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Wednesday, August 20, 2008

Times Union: McGuire: Bull Durham gets its due at the Hall of Fame

The Baseball Hall of Fame has reversed one of the most egregious decisions the institution ever made.

“Bull Durham,’‘ the best baseball movie ever made, is getting its day, as the Hall of Fame will salute the film Sept. 19 as part of its three-day Film Festival.

Five years ago, then-Hall of Fame President Dale Petroskey canceled a 15th anniversary celebration of the 1988 film. His shaky reasoning simply rooted itself in politics: Two of the movie’s stars, couple Tim Robbins and Susan Sarandon, were vocal opponents of the Iraq War.

The decision at the time rankled many in and outside of the Hall of Fame; I was among those who argued that baseball and politics should remain separate, that there are enough things that divide us as there is. (Robbins and Sarandon, both big baseball fans, had vowed not to use the appearance for political purposes.)

Petroskey, a former Republican official, said earlier this year he wish he could have had a do-over.

And Bruce M. points out the HOF Press Release.

Repoz Posted: August 20, 2008 at 07:15 PM | 138 comment(s)
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   1. Sam M. Posted: August 20, 2008 at 07:40 PM (#2910757)
The best movie ever made that used baseball as its motif. Funny, adult, great acting. Love that movie. It ain't about baseball, and yet it's all about baseball. Did I mention I love that movie?
   2. kevin Posted: August 20, 2008 at 07:46 PM (#2910769)
You like it because you have a thing for Kevin Costner. C'mon, admit it, Sam.
   3. Sam M. Posted: August 20, 2008 at 07:59 PM (#2910799)
He's OK, but I'd trade him for Albert Pujols.
   4. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: August 20, 2008 at 08:08 PM (#2910824)
The best movie ever made that used baseball as its motif. Funny, adult, great acting. Love that movie. It ain't about baseball, and yet it's all about baseball. Did I mention I love that movie?


I'd give the nod to the original Bad News Bears, but Bull Durham was quite good.
   5. T.J. makes a mochary or the sport Posted: August 20, 2008 at 08:11 PM (#2910830)
I'd give the nod to the original Bad News Bears

I hadn't seen this movie for a long time. I showed it to my then-10-year-old. Wow, the language! But it was HI-larious (after I put him to bed and watched the rest by myself).
   6. OCF Posted: August 20, 2008 at 08:15 PM (#2910838)
Anyone remember The Bingo Long Traveling All-Stars and Motor Kings?

A question for CBW or any other mechanics expert: suppose someone from Hollywood called you up saying they were making a baseball movie. The lead actor last played baseball at the age of 12 in Little League. What could you accomplish in a few weeks if the objective were to make said actor look good while pitching or hitting? (You don't have to worry about where the ball actually goes, the movie guys can take care of that later.)
   7. Dayn Perry Posted: August 20, 2008 at 08:42 PM (#2910908)
Gotta say I think "Long Gone" did the whole hardscrabble minor leagues thing much better than BD did. William L. Petersen was great, and Virginia Madsen >>>>>>> Susan Sarandon.
   8. Sam M. Posted: August 20, 2008 at 08:49 PM (#2910924)
Gotta say I think "Long Gone" did the whole hardscrabble minor leagues thing much better than BD did.

I don't think Bull Durham was really mostly about the hardscrabble minor league thing -- it just used that as a backdrop. It used it brilliantly, and mined it for tremendous humor as well as some of the offsetting sad moments in the story. But Bull Durham was about the choice Annie had to make between the life she'd been living (represented by Nuke, just a continuation of the year-by-year relationships she'd had for who knows how long), and the life she'd always been afraid to live (with Crash, who represented something so much more dangerous and so much more real). Or maybe she wasn't afraid -- just never had the chance to, because how often do guys like that come along? But the movie is really about callow v. experience, and the relationship between them. And that could be in a steel mill, a war zone, or a minor league ball club in Durham.

Love it, love it, love it.
   9. Chase Utley, America's Favorite Robot (Joey Belle) Posted: August 20, 2008 at 08:52 PM (#2910930)
Eight Men Out is my pick. One of the finest historical dramas ever filmed.
   10. AndrewJ Posted: August 20, 2008 at 09:07 PM (#2910970)
I've always been partial to Bang The Drum Slowly, myself.
   11. Neil Kinnock...Lord Palmerston! (Orinoco) Posted: August 20, 2008 at 09:11 PM (#2910980)
Nobody appreciates Major League III: Back to the Minors?
   12. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 20, 2008 at 09:14 PM (#2910987)
There is Air Bud: Seventh Inning Fetch, and then there is every other movie ever made.
   13. Chase Utley, America's Favorite Robot (Joey Belle) Posted: August 20, 2008 at 09:16 PM (#2910992)
There is Air Bud: Seventh Inning Fetch, and then there is every other movie ever made.


