True enough, TVerik. A more accurate way of stating my opinion is: He elevates the Yankees' catching situation from bad to mediocre by being better than average 4-5 days a week and being relieved twice a week by Molina/Moeller.

latroy "the fat lady" hawkins was traded to the houston astros ... no word yet on how many baseballs the yankees got in return.

you just gotta love ed wade ...

Got a link that this is done, culty? I see a variety of "close to a deal" articles.

Do they do barbeque in Houston? A few dozen brisket sandwiches might have been enough to get that deal done.

Now if the Red Sox trade Manny for crap, it would be the best single day of fandom I've had in years.

Rotoworld sez:

Astros acquired RHP LaTroy Hawkins and cash from the Yankees for infielder Matt Cusick.

Good news and bad news for Hawkins. On the one hand, the chance to return to the NL should help his numbers and his chances of landing a significant major league deal this winter. On the other, the other teams that were after him, the Twins and Tigers, were legitimate contenders, while joining the Astros only guarantees that he'll have October off. He'll help set up for Jose Valverde. Cusick, a 2007 10th-round pick, was hitting .285/.356/.462 as a 22-year-old in low-A ball. He's unlikely to ever see the majors.

So the sandwiches might have been a better deal.

Can you provide one shred of evidence that he's only average. Or that he's below average?

Oh good lord.

First of all, I never said or even implied that he's below average.

As for a shred of evidence that he's about average, I would say that his past 1800 at bats are such a shred. His sOPS+ as a catcher over the last four years have been 105, 107, 101, and (300 at bats worth of) 111. Is that "above average"? In a literal sense, sure. Even that 101 was "above average". But, Jesus Christ, I'm not saying he's exactly average and Farnsworth is exactly average and they are exactly equal to each other and blah blah blah. I'm saying that this trade is not outrageous.

And yes, obviously his arm improves upon that somewhat. But it's not like his CS% is unheard of, and it's not as good as it used to be.

Would you next like me to defend my claim that Ivan Rodriguez is the worst player ever, and Kyle Farnsworth is the best player ever?

Wow. We get rid of Farnsworth and Hawkins in the same day? Well done Cashman!

kellerman may have been absolutely right about the true value of the save and closers, but Philips was also right in that F-Rod is probably going to be far and away the best closer available in free agency, and some team will overpay F-Rod very handsomely to fill their perceived need for a "lights-out closer".

But it's not like his CS% is unheard of, and it's not as good as it used to be.

No, but it's still one of the best in the majors today.

And significantly worse than, oh, Molina's.

I haven't read the rest of the thread, but...

So how do the roster moves go now? Who replaces Farnsworth in the pen?

And significantly worse than, oh, Molina's

who can't worth a damn.

among catchers who can bat well enough to hold down a starting job, it is second best in the majors.

Don't call me a troll, unless you want me to call you a dumb ####. I haven't done any trolling. I've said that this trade was not outrageous. I've said it seems to be a trade of essentially average players. I've backed that opinion up with numbers.

In response, people (yourself included) have:

(1) Disputed my claim (which I never made) that Pudge is not a significant upgrade over Molina.

(2) Disputed my claim (which I never made) that Pudge is below average.

(3) Called me a troll.

I might be wrong, but you haven't shown that, and I'm not trolling, you dumb ####.

I'm done with this conversation. Goodbye.

The outrage here is a bit over the top. Cashman doesn't use Jedi mind tricks, and Detroit undoubtedly explored other options before deciding this was their best deal. How many teams were interested in trading for an expensive, almost 37-year old catcher with very high mileage? Apparently, very few. Farnsworth does have a 113 ERA+, and perhaps Detroit thinks he has a chance of reverting to the form he showed closing for Atlanta.

Just wondering, if Boston wasn't so busy trying to dump Manny, would they have found a way to upgrade from Varitek to I-Rod? We'll never know.

I dunno. This might be addition by subtraction. Like the man said, Brandon Inge to catcher might be an upgrade at this point.

What would make sense of it is if the Tigers are saving a bunch of money. Is it really only $2.5?

Also Pudge might be an upgrade for the Yanks but he's not a dealmaker anymore. Still I do think that it is the Red Sox who are going to drop out, not the Yankees and not the Rays.

Who is will arguing with? I didn't see anyone call him a troll.

