hours a week and go to law school part time?
That seems extremely unlikely to me.

Yes. It does not leave you much of a life, but it can be done.
   326. Harold Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:49 PM (#1714949)
Moreover, even at San Diego Law School, no student could possibly work 60 hours per week and attend law school full-time. Not even the Great Theo.

My old roommate was a USD Law student. After the first year, he spent darn near 60 hours per week drunk. I'm guessing Theo found the time.
   327. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:49 PM (#1714950)
a white shoe firm

Tarlek & Boone, LLC?
   328. Catfish326 Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:50 PM (#1714952)
Law school anywhere is very difficult. Working full time while attending is much more so. Anyone who does that has my respect regardless of the formal "prestige" of the school.

I concur. But, I still don't believe anyone can pull it off. I believe it's impossible, having worked part-time while attending law school myself. And, to think a student could just bust their balls evenings and weekends is unrealistic. Full-time students spend those same hours at those same times doing their reading, research, and homework. Not to mention, student's have nothing left to give. They're depleted. No one can go 24-7 for three straight years without sleeping.
   329. Eric Bartman Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:53 PM (#1714956)
My question is, what does Theo do now?

Is he going to pursue another GM job in baseball?

What's this talk about being a social worker?

Hey, he could replace Allard Baird and do both!
   330. JC in DC Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:54 PM (#1714958)
Is it possible to work 60 hours a week and go to law school part time?
That seems extremely unlikely to me.


I know someone who does this (#1 in his class at Georgetown Law, btw). What Theo did is very impressive, for sure.
   331. Catfish326 Posted: November 01, 2005 at 08:55 PM (#1714960)
Yale graduates who want to work for a white shoe firm need to go to prestigious law schools. Yale grads who want to get a background in contract law to help them in overseeing a major sports franchise don't really need the piece of paper to come from anywhere with a nice US News ranking.

Shyyaaa, right! A Yale grad doesn't care about prestige. Good one. Ego is king.
   332. Catfish326 Posted: November 01, 2005 at 09:09 PM (#1714982)
I know someone who does this (#1 in his class at Georgetown Law, btw). What Theo did is very impressive, for sure.

Working part-time and attending law school full-time IS very difficult. I did it, but many others have done it too. It's not that uniquely impressive. 60 hour work week and full-time law student. Nope. Impossible.
   333. BWC Posted: November 01, 2005 at 09:14 PM (#1714991)
Because, of course, there's nothing prestigious about any of the jobs that Theo's wound up with.
   334. tfbg9 Posted: November 01, 2005 at 09:20 PM (#1714999)
Theo said in an interview that he only enrolled in law classes where no attendance was taken. Then he crammed real hard.
   335. WalkOffIBB Posted: November 01, 2005 at 09:20 PM (#1715002)
I concur. But, I still don't believe anyone can pull it off. I believe it's impossible, having worked part-time while attending law school myself. And, to think a student could just bust their balls evenings and weekends is unrealistic. Full-time students spend those same hours at those same times doing their reading, research, and homework. Not to mention, student's have nothing left to give. They're depleted. No one can go 24-7 for three straight years without sleeping.

You are wrong. This is done quite frequently. Also, most evening law programs take four years (or more).
   336. WalkOffIBB Posted: November 01, 2005 at 09:27 PM (#1715010)
Working part-time and attending law school full-time IS very difficult. I did it, but many others have done it too. It's not that uniquely impressive. 60 hour work week and full-time law student. Nope. Impossible.

I think I see where the disconnect is. Likely, Epstein attended law school part time, as opposed to full time. This means evening classes, generally at 10-14 hours a semester, as opposed to 16-18 hours. Part-time and a 60 hour a week job are possible (but not a lot of fun).
   337. The Balls of Summer Posted: November 01, 2005 at 10:25 PM (#1715069)
Moreover, even at San Diego Law School, no student could possibly work 60 hours per week and attend law school full-time. Not even the Great Theo.


Maybe some of the legal people around here can weigh in, but I was under the impression that many law students work jobs/clerk at law firms during school. I understand that law school is hard, but it can be done.
   338. Psychedelic Red Pants Posted: November 01, 2005 at 10:29 PM (#1715082)
You guys are feeding this Catfish326 troll way too much. He's just going to keep coming back.
   339. Biff isn't really an apt handle anymore Posted: November 01, 2005 at 10:31 PM (#1715084)
Shyyaaa, right! A Yale grad doesn't care about prestige. Good one. Ego is king.

