You've got two outs in the 10th, nobody on, and a two run lead, and you can't retire any of the next three batters??? I'm sorry, but in that scenario, you've got to get a heck of a lot of the blame!

He was a short-reliever going through the lineup for the second time in his third inning of work. Had he ever pitched three innings of relief before the ALCS? (And since he didn't pitch well in the third inning of THAT outing, had he ever pitched well for that many innings at any point that year?) How many pitches had he been asked to throw to that point?

I dunno, I tend to cut short-relievers a little slack if they're asked to throw a third inning (after two extremely tense high-pressure innings). Especially if they'd pitched well to this point in both the regular season and postseason and especially if the only reason they were out there was because pretty much every other pitching option was worse (except quite possibly Stanley).

How tired did Schiraldi need to be before his not pitching well is justified? He'd pitched to 13 batters to get to that 2-out, none-on point in the 10th -- you don't think his having nothing left is at least partially excusable there?

How tired did Schiraldi need to be before his not pitching well is justified? He'd pitched to 13 batters to get to that 2-out, none-on point in the 10th -- you don't think his having nothing left is at least partially excusable there?

Point taken. Which is why, again, the fact that SO much of the blame has gone to Buckner, McNamara, Stanley, and Gedman (and has been deflected away from the closer who gave up the three hits that set the disaster in motion) is kind of rough justice. Schiraldi gets a break, justified by the fact he was left in too damned long, by the presence of so many other goats to share the blame with. I mean, do you really think the guy gets that much of the blame? I rarely hear him even mentioned; it's almost always McNamara and Buckner. You can't let Schiraldi off the hook entirely, can you?

I'm sorry for all the posts on Schiraldi,

Don't be - those are great posts. those are what I love about this site.

Eric M. Van's account....of the 1986 World Series

"And you know how they'll lose this game? Someone will hit a ground ball right through Buckner's legs."

As God is my witness.

That sounds about right.

Although I would have expected him to have made that comment in 1981.

Marshall Edwards, yes. Thomas was hobbling around on a bad knee that affected both his hitting and his fielding, especially on turf. The Cardinals hit 16 doubles, 3 triples and scored from second on a sac fly in that series. The Brewers could have sacrificed some power to put a little athleticism in the OF, at least at Busch. But I probably shouldn't have even brought it up. These are brighter days in Milwaukee.

You can't let Schiraldi off the hook entirely, can you?

I dunno. Entirely is perhaps a bit much, but I don't think he deserves much blame. It's like blaming Frodo for claiming the ring at the top of Mount Doom. I'm not sure it's fair to call Schiraldi a goat when he'd done well to get as far as he had.

I'm serious when I say it's McNamera, then Buckner, then Gedman <u>for the Series loss</u> and then a big gap. There were other people who didn't have good Series, but those three were far and away the biggest negative factors for the Red Sox.

Blaming Schiraldi for failing in the tenth is like blaming Rice for not driving in runners the one or two times he had opportunities -- it ignores that he had very few opportunities (thanks to Buckner's atrocious hitting) and ignores the fact that he did a good job of getting on base for others to drive in. There are plenty of mitigating factors to Schiraldi's failure (at least in game 6) that make it more of an ordinary failure to me, compared to the wretched performances of McNamera, Buckner, and Gedman.

I will readily admit that his performance in game 7 was awful.

Here's a good series of blunders: from November 1 1979, the date the Angels granted Nolan Ryan free agency, forward, the Angels at one time or another had:

Rance Mulliniks (95 Win Shares after leaving)
Willie Aikens (60 WS for team he was traded to, 69 overall after leaving)
Al Cowens (82 and 138)
Jason Thompson (80 and 81)
Carney Lansford (34 and 191)
Rick Miller (26)
Dickie Thon (75 and 142)
Brian Harper (4 and 83)
Tom Brunansky (98 and 174)

And traded them away for:

Al Cowens (10 WS in Angel uniform)
Todd Cruz (1?)
Butch Hobson (6)
Rick Burleson (30)
Ed Ott (3)
Mickey Mahler (2)
Ken Forsch (37)
Doug Corbett (19)
Rob Wilfong (20)
Tim Foli (10)

The players collected by the Angels had 138 WS in an Angel uniform, and those they traded way put up 554 for their news teams and 999 total.

