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Tuesday, January 01, 2008

Times-Herald: Buscema: First Hall of Fame ballot no easy decision

Far from the Madden crowd? And here I thought all the new voters might bring change. Hardy har-har.

Raines’ name was removed from my ballot at the last possible moment.

When he was in his first full season with the Expos, Raines admitted cocaine use, sought help and is thought to have been drug-free ever since making a mistake when he was a “young, young, young 20,” as he said in one interview. The rest of his career and status as a great teammate and leader was enough to make me consider overlooking the offense because cocaine is an addiction more than a performance enhancer, but three things finally tore at my gut enough to take him off my ballot for now:

1. He admitted sliding headfirst the year he used because he kept coke in his uniform pocket and didn’t want it to fall out — which is an act as disrespectful of the game as you can imagine.

2. As a player whose key Hall of Fame attribute was his speed, I want to examine a little further whether the use of a stimulant could have enhanced his performance whether he used it for that purpose or not.

3. He wasn’t a surefire Hall of Famer without that issue by any means; in fact, I had only seriously considered him after several compelling columns turned my head.

Repoz Posted: January 01, 2008 at 07:50 AM | 33 comment(s)
  Related News: GeneralHistoryHall of Fame

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   1. JMM  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 09:15 AM (#2657860)
1. He admitted sliding headfirst the year he used because he kept coke in his uniform pocket and didn’t want it to fall out — which is an act as disrespectful of the game as you can imagine.

Really? More disrespectful than when Clemens threw the bat at Piazza? More disrespectful than when Rick Bossetti(?) pissed in the OF? More disrespectful than http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7CCga0nbG8? And those are things that actually happened, so we don't have even have to imagine them.
   2. Marc Sully's not booin'. He's Youkin'.  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 09:30 AM (#2657864)
Strong intro, Repoz.

And by "strong" I mean I get it.
   3. Belfry Bob  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 10:41 AM (#2657878)
Wow. What about those traffic tickets he got? Did he pay them all?

What a load of sanctimonious $@$#^&.
   4. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 10:47 AM (#2657880)
I'm assuming that Buscema would not have voted for any HOFer who came to a game drunk during Prohibition, too.
   5. Wes Parkers Mood (Mike Green)  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 10:55 AM (#2657881)
Paul Molitor?
   6. JRVJ (formerly Delta Socrates)  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 10:57 AM (#2657882)
It's pretty clear that HoF writers fill-in their ballots in the weirdest ways possible.

It's also clear that ANYONE can find fault with a sentence in an article.

That being the case, Buscema looks like he will come around on Raines and Blyleven in the near future (I don't think Rice is getting in, so Buscema'll probably keep on voting for him).

He's certainly not infatuated with Morris or Concepción, so he's not too far away from getting to the promised land.
   7. Dag Nabbit: formerly tolerant of lactose  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 11:21 AM (#2657888)
After a week in which my ballot occasionally varied from having anywhere from one to six names, the final tally was two:

Goose Gossage.

Jim Rice.


Wow.

Both could go in this year, too. In face, Gossage will go in. I wonder if he'll vote for anyone next year. My hunch is that he'll find someone else on the ballot to come around on. Especially since he admits serious consideration for Raines, Blyleven, and Dawson.

Blyleven is one, as his 287 wins, devastating curve ball and consistently low ERA will make me seek out some of his contemporaries to discuss him this year.

Paging Rich Lederer. . . .
   8. sunnyday2  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 01:04 PM (#2657923)
It's pretty clear that HoF writers fill-in their ballots in the weirdest ways possible.


Well, hello. How can I be smarter than all you dumb-asses who don't rate a HoF ballot if I don't mind-#### the whole thing?
   9. smilinmike  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 01:44 PM (#2657953)
1. He admitted sliding headfirst the year he used because he kept coke in his uniform pocket and didn’t want it to fall out — which is an act as disrespectful of the game as you can imagine.

I can imagine quite a bit.
   10. CFiJ  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 02:21 PM (#2657966)
If Tim Raines didn't slide, like Bump Bailey, I could see docking him for it. But he did slide. He just didn't slide feet-first. Really, is this such a horrible thing? Does it really wipe out kicking his addiction, being honest about, and being one of the game's upstanding citizens for the rest of his career?

