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Monday, January 07, 2008

THT: Walsh: Best Outfield Arms of 2007

Cripes…even Ida Greenberg left Juan Pierre in the ashes

dust.

I usually, for purely selfish reasons, hope that Ichiro will take the top ranking in my analysis. In 2005 Suzuki came out about average (in right field) and in 2006 he ranked fifth among right fielders (5.1 Runs/200), but that didn’t meet the expectations of his many fans, a goodly number of whom wrote to say that my rankings were, ahem, less than accurate. His 2007 performance, now in center, was almost a carbon copy of 2006. I suppose I should be expecting some email.

Have a look at Nick Swisher’s Kill+ — actually, he doesn’t have one. To be fair, Swisher did have one extra assist in his 481 center field innings. The Oakland outfielder also played around 400 innings in right field, where he recorded a grand total of two assists (both extra) and had a Runs/200 of -0.4. I’m not sure how the A’s plan to deploy Swisher and Travis Buck in left and right field, but it actually (from the throwing viewpoint) doesn’t matter much. Buck was pretty bad, too, in limited action (-9 Runs/200 in 57 opps). [Update: scratch that last thought, Swish is now a White Sox.]

...Juan Pierre had the worst arm of any full-time center fielder, but that is no surprise to anybody. No need to split hairs with Pierre, his is truly a noodle arm, and it’s definitely not al dente (sorry).

Repoz Posted: January 07, 2008 at 06:01 AM | 22 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
  Related News: GeneralSabermetrics

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Page 1 of 1 pages
   1. BeanoCook Posted: January 07, 2008 at 06:31 AM (#2662150)
So why is A Soriano so damn good with his arm in the OF? Clearly he is. Most people have been surprised by this. Is it possible techniques are more important than arm strength?
   2. AJM Posted: January 07, 2008 at 06:45 AM (#2662159)
Doesn't Soriano have good arm strength? He was a shortstop in the minors. Being compared to other left fielders also helps.
   3. BeanoCook Posted: January 07, 2008 at 06:46 AM (#2662160)
I thought his arm strength was regarded as average, maybe a tick above.
   4. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: January 07, 2008 at 06:55 AM (#2662165)
So why is A Soriano so damn good with his arm in the OF? Clearly he is. Most people have been surprised by this. Is it possible techniques are more important than arm strength?

How much of this is due to teams testing him because he was playing a new position? Probably not much as it is now two years in a row he has posted stellar numbers in this area.
   5. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: January 07, 2008 at 07:49 AM (#2662173)
How much of this is due to teams testing him [Soriano] because he was playing a new position? Probably not much as it is now two years in a row he has posted stellar numbers in this area.

We can answer that question. In 2006, Soriano had one of the lowest Hold Rates among left fielders (96). He was the only above-averge LF with a sub-100 Hold Rate. In 2007, Soriano had the third-highest Hold Rate among left fielders (108). Teams were testing him when he first moved to the position, but last year it was quite the opposite.
   6. DCW3 Posted: January 07, 2008 at 08:00 AM (#2662175)
I wonder where Ankiel would have ranked if he'd had enough opportunities to qualify.
   7. Miko Supports Shane's Spam Habit Posted: January 07, 2008 at 08:20 AM (#2662179)
Brian Giles was last among RF's. That makes the last play of game 163 all the more dramatic.

Also interesting is that Brad Hawpe is 6th from the bottom. He's not one you'd expect to see towards the bottom of the page...throwing is his one defensive skill.

He was 2nd best in 2006, and about a third from the top in 2005. So...is there a sample size limitation here for single-year stats? (Green was last in 2005 and 2006, btw, and Francoeur was 1st and 5th).
   8. Russlan will never be fond of Jason Bay Posted: January 07, 2008 at 08:49 AM (#2662183)
Thanks, DLGM.

What are the chances that Soriano makes the HOF? He may end up with something like 425-450 homers and 350-400 stolen bases. Those are pretty nice numbers. The OBP is nothing special obviously but he does have a slugging percentage of over .500 in his career so far. He'll have to age well but he certainly has a chance.
   9. El Hijo del Ron Santo (Alan Keiper) Posted: January 07, 2008 at 11:57 AM (#2662193)
Soriano only has two top ten MVP votes (third and sixth). Unless he hits a milestone like 500 home runs, I doubt he'll make it in.
   10. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: January 07, 2008 at 12:27 PM (#2662201)
Repoz, seeing as how this was a reference to last night's Desperate Housewives episode, I hope to God its not the last one of your intros I actually get (it was the first).
   11. Chris Dial Posted: January 07, 2008 at 01:48 PM (#2662215)
The run value seems to be too high. I only get Cuddyer saving about 8 runs (4 holds at ~0.3 runs for an extra base = 1.2) and 9 kills (at 0.6 runs - a base and an out = 5.4). then extrapolated from 164 chances (6.6) to 200 chances (200/164*6.6 = 8).
   12. RB in NYC (Now with New Running Goal!) Posted: January 07, 2008 at 02:22 PM (#2662237)
Matsui at nearly +3 per 200! I have a vision of Michael Kay reading this article somewhere going "Quick release! He's got a quick release! Like a cobra! Quick! Quick!!!" until Danny Aiello comes in to calm him down.
   13. John Walsh Posted: January 07, 2008 at 02:25 PM (#2662240)
Chris/11,

Not all kills have the same run value. The 0.6 that I gave in the article is an average for the "extra assists".

