As always, an interesting read and my thanks to the author. Like many, I like to weigh this view versus personal opinion.

Some may find Prince Fielder's "0" status surprising but the youngster really is quite mobile for the amount of bulk on his person.

But did anyone else notice the overall horrid ratings for the Reds except for Phillips? 1st base, third base, left field, right field. Good heavens. It's one thing to see them not make plays and another to really KNOW how bad it is for the Cincy pitching staff.

Grady Sizemore as one of the worst CFers in the game? Bull$hit.

"but no one has talked about A-Rod’s difficulties in the field"

That's because he isn't having any. He's also 4th in the AL, 8th in the majors in ZR.

Anyway, a first baseman saving 20 runs in a third of a season? David Wright saving 24 runs (he's obviously having a good year, but 24 runs?) and I haven't heard anything from Sam M or other Mets fans telling us how he deserves the gold glove for this and the next ten years? Part of it is that Gassko is an arrogant prick who is wrong alot for a guy who is so sure of himself. But there are a lot of suspect things going on, and in enough cases, there are complete disagreements from STATS ZR, which Dial and MGL, whom I am more likely to trust, use. I'm not buying it.

I'm surprised by Andruw's rating - to these eyes, he's been very good (better than the last four years, and noticeably thinner as well) but not as good as he was in the 1998-2002 peak. Still, I think he's comfortably above average, which makes Jayson Stark's column look a little silly.

Uribe at -6 is surprising.

Nice to see Travis Buck ranking well in right field...now if he could learn not to injure himself while making plays,then we'd have something.

Troy Tulowitzki is both outhitting and outfielding Stephen Drew by substantial margins. And he's a year and a half younger.

Fortunately for them, the DBacks still have Eric Byrnes.

Troy Tulowitzki is both outhitting and outfielding Stephen Drew by substantial margins. And he's a year and a half younger.

Of course, we all know that 2 months worth of hitting/fielding data are sufficient to not only give us the true offensive/defensive value of a player, but also to predict the next 15 years of any major league player. Time to enshrine Troy in the Hall of Fame.

Fortunately for them, the DBacks still have Eric Byrnes.

No, fortunately for them, no matter how badly Drew is being out-hit and out-fielded, they're still ahead of the Rockies in their division.

I'm surprised that taguchi has a positive rating anywhere in the field (at left he's +4) I thought you had to actually make a play to get any ratings. From a cardinal eyesight I say these ratings missed on Kennedy (not a +5, at best +1) Eckstein(not a +2 at best a -2) Taguchi(sorry worse fielder in baseball, manny is better, I know he always does well in these things, but just watch him for one minute in the field and see how bad he is, he can't judge a ball,horrible first step instinct and pulls up short on balls he could have made a play on, not to mention he's had at least two balls hit his glove this year and skip out) Duncan (no way -7, closer to 0 especially considering the others at his position) Edmonds (no way is he 0 this year -2 would be optimistic)

I like seeing things that think Albert is as good as my eyes say, but I have to agree that some of these numbers are way too high for the short portion of the season.

we all know that 2 months worth of hitting/fielding data are sufficient to not only give us the true offensive/defensive value of a player

It worked for Eric Byrnes.

Whats the difference between this and ESPN's Zone Rating?

Yes, it did. EByrnes's entire value as a player was defined by his career as a Rockie...

Speaking of that, I heard that Byrnes got shipped out to the Orioles because he didn't take to Helton's religious rah-rah in the clubhouse. "We can't outplay them, but we'll outpray them"...

Yeah, I'm sure you "heard that."

Byrnes got shipped out so the Rockies could get Larry Bigbie and flip him to Boston in the infamous Kelly Shoppach trade that the Red Sox weaseled out of.

Whats the difference between this and ESPN's Zone Rating?

Balls fielded in and out of zone are counted separately. Plus two different data sources, different scorers, and slightly different definitions of what a fielder's zone is.

If the results conflict with UZR, then go with UZR. Its the more detailed system.

Unless the system has been updated, outfield zone ratings should be suspect because they are using the same zone for flyballs and linedrives. STATS uses a smaller zone for liners than for flyballs. If all outfielders faced an equal percentage of flyballs and linedrives, this would be a non-issue, but they don't.

Balls fielded in and out of zone are counted separately. Plus two different data sources, different scorers, and slightly different definitions of what a fielder's zone is.

How is the +/- calculated?

Tony Pena is so much fun to watch. That's all I have to add.

Comparing the list to personal observations...

I can't think of a way that A-Rod could be -8 already.

Ahh, Larry Bigbie. He just signed on with the Richmond Braves. Remember when Prospectus loved him?

How is the +/- calculated?


Dial explains this in his Dr Strangeglove series. One thing that I've worndered is how theese systems treat double plays for the middle infield guys. I think that Dial's system adjust for outfielder baserunner kills, but I'm not sure if the other ones do.

Zone rating doesn't do anything with double plays.