I'm glad you're here to give us your insight into Theo's mind. No idea where we'd be without you.
   340. tfbg9 Posted: November 01, 2005 at 10:49 PM (#1715114)
It is very much easier to attend law school when you can do so without having to actually show up for any classes...
   341. WalkOffIBB Posted: November 01, 2005 at 11:14 PM (#1715155)
Maybe some of the legal people around here can weigh in, but I was under the impression that many law students work jobs/clerk at law firms during school. I understand that law school is hard, but it can be done.

Almost all full-time students do during the summer (or some equivalent with a non-profit, judge or the like). Some work full time while attending law school part-time at night.
   342. smokhaus Posted: November 01, 2005 at 11:15 PM (#1715159)
I've been hearing that Brian Sabean was a likely candidate to replace Theo. So maybe Lucchino has cost two teams their GMs?


As a Giants fan, I have no problem with Sabean being lured away.
   343. Teufel's Graveyard Posted: November 01, 2005 at 11:27 PM (#1715177)
Theo is regarded as being sabr friendly, but he doesn't do the modeling/formula/algorithms himself right? Lets say that Theo takes a year or so off and his assistants get positions elsewhere, as rumored. Does Theo lose some of his talent as a GM without having access to the evaluation formulas?

When Depodesta was assistant to Beane, he said that Beane didn't know what Paul was doing, in terms of the specifics of evaluation. When Paul left, did Beane get access to that product? That is a subject that interests me, but I don't see it discussed.
   344. RB in NYC (Now with New Running Goal!) Posted: November 02, 2005 at 01:31 AM (#1715313)
When Depodesta was assistant to Beane, he said that Beane didn't know what Paul was doing, in terms of the specifics of evaluation. When Paul left, did Beane get access to that product? That is a subject that interests me, but I don't see it discussed.

I assume it was specfically discussed in DePo's contract and/or exit agreement with regards to just what of his work produce he left exclusively in Oakland, what he took with him exclusively and what was in Oakland and LA
   345. Shalimar Posted: November 02, 2005 at 02:01 AM (#1715343)
Maybe some of the legal people around here can weigh in, but I was under the impression that many law students work jobs/clerk at law firms during school. I understand that law school is hard, but it can be done.

Clerking is almost always either summers or after graduation when school isn't in session, so it isn't really applicable. As for jobs, there is no way he got through first year while working 60 hours a week; it isn't physically or mentally possible. That means for the first 9 months or so it is extremely unlikely he could have worked more than 20-30 hours a week. First year classes are the same for everyone, and the adjustment to seeing things from a legal mindset is much harder than you would think for most people. Starting with the summer after the first year, yeah, he could have worked 60 hours a week if he stretched out the difficult classes over multiple semesters, chose courses with minimal requirements to fill out the schedule, and had absolutely no other life outside work/school. Second and third years aren't anywhere near as time-consuming or rigorous unless you do outside-class activities like law review, etc.
   346. Paul S Posted: November 02, 2005 at 02:25 AM (#1715366)
I doubt many of the baseball people are going to be around. Lajoie quit almost immediately after Theo did, and it seems that a lot of people are following Byrnes to AZ.
   347. Vaux, A.B.D. Posted: November 02, 2005 at 04:46 AM (#1715461)
AZ's going to be a #### powerhouse once they get out from under the bad contracts. I don't think I've ever seen a team's future go from bleak to bright in such a short time.
   348. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: November 02, 2005 at 09:45 AM (#1715584)
A Yale grad doesn't care about prestige.

To tell you the truth, I only applied because I wanted to say to the Asian people that would whore themselves out to anything remotely Western that "I GOT INTO YALE, BIATCHES!"

I didn't in of course. Raci... right, WWJFD.

(You guys know Yale is being sued for racism by Asian Grad Students right?)
   349. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: November 02, 2005 at 12:19 PM (#1715609)
However, I don't think this necessarily spells doom for the future. The decisions beaseball operations has been making the last 3 years are the result of a lot of talented people, not just Epstein. If they can find someone who can fit in, then it will just be a hiccup, baseball-wise.
I hope so. The problem is, the Boston front office team is heading out of town. Bill Lajoie - Theo's top adviser - and Peter Woodfork - director of baseball operations - are gone. Lajoie resigned in solidarity with Theo, and Woodfork's going to AZ to work with Byrnes.

The whole front office team isn't gone, but a large percentage is. I figure the new GM will bring in a new system, generally.
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