I didn't see anyone call him a troll.

It was later edited

Detroit knows that they have to pass the Yanks to get the wildcard, right? Why are they giving them a piece they desperately need?

And I didn't think this was that bad until I saw Farnsworth's peripherals. He's terrible, just awful. There's not reason to trade a reasonably decent player for him.

Boston would not have replaced Varitek with IRod, regardless of Manny. He's the captain of the team, he's extremely streaky and looks awful when going bad. They'd have a mutiny if they replaced him and they probably would not have improved the team.

I've said it seems to be a trade of essentially average players. I've backed that opinion up with numbers.

Except that the numbers don't support you. Pudge is clearly an above-average player. He is no longer what he was 5 years ago, but he clearly is an above average catcher, both as a hitter and gunning down baserunners.

Boston would not have replaced Varitek with IRod, regardless of Manny. He's the captain of the team, he's extremely streaky and looks awful when going bad. They'd have a mutiny if they replaced him and they probably would not have improved the team.

I think you are half-right here. I think they could definitely improve the team by replacing Varitek with a superior catcher. I-Rod is a better at both ends of the game now. But you are absolutely correct that there is no way they would replace their team captain in the middle of a pennant race.

They'd have a mutiny if they replaced him and they probably would not have improved the team.

Agree. Disagree.

Off topic here, I increasingly believe that Varitek/Red Sox just isn't going to end well.

How certain are you that Pudge is better than Varitek? Varitek outhit him last year and probably projects about the same going forward. Pudge throws better but Varitek has a better reputation in game calling and blocking pitches (maybe?). They're close.

How certain are you that Pudge is better than Varitek?

Very. Last year is over. Projections based on last year do not take into account the expiration date on some catchers. Varitek has looked very toasty all year long, and does not seem to be getting better.

This year Varitek has thrown out 12 of 67 about baserunners, around 18%; Pudge has thrown out 18 of 50, or 36%

Reputation in game calling does not mean much, and even as to that, Pudge's reputation has gone up since he left Texas.

Now, if JV can pull off a dead cat bounce and prove me wrong, more power to him. But so far, we have seen no sign of it.

Offensively, I'd go with the surefire Hall of Famer to hit better during his decline years. Pudge is only five months older than Varitek, who appears (at least to me) to be in steep, steep decline.

Defensively, I'm not all that sure what I think at this point.

I think Pudge would be a definite upgrade over Tek at the plate. And a possible upgrade in the field. But I agree with both you and Srul that there's no way that the team would or should replace the captain at this point in the year.

We have seen him hit well earlier in the year and then have a long horrible stretch. That's how he does it.

Any reasonable projection would include his performance from last year as well as this one, whether you throw in a magical expiration date or not.

You can say that calling games doesn't mean much, but really we just can't measure it. Those aren't the same thing.

So how do the roster moves go now? Who replaces Farnsworth in the pen?

I'm wondering that myself. Patterson and Britton are both on the 40 man roster, but if they move Jorge to the 60 day DL, they have another spot don't they? I don't see anyone that really deserves to be added over those two though, maybe Strickland because he has experience? Maybe Aceves as insurance for Kennedy? I'm betting Patterson since they hate Britton. And then when Bruney is ready, he pushes Patterson down again.

You can say that calling games doesn't mean much, but really we just can't measure it. Those aren't the same thing.

I'm not convinced Tek calls a good game. There are plenty of Sox fans who criticize his game calling. Certainly enough for me to not consider it a given that he calls a great enough game to make up for not being able to throw or hit (for the time being).

Varitek is toast. No question in my mind.

Cashman doesn't use Jedi mind tricks, and Detroit undoubtedly explored other options before deciding this was their best deal. How many teams were interested in trading for an expensive, almost 37-year old catcher with very high mileage? Apparently, very few.

So hang on to him and see if you can make up the ground in the standings. What does this trade accomplish other than save money? It certainly doesn't help for next year, and arguably it hurts next year.

And I didn't think this was that bad until I saw Farnsworth's peripherals. He's terrible, just awful. There's not reason to trade a reasonably decent player for him.

Farnsworth is only being included in the deal for salary reasons. He's making $6m this year, which is obviously way more than he's worth, so it means the Yankees only have to take on about $2.5m in salary. If it had been I-Rod + cash to the Yankees for some minor-leaguer, the deal would have had to be approved by the commissioner's office - this gets around that.