Now, the Aikens/Cowens/Thompson circuit is a bit unfair, as that was a cycle of trades, but if you properly account for it, it still ain't enough.

OK, OK, Robert, they should have just sent Schiraldi to the firing squad before game six.

Buckner was playing hurt. You can blame McNamara for putting him in there, but you can't particularly blame Buckner for not picking up the Mookie. Buckner can be blamed much more for trying to stretch that double for the Dodgers in 1974 in game 5 of the 74 Series, which was about as boneheaded a play as there ever was.

Since I've missed the last few hours here, has Kevin or Flynn had anything to say about this? They're the big Red Sox fans.

They're the big Red Sox fans.

Just those two? You can't swing a loaded syringe in this place without hitting a big Red Sox fan. Actually, kevin did tell one guy to take the pacifier out of his mouth and go sit in the corner.

I haven't seen Rob's book, but if he doesn't devote four or five entire chapters to the history of the Giants, he's totally wasted his time.

batting leadoff - Johnny Lemaster

playing 1b - David Green and Enos Cabell

playing 3b - Joel Youngblood...

and don't even get me started with the ones they traded away....

and don't even get me started with the ones they traded away....

You mean, like, Eddie Fisher, Stu Miller, Manny Mota, Jose Cardenal, Orlando Cepeda, George Foster, Gaylord Perry, Bob Knepper, Rob Deer, Matt Nokes, Joe Nathan, and Francisco Freaking Liriano? Like those guys?

My head hurts ...

You mean, like, Eddie Fisher, Stu Miller, Manny Mota, Jose Cardenal, Orlando Cepeda, George Foster, Gaylord Perry, Bob Knepper, Rob Deer, Matt Nokes, Joe Nathan, and Francisco Freaking Liriano? Like those guys?

Steve, you really don't want to play this game with Mets' fans. We've had less time to do stupid things, and done more of them.

Though that is one impressive damn list, I have to say.

Though that is one impressive damn list, I have to say.

You'd be more impressed if I listed the driplets of cat pee they received in return. But I assure you I don't have the stomach for it.

Driplets of Cat Pee

Steve, I think you've found a title for your history of the Giants.

<i>I always wondered why Pedro Martinez told Grady Little that he felt fine when he clearly wasn't. Or why Varitek didn't say something.

Pitchers never, ever, EVER do this. It's just not something athletes do.

-Dick Williams pitching to Kirk Gibson in Game 5 of the 1985 World Series

It was obviously a bad move since Gibson crushed a pitch into Ypsilanti, but Gossage didn't want to walk him. You can see this on the World Series video - Williams asking Gossage what he wants to do, Gossage saying he wants to pitch to him, and Sparky Anderson jumping up and down and screaming at Gibson "He don't wanna walk you!".

Buckner was playing hurt. You can blame McNamara for putting him in there

Damn skippy. For the first time in, like, history, a defensive replacement 1B was pretty important and despite having Dave Stapleton on the roster for that very purpose and previously using Stapleton in that manner constantly, he was sitting on the bench while Buckner gimped out.

Had [Schiraldi] ever pitched three innings of relief before the ALCS? (And since he didn't pitch well in the third inning of THAT outing, had he ever pitched well for that many innings at any point that year?)

I've got no dog in this fight, but I just wanted to point out that, thanks to the wonders of Retrosheet, we can answer Robert that, in fact, Calvin Schiraldi pitched 3 or more innings six times during the regular season in 1986, during which time he gave up a total of 2 runs.

Here is Eric M. Van's account of the biggest blunder of the 1986 World Series from an earlier ST thread about that stupid Michael Keaton movie...