Wow, that's roughly 1 out of every 7 plays that a shortstop makes.

Well, they get credit for fielding a ball and recording an out, its just that zone rating doesn't see a 6-4-3 any differently than a 6-3. In the early 90's ZR gave double credit when a DP was started, and the results were a mess. Double plays shouldn't be ignored, but its not what zone rating is designed to measure.

Part of me knew that, AROM. I just forgot it.

Question: Are these data Gassko presents ZR or UZR? I see no "UZR" references in the article. If it's just zone rating data to date, are we really looking at who "ARE" the worst/best defenders or rather who has accumulated X ZR statistics to date. Good defenders must have good/bad streaks same as hitters, no?

Byrnes got shipped out so the Rockies could get Larry Bigbie

Am sure that was the reason...

cfb:

I watch a lot of NL Central games (big surprise), and I can believe Everett's numbers. He is a wuss at the plate but man can he pick it. He's Mark Belanger reincarnated.

Question: Are these data Gassko presents ZR or UZR? I see no "UZR" references in the article. If it's just zone rating data to date, are we really looking at who "ARE" the worst/best defenders or rather who has accumulated X ZR statistics to date. Good defenders must have good/bad streaks same as hitters, no?

***

They are BIS Zone Rating. I had a long explanation of it in the article originally and then decided to cut it out. Maybe that was a bad decision.

Anyways, here is how BIS Zone Rating differs from STATS:

(1) The zones are smaller, so less balls are counted as in-zone. I think this is a good thing, as it makes for a more granular understanding of what is in-zone and what isn't. It's not a huge deal, however.

(2) Plays made out of zone are split out separately. STATS Zone Rating equals (Plays in-zone + Plays out-of-zone)/(Balls-in-zone + Plays-out-of-zone). The way I use BIS data, it's (Plays in-zone + Plays out-of-zone)/(Balls-in-zone), which means we're not punishing rangy fielders or over-rewarding sure-handed ones. It does, however, mean that a player who gets a bunch more pretty good opportunities out of zone might end up overrated, but that's a risk I can live with.

(3) BIS does not count line drives as plays made for infielders, which I think is the right call.

(4) BIS does not have separate zones for outfield flies and line drives, which as Sean points out definitely has an adverse effect on the outfield ratings. I tend to trust them anyways, but less so for sure.

Overall guys, let's remember that we're only two months into the season. Manny Ramirez is still on-pace for 20 home runs, Nomar Garciaparra still has a lower OPS than Darin Erstad, and Magglio Ordonez is hitting .364. With defense, because of the uncertainties involved in even a good defensive metric, the possible weirdnesses are even greater, and they don't necessarily mean anything. Extreme values will regress to the mean, good fielders will rise to the top, etc. I really tried to make that clear in the article, but it's clear that not everyone got that.

Thanks, DSG, that answers my question. So the data are raw and you make a calculation to determine ZR for this data set only. There are no regressions, extrapolations, or projections involved.

And your last paragraph dovetails with my main point in bringing this up.

BIS does not count line drives as plays made for infielders, which I think is the right call.

I'm sure there's a good reason for this, but it seems to me to be akin to leaving out Texas Leaguers when calculating batting average. Thanks for the clarifications.

Some may find Prince Fielder's "0" status surprising but the youngster really is quite mobile for the amount of bulk on his person.

Funny you should mention this. I always felt that ol' Cecil never got the credit he deserved. He was no Mattingly/Hernandez to be sure but whatever he could get to was handled well.

He had soft hands for a big guy [c'mon people, there's an opening and you know you wanna] and didn't muff many throws or ground balls in his direction.

Best Regards

John

david, if i understand the article correctly, these are gross numbers of runs rather than per 150 games, correct? how is it possible for wright to be 24 runs above average in a third of a season?

david, if i understand the article correctly, these are gross numbers of runs rather than per 150 games, correct? how is it possible for wright to be 24 runs above average in a third of a season?

***

Yes, you do understand correctly. Obviously, the +24 is inflated and Wright has been a little lucky. But I'll give you the breakdown anyways:

Wright has converted 75.5% of 102 balls in-zone into outs versus a league average of 68.7%. That makes him 7 plays above average. He also has 41 outs out-of-zone, which is 11 more than the next-best player, Ryan Zimmerman. Overall, that's .402 outs out-of-zone per ball in-zone versus an average of .176. That's 23 plays above average, or 30 overall. Converted to runs, that's about 24.

Most likely Wright has had a lot more chances out of zone than we would expect. Nonetheless, no matter how you slice it, he has been very good in the field thus far.

Remember when everyone freaked out last year after the Yankees traded for Abreu? Suddenly, it doesn’t look like they got such a hot deal. What is it with players going to the Yankees and falling off the earth?

What is it with the writer? When did he write this, last month? Abreu had a OPS+ last year of 144 and this year is 102 after a terrible start. I'm not sure that his defense is that bad either--at least his range factor is about average.