And, uh, I know it's called "speed", but AFAIK no one believes methamphetamines actually make you faster.
   11. Best Dressed Chicken in Town  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 02:23 PM (#2657967)
Wow, what an #######. I mean, he is using the integrity and character clauses to dock a guy for maybe a year, and he wants more time to study the possibility of coke as a PED. Really, these people who consider all the issues and then come to different conclusions than us should just be stripped of their ballots!
   12. robneyer  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 03:25 PM (#2657990)
So far, nobody's mentioned the most hilariously revealing line in the whole column.

Anybody want to take a guess? Hint: it's not about a particular player.
   13. Srul Itza At Home  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 03:26 PM (#2657994)
Didn't Rickey Henderson slide head-first almost all the time?
   14. a bebop a rebop  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 03:34 PM (#2657997)
He's not reading disrespect into the head-first slides, but into having cocaine in his pocket while he was out on the baseball field.

Not that that's a good reason, but I can understand the sentiment. We like to imagine these games as being pure tests of skill, untainted by the outside world. Finding out he had cocaine in his pocket kinda ##### with your nostalgia trip, for a sentimental kind of person.
   15. PreservedFish  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 03:37 PM (#2657998)
I think the point was not that the cocaine was there at all but that its presence altered his style of play - that on the basepathes Raines was not concerned only with trying to score but with trying to score without busting his dimebag.

Which raises the question: do players that allow their chewing tobacco or sunflower seeds to affect their manner of play also rank with Raines as the most disrespectful imagineable? There must be dozens of runners that have slid headfirst to avoid incurring the tin Skohl container's wrath.
   16. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 03:37 PM (#2657999)
Rice qualifies as the best left fielder of his era


I guess if you leave out Henderson and Raines, I would agree.
   17. robneyer  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 03:38 PM (#2658000)
Yeah, but ... Mickey Mantle almost certainly played while hung over. As have many, many other players. But when the Mick does it, it's "colorful".
   18. gay guy in cut-offs riding a stegosaurus (MH#1F)  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 03:40 PM (#2658001)
Anybody want to take a guess? Hint: it's not about a particular player.

Sure, I'll take a swing at it. How about this one:

"Amazingly, they are the players my instinct initially told me to select."

?
   19. Kiko Sakata  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 03:46 PM (#2658003)
"Rice qualifies as the best left fielder of his era"


I guess if you leave out Henderson and Raines, I would agree.


Well, Rice's prime (as has been mentioned ad nauseum around here) was 1977-79, which pre-dates Henderson and Raines by a few years. Without thinking too hard (so I might be forgetting someone), Rice probably is the best left-fielder in baseball from 1977-79, maybe even 1975-79. Of course, 3-5 years isn't much of an "era".
   20. Teheran's Uranium Enriched Missiles  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 03:51 PM (#2658006)
Anybody want to take a guess? Hint: it's not about a particular player.

But in paving the way for future pitchers by rehabbing from the arm surgery named for him, I’m going to give him a closer look next year.
   21. Mbvlckd  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 03:52 PM (#2658007)
This is my guess of what Rob's referring to:

My Hall of Fame standard is not based on who is already in — I had no say in those players, though I did compare these candidates to players I would have selected for the Hall in the past. I want an elite Hall, in which only the best players — if not of all time, at least of their era or position — enter.


He's trying to rewrite Hall standards to suit his personal taste.

He's probably not the only one -- the excuses writers have come up with to exclude Raines have been remarkably creative, from Vince Coleman comparisons to headfirst slides to turning his high stolen-base percentage into a negative...
   22. robneyer  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 04:03 PM (#2658013)
Hampton's #1 Fan got it (sorry I didn't pipe up earlier; had to walk the mutt).