The fall of 1986 was my freshman year at college. Despite being primarily a Tigers' fan at that point, there was residue left from spending the first ten years of my life in Boston.

Watching Game 6 in the TV lounge of my dorm, I was white knuckled by the bottom of the tenth. When they got the first two outs, everyone started congratulating me. The words out of my mouth were, "I give the Red Sox a 50-50 chance of winning the Series." The only thing I forgot to do was pull a $10 bill out of my wallet and find out who would give me the best odds if I would put it on the Mets.

Steve, you really don't want to play this game with Mets' fans. We've had less time to do stupid things, and done more of them.

Steve only gave you about half the real list. He left out, just for example, Leon Wagner, Garry Maddox, Gary Mathews, and all 3 Alou brothers.

As a Phillies fan, I have to tell you guys that 'tis better to have had good players and lost them than never to have had good players at all.

To answer to question earlier, yes, the 1995 Yankee loss in 1995 is the worse in 40 years. It deprived Donnie Baseball of a chance of advancing to the World Series. I am still mad at Showalter for letting Cone throw 144 pitches. Doug Strange has not taken the bat off his shoulder yet.

Since I've missed the last few hours here, has Kevin or Flynn had anything to say about this? They're the big Red Sox fans.

Don't know Kevin and Flynn's take, but I'm in the McNamara (big gap), Schiraldi, Gedman/Stanley camp. I kind of give Buckner a pass, since I never thought the Red Sox would win Game 6 after the Mets tied the score. He just hastened the inevitable.

McNamara gets extra blame with me (and Toby, IIRC) for starting Hurst on short rest in Game 7 instead of Oil Can. I hated that decision.

On the 2003 series, I think you can make an argument that had Little started the 8th with Timlin and the Sox blew it, some fans would be complaining Little had taken the team's best pitcher out and left it up to a bullpen that had been, at least earlier in the season, the team's weakness. It was defensible only in the go-with-your-best school of management. (Though I wanted him gone after the seventh, since he obviously labored to close out that inning: Giambi's monster HR, back to back hits by WILSON and GARCIA and only getting Soriano because he knew he didn't actually have to throw a pitch in the strike zone.)


The problem is, even for fans who agreed he should start the eighth, after Jeter's double, most of them were in the go-to-the-pen camp. After Williams single, almost no one wanted him to stay with Pedro, and after Matsui's double, Grady Little was the only person in the free world who would have kept him in to face Posada. That's why Little is very justifiably roasted by Sox fans everywhere.

He was a short-reliever going through the lineup for the second time in his third inning of work. Had he ever pitched three innings of relief before the ALCS? (And since he didn't pitch well in the third inning of THAT outing, had he ever pitched well for that many innings at any point that year?) How many pitches had he been asked to throw to that point?

Can't answer the pitch question, but I can answer the rest. Yes, he had pitched three innings of relief several times that year. And yes, well.

You can check it out yourself at Retrosheet.

He was not a "short reliever" at all; he averaged 2 innings per outing.

Driplets of Cat Pee

Steve, I think you've found a title for your history of the Giants.

Excellent suggestion, but better yet, I think I'm gonna be gettin' the old band tagehta, but with a new name ...

When Pedro came out I was staring in shock and amazement at the TV. When he gave up the first hit, I started pacing and waving my arms wildly. As it continued to go downhill, I yelled at the TV.

This is the only time in my life that I can think of where I actually yelled at the TV.

This is not a matter of hindsight. I was astonished at the stupidity of bringing Pedro back out as it was happening.

It may have still gone badly had Little done it differently, but I can sure tell you I wouldn't have blamed him for the decision.

Greatest Managing Decision:

Pinch-hitting Fukudome

OMG that was F!@3ing genius.

When Pedro came out I was staring in shock and amazement at the TV. When he gave up the first hit, I started pacing and waving my arms wildly. As it continued to go downhill, I yelled at the TV....

This is not a matter of hindsight. I was astonished at the stupidity of bringing Pedro back out as it was happening.