You can say that calling games doesn't mean much, but really we just can't measure it. Those aren't the same thing.

My point here is that, in trying to compare the two, there really is no way to weight this. There are those who say that Pudge did a great job with young staffs in Florida and Detroit. There are those who say that Varitek is a great receiver. There is really no evidence to support one over the other. If you want to say that Varitek is so much better than IRod at this, that it makes up for everything else, fine, but as there is no hard evidence to support that, I would just call it a wash.

Any reasonable projection would include his performance from last year as well as this one

Projection systems are a lot of fun, but they are not the end-all and be-all of player analysis. If somebody is doing very badly, and looks very badly, and plays a position where sudden declines are common, I don't know that I would take much comfort in a projection system.

They're not the end-all be-all but they are a lot better than arbitrary expiration dates. Varitek looks very bad right now, but you must realize that he looks very bad during some portions of every season. This may be his death spiral but it may also be his usual pattern.

Varitek.

I was very upset about this initially, but now not as much as before, though still somewhat; the difference was made when someone pointed out that the Tigers wouldn't have offered him arbitration, and so wouldn't have gotten the draft picks. Now it's just pointless and aesthetically displeasing, because I like Rodriguez and dislike Farnsworth.

I don't think that handing a rival a decent player at the point of its biggest weakness for a couple of months "pointless", Vaux.

Well, it would be bad if the Tigers really had a chance at the playoffs, but they don't. 5.5 back doesn't look like much, but they're behind two teams that are good enough not to collapse sufficiently for the Tigers to catch up. With the Tampa, Boston, and New York thing going on, the wild card is completely out of the question.

you must realize that he looks very bad during some portions of every season.

This bad, for this long?

Any reasonable projection would include his performance from last year as well as this one, whether you throw in a magical expiration date or not.

This is ridiculous. When an old player plays terrible and looks terrible doing it there is nothing "magical" about suggesting that they might have lost their skills. I bet you thought signing Andruw Jones was a good idea.

Yeah, and I bet he thought the Yankees should have kept Mike Mussina's carcass in the rotation this year, too.

Rotoworld might be being a little harsh on Cusick, but they are right that he is doubtful to matter in this trade.

His college (USC) rep was as a "plays above his tools" guy. Hes a 2b/3b whose having a nice, but not great, low-A year. 280/350/450, roughly 40 Ks and 40 BBs in 340 ABs. 7 steals, 1 caught. Good gap power numbers.
Maybe a utility man someday but he might also be close to as good as he'll ever be right now.

And I didn't think this was that bad until I saw Farnsworth's peripherals. He's terrible, just awful.

His homerun / flyball rate is awful, which leads to an awful FIP, since FIP assumes that homerun / flyball rate is entirely skill. THT has his HR / FB rate at 21.5%, Fangraphs at 20%. His K and BB rates are decent.

That homerun / flyball rate is a career high, and pretty much out of line with his career average of 12.3%

Varitek looks very bad right now, but you must realize that he looks very bad during some portions of every season. This may be his death spiral but it may also be his usual pattern.

Varitek is hitting .154/.246/.222 over his last 49 games. Yes, that's a selective endpoint, but we're talking about "very bad stretches".

For comparison's sake, his worst 49-game stretch last season was .215/.349/.316, and his worst 49-game stretch of 2006 was .225/.304/.390.

Both of those stretches are better than his overall 2008 numbers.

Yankee fans have very little faith in Farnsworth. though his last season with the Tigers was his only truely very good season.

In the end. Pudge can't possibly be a downgrade From Molina without some serious natural or man made disastor. while hoping that Inge would be the starting C is a bit risky, and what El Farnsy will give the Tigers is basically up in the air. he might go on another 05 esque run, or suck, or just continuing his usually decent, occasionally horrible and often frustrating trick.

From a total prespective, it would appear that the Yankees are more likely to gain more wins from this than the Tigers, which is a serious problem considering that the Yankees are 4.5 games ahead of the Tigers in the WC. unless the Tigers figure they end up winning the division (which isn't entirely impossible if Carlos Quineten has another one of his yearly 30 day DL stint again.) but this seems like a meh move for the Tigers while a obvious upgrade for the Yankees.