To me, that summarizes in an incredibly few words the problem with the typical voter: he has a gut feeling, spends hours and hours considering the issues . . . and winds up right where he started. I do appreciate the efforts, and I know that voters do occasionally change their minds after doing the work. But most of the time they've already made up their minds and there ain't nothing changing them.
   23. gay guy in cut-offs riding a stegosaurus (MH#1F)  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 04:06 PM (#2658014)
Aww, yeah. Whose house? MIKE'S HOUSE.
   24. Confined to the Halls of Congers (formerly Y...)  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 04:14 PM (#2658016)
I just watched "Idiocracy." Has anyone else rented it? I loved it.

Anyhoo, this column fits right into the theme of the movie.
   25. David Nieporent (now, with child)  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 04:37 PM (#2658021)
To me, that summarizes in an incredibly few words the problem with the typical voter: he has a gut feeling, spends hours and hours considering the issues . . . and winds up right where he started. I do appreciate the efforts, and I know that voters do occasionally change their minds after doing the work. But most of the time they've already made up their minds and there ain't nothing changing them.
Yes, as epitomized by the fact that he proclaims that he's going to define his own standard for the Hall -- the elite players of all time -- and then he picks Jim Rice.
   26. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 04:56 PM (#2658026)
How many pitchers have had a season better than Dwight Gooden had in 1985? I don't think you need to use all the fingers on one of your hands for the answer.* Therefore, Doc for the HOF!

Making up my own standards is sure fun!

* Please don't take me up on this. Just making a point. :-)
   27. Player X  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 05:27 PM (#2658035)
Re #19:

George Foster says hi.

Not to hijack the thread, but is there more of a dime's difference between Rice and Foster? Not that either could carry Raines' jock (or coke vial).
   28. Kiko Sakata  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 05:32 PM (#2658037)
is there more of a dime's difference between Rice and Foster?


No (hey, I said I wasn't thinking too hard). If anything, my impression is that the NL was the tougher league in the late '70s, which would probably put Foster on top. And, of course, expanding the list to include ALL corner outfielders you get Dave Parker beating Rice over Rice's peak and Ken Singleton making a pretty decent argument (again, just off the top of my head). I certainly didn't mean to imply that this was a good reason to elect Jim Rice to the Hall of Fame.
   29. Player X  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 05:36 PM (#2658038)
Kiko,

Agreed completely, but it alternately fascinates and baffles me that HoF voters fixate on a particular candidate (see Bruce Sutter or Tony Perez) while ignoring (or having ignored previously) players of equal or greater value.
   30. John Northey  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 08:32 PM (#2658071)
I get a laugh (sad laugh) out of the times you see someone mention that Raines drug use, then confessing to it and trying to be a role model, as a negative. Think about how rare that is. A player confessing to drug use while playing then going out and doing everything he can to help cut its use by others. If, say, Canseco came out in 1988/89 and confessed to using steroids and how he now knows it was very wrong and that he would lead by example just think of what a difference it could've made. Might not have made any, but it sure would've helped a heck of a lot more than, say, McGwire 'not talking about the past', Palmeiro saying he never took them, and Canseco himself coming out with a book after he retired. Heck, even today I'd put Canseco above the other drug users just due to the fact he admitted it and forced the issue on MLB, even if it was in a very self serving way.

Sigh. One day we might see writers go out and practice what they preach (ie: not shooting the messenger when someone confesses) but I am not holding my breath.
   31. Joshua Gibsons Ruth (Voxter)  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 08:58 PM (#2658081)
It would be interesting to know how many of these sportswriters did cocaine when they were young. Of course, it would also be none of our god damned business.
   32. baudib  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 09:21 PM (#2658086)
Confessing to drug use was trendy in the 1980s.
   33. Dan Szymborski  Posted: January 01, 2008 at 09:43 PM (#2658091)
If they did sim scores for drug use, Molitor and Raines would have like a 980 for each other. Did Molitor's drug use ever come up even as part of the discussion when he was up for a vote?

Also, chalk this article up as another example of amphetamines being mentioned to bash an 80s/90s player. Amphetamines must be pretty damn magical things. After starting out as a Tang/KoolAid hybrid, such as the harmless Mountain Berry Punch that Mays was giving out, sometime around 1979-1981, amphetamines somehow acquired performance-enhancing properties.
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