Man, this was exactly my reaction, except that I was laughing the whole while. Everybody watching that game except Little knew that Pedro was gassed, and meanwhile that 0.00 ERA bullpen was just sitting there. I was just praying that he'd keep Pedro in, and my prayers were answered. Too bad God took a leave of absence after the ALCS, and BTW where in the Hell has He been hiding out since then?

Andy: Buckner was playing hurt. You can blame McNamara for putting him in there, but you can't particularly blame Buckner for not picking up the Mookie.

I blame him for hitting horrifically throughout (much as he was wont to do). And I blame McNamera for playing him as much as he did and putting him third in the lineup.

But I don't worry about the error (nor do I tend to worry about individual plays all that much). Bad things happen on individual plays all the time. Repeated bad play is what earns scorn/derision/goathorns/whatever. Buckner did pretty much nothing positive the entire Series. The only person worse for the Red Sox's chances than Buckner was McNamera for putting Buckner in such a prime position to do so much harm.

I also don't like focusing on the error because it ignores the hundreds of other times when players could have done things to win the game and failed -- fielding errors end up being more memorable, but all those times Buckner, say, grounded out or flied out with runners on were just as damaging in the long run as the one individual fielding error. But people focus on the error too much.

It's akin to (though not the same as) when people focus on Ortiz's late-game heroics and argue that this is a reason he is better than Alex Rodrguez. The problem is that if Alex Rodriguez is ending up with better overall numbers, it's entirely possible that Rodriguez's early-game heroics put his team in a position where they don't need late-game Ortizian heroics to win it. It's nice to have come-from-behind victories, but early leads/easy victories can be nice too, and they count just as much in the standings. I just think people get too fixated on what happens at the very ends of games or seasons or whatever, and they ignore that all the stuff earlier in the game/season was meaningful too. With better performances early in a game, a player doesn't need to be heroic at the end of a game. Likewise, if the Red Sox had done a better job of hitting and fielding (say) in the 8th inning of that game, they wouldn't have been in a position for... the stuff that people remember.

Andy: has Kevin or Flynn had anything to say about this? They're the big Red Sox fans.

*laughs* My apologies for merely being <u>a</u> big Red Sox fan as opposed to being one of <u>the</u> big ones.

Kiko Sakata: in fact, Calvin Schiraldi pitched 3 or more innings six times during the regular season in 1986, during which time he gave up a total of 2 runs.

Thanks for looking this information up for me. (And to David Nieporent who did the same). I didn't have time to look it up when I made the earlier post, but I would have done the research today if you guys hadn't looked it up for me.

SoSHially Unacceptable: Don't know Kevin and Flynn's take, but I'm in the McNamara (big gap), Schiraldi, Gedman/Stanley camp. I kind of give Buckner a pass, since I never thought the Red Sox would win Game 6 after the Mets tied the score. He just hastened the inevitable.

Like I say, I don't much care about what happened in the one particular inning. The truth is that Buckner had done more to lose the Series for the Sox even before that inning than anyone else. He hit horribly throughout. In fact, his batting line does not give an accurate representation of just how horrible he was. Look up how many third outs of innings he made. I did (at one point), and he made a ton. He was one of the biggest reasons why Jim Rice, the clean-up hitter, having a good Series, had 0 RBIs over the 7 games, despite batting behind Barrett (great Series) and Boggs (okay Series). Buckner was a one-man offensive wrecking crew. He was the (players') goat even if it had been Stapleton making the big error in game 6. Gedman too, for much the same reasons. I don't care about individual plays much, but both Gedman and Buckner hit horribly and fielded poorly throughout the Series. They were goats (if one uses such terms) even in the absence of "the passed ball" and "the error."

SoSHially Unacceptable: McNamara gets extra blame with me (and Toby, IIRC) for starting Hurst on short rest in Game 7 instead of Oil Can. I hated that decision.