Each of the five "standard" categories gets its own run value -- actually, two, depending on if there are two outs or not.

If you play around with the run expectancy matrix you'll see that, e.g., throwing out a runner at home on a single is worth more than .6 runs, in fact, it's worth upwards of a run in the case of fewer than 2 outs. The run value is even higher for Situation 3, a runner trying to score from 1B on a double. Cuddyer had nine kills in those two situations when five were expected.
   14. Chris Needham Posted: January 07, 2008 at 02:35 PM (#2662245)
I didn't see Soriano this season, but in '06, it wasn't so much his strength but his ungodly accuracy. He was hitting the second baseman on the fly in the perfect spot to make a tag. Think about how often you see a throw come in to the bag that forces the fielder to move for the ball. Soriano's throws never (ok, that's a bit much!) did that.

We can answer that question. In 2006, Soriano had one of the lowest Hold Rates among left fielders (96).

Looking at that and the rankings this year for National's fielders, I think there's a bit more of a park adjustment that needs to be made to really account for the giant pasture the Nats play in. Their fielders play a lot deeper than the average team, making first-to-third practically automatic. (of course the adjustment takes care of some of that, but as the article notes, it does present sample size problems).
   15. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: January 07, 2008 at 02:38 PM (#2662247)
Is it possible techniques are more important than arm strength?
Technique has some importance. I recall reading something about Frank Howard not having a good OF arm despite some background as a pitcher. It may have been in the NBJHA.
   16. Robinson Cano Plate Like Home Posted: January 07, 2008 at 02:45 PM (#2662251)
How about this explanation for Soriano:

He's got a top CF/RF arm in LF. If he'd come up as an OF, somebody would have noticed this long ago and had him switching between CF and RF, maybe settling in RF if he didn't have the range in center; maybe stretched out at CF for a few season. His numbers look so high in LF compared to a bunch of guys who have been selected over the years for guys who don't have the arm to play the other positions. This metric looks at expected kills & holds, so it's comparing only to other LFers. Most of those guys are in left (in part) because of their poor arms--Soriano's only in LF by "accident."
   17. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: January 07, 2008 at 02:50 PM (#2662254)
He's got a top CF/RF arm in LF.

That is part of it.

One thing I've noticed watching Soriano is that he will throw the ball without going through the elaborate set and fire which the vast majority of outfielders rely on. Now, I wouldn't be teaching anyone to make offbalance throws from the outfield but I think that is how Soriano gets so many kills despite the growing awareness of his abilities.
   18. Chris Dial Posted: January 07, 2008 at 09:17 PM (#2662699)
Each of the five "standard" categories gets its own run value -- actually, two, depending on if there are two outs or not.

If you play around with the run expectancy matrix you'll see that, e.g., throwing out a runner at home on a single is worth more than .6 runs, in fact, it's worth upwards of a run in the case of fewer than 2 outs. The run value is even higher for Situation 3, a runner trying to score from 1B on a double. Cuddyer had nine kills in those two situations when five were expected.


Hmmm, I can't see that. I mean, sort of, when you are counting a "run realized", but I think game situations really affect that. And a team that plays more close games has more opportunities for that (maybe you accounted for all that).

Looking at R1O0 going to R13O0 vs R1O1, I see your 1.3+ runs, but are youbstracting throws to third that don't get the runner,and allow the trail runner to move up? Throws to home often result in that? Are you analyzing the game state after each throw, rther than just the lead guy(You may have said this and I missed it).

Game situation may need to be considered if you are giving full RE credit.
   19. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: January 07, 2008 at 09:24 PM (#2662709)
Seems people are still running on Melky. They'll learn. Oh, will they learn.
   20. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: January 07, 2008 at 09:41 PM (#2662729)
One thing I've noticed watching Soriano is that he will throw the ball without going through the elaborate set and fire which the vast majority of outfielders rely on. Now, I wouldn't be teaching anyone to make offbalance throws from the outfield but I think that is how Soriano gets so many kills despite the growing awareness of his abilities.

interesting point. Hadn't thought about that.
   21. Al Kaline Trio Posted: January 07, 2008 at 09:54 PM (#2662745)
Have a look at Nick Swisher’s Kill+ — actually, he doesn’t have one.


Now the trade makes sense!
   22. John Walsh Posted: January 08, 2008 at 05:35 PM (#2663428)
Chris/18,

I do take into account the game situation. In fact, the average run values are calculated from the data itself, which includes, of course, the advancement of additional runners, etc.
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