Really? I sure didn't feel that way at the time (nor now). Hurst had been the Sox's best pitcher in the postseason, and he ended up pitching 5 shutout innings before tiring in the 6th. Meanwhile, Boyd hadn't pitched all that well in the ALCS or Game 3. (And my memory, which may well be wrong, is that he hadn't pitched all that great after coming back from his 'extended mid-season vacation' either -- I'll look this up later to see if I'm misremembering or not).

I dunno, when game 7 was put off for a day, I remember being ecstatic because it meant that Hurst could pitch -- I was positively thrilled that Hurst would get the start, rather than Boyd, and even with hindsight, I don't really have any problems with how he did that day. Might Boyd have done better? He sure might have, but I didn't have any confidence that he would pitch well at the time.

Boyd's performances, August/September of '86:



Obviously Boyd was better than I remembered over the last two months of the season, though not great. Over 85.2 IP, he had a 3.89 ERA (4.31 R/9IP, in a league with 4.61 R/G).

I think you may well have been right to wish Boyd had been pitching. My youthful reaction to Boyd's giving up 4 runs in the first inning of Game 3 was to think the game over -- that he shut the Mets down after the bad beginning was lost on me because the Red Sox did little offensively to get back into the game once they'd fallen behind. My reaction (at the time) to Boyd was much how people apparently in this thread and elsewhere react to Buckner/Schiraldi/et al. in that I took a single instance (the one bad inning) and drew way too many conclusions from it about Boyd's ability to pitch against the Mets, ignoring anything which didn't support my already-drawn conclusion.

Robert,

I don't think it was based on anything scientific beyond the belief that Hurst was not going to have much left in the tank. Moreover, I was a huge Boyd fan, so I probably had more faith in him than the average Sox fan (and was banking on a repeat of the ALCS, when he bounced back from a Game 3 loss to win later in the series).

The bigger question, looking back, is why McNamara didn't have him replace Hurst when the eventual fatigue set in. It's possible, having been passed over, that Boyd's somewhat fragile psyche had been damaged and made him a poor choice for pen work, though recognizing that would take levels of perception well-beyond Johnny Mac's apparent abilities.

Hi, everybody!!

Form today's Boston Globe, a letter from Lou Gorman:

"In a review of 'Rob Neyer's Big Book of Baseball Blunders' (Sports, June 4), you credit Neyer with revealing that in the 1990 the Houston Astros, at the time of the Jeff Bagwell trade, had asked the Red Sox--and me as the team's general manager--for Kevin Morton, Scott Cooper, Phil Plantier and David Owen in exchange for pitcher Larry Andersen.

This information is absolutely fallacious and has no basis in fact.

Had the Astros asked us for any of the aforementioned players in exchange for Andersen, I guarantee you that Bagwell would have spent his entire career in a Red Sox uniform, for I would not have hesitated to trade any one of them for Andersen. The first and only player that Houston asked us for was Jeff Bagwell. It was a tribute to their scouting and foresight.

I made this trade to strenghten our bullpen, hopefully win the division title (since there was no wild card in those days), abd face the Oakland A's for the right to go on to the World Series. Unfortunately, a very talented A's team, led by Jose Canseco, Mark McGwire, Dave Stewart, and Dennis Eckersley, stood in our way.

To Bagwell's everlasting credit, and thanks to his tremendous makeup, he would go on to prove our projection of his power potential erroneous, and would become a National League All-Star. But to set the record straight, the only player the Astros were after in the Andersen trade was Bagwell. I wish it had been otherwise.

James "Lou" Gorman
Weston, MA"

I made this trade to strenghten our bullpen, hopefully win the division title (since there was no wild card in those days)

Even if there had been, the Red Sox wouldn't have been the Wild Card in 1990. The White Sox were six full games better than the Red Sox.

Even if there had been, the Red Sox wouldn't have been the Wild Card in 1990. The White Sox were six full games better than the Red Sox.


Whew, good thing they won the division then, huh?

Is it ALWAYS about the World Champion White Sox??? ;-)