Air Bud totally went down hill after Air Bud: Golden Spike. The lack of diamond thieves, beach volleyball, and Gabrielle Reece really brings down the quality of his later work. Plus by then he was feeling the heat of the M.V.P.: Most Valuable Primate franchise. It's hard to compete with a chimpanzee on ice skates.

Nobody appreciates Major League III: Back to the Minors?


As far as Major League movies go it's my third favorite.
   14. AndrewJ Posted: August 20, 2008 at 09:17 PM (#2910995)
There's always William Bendix as Babe Ruth, hitting his 60th home run of the 1927 season -- repeat, 1927, during Prohibition -- at Yankee Stadium complete with a huge beer advertising sign in the outfield.
   15. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 20, 2008 at 09:22 PM (#2911015)
It Happens Every Spring.

That is all.
   16. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 20, 2008 at 09:24 PM (#2911018)
Oh, and as always, I hope Petroskey dies filthy and naked in a gutter somewhere, weeping softly over the ruins of his life.
   17. AndrewJ Posted: August 20, 2008 at 09:27 PM (#2911025)
Damn Yankees is a much better movie musical than Take Me Out to the Ballgame (which has Sinatra and Gene Kelly).
   18. Pastor Toastman (PH) Posted: August 20, 2008 at 09:31 PM (#2911031)
Plus by then he was feeling the heat of the M.V.P.: Most Valuable Primate franchise.


Which was just a rip-off of "Ed."
   19. Chase Utley, America's Favorite Robot (Joey Belle) Posted: August 20, 2008 at 09:41 PM (#2911047)
Which was just a rip-off of "Ed."


Take that back.
   20. Monty Posted: August 20, 2008 at 09:47 PM (#2911055)
The first one was a ripoff of "Ed", but by the second one ("Most Vertical Primate", in which the chimpanzee learned to skateboard X-Games-style), it was blazing new trails. Groundbreaking!
   21. Never Thought of Listach as a Sexual Reference Posted: August 20, 2008 at 10:18 PM (#2911079)
Rose always goes in front.
   22. Benji Gil Gamesh Posted: August 20, 2008 at 10:46 PM (#2911106)
But Bull Durham was about the choice Annie had to make between the life she'd been living (represented by Nuke, just a continuation of the year-by-year relationships she'd had for who knows how long), and the life she'd always been afraid to live (with Crash, who represented something so much more dangerous and so much more real). Or maybe she wasn't afraid -- just never had the chance to, because how often do guys like that come along? But the movie is really about callow v. experience, and the relationship between them.

I sortof agree, especially about the callow vs experience, but I think Crash is as much the central character, needing to make the same kind of choice, as Annie.
   23. scareduck Posted: August 20, 2008 at 10:55 PM (#2911112)
Hate Tim Robbins' politics. Love this movie. Glad to see they've rectified this egregious error.
   24. Ray DiPerna Posted: August 20, 2008 at 11:00 PM (#2911117)
(Robbins and Sarandon, both big baseball fans, had vowed not to use the appearance for political purposes.)


Would be funny if Robbins and Sarandon were to launch into a political tirade against McCain during the upcoming ceremony. With the election only 6 weeks away at that point, can they really be trusted? :-)
   25. Benji Gil Gamesh Posted: August 20, 2008 at 11:03 PM (#2911118)
Would be funny if Robbins and Sarandon were to launch into a political tirade against McCain during the upcoming ceremony. With the election only 6 weeks away at that point, can they really be trusted? :-)

I'd hope we could trust them to do so.
   26. VoodooR Posted: August 20, 2008 at 11:04 PM (#2911119)
It Happens Every Spring.

My grandpa used to break this movie out every April. Several times I joined him. Haven't seen it since he passed. I really ought to.
   27. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 20, 2008 at 11:07 PM (#2911122)
Pride of the Yankees
   28. robinred Posted: August 20, 2008 at 11:19 PM (#2911127)
Gotta say I think "Long Gone" did the whole hardscrabble minor leagues thing much better than BD did. William L. Petersen was great, and Virginia Madsen >>>>>>> Susan Sarandon


I have mentioned Long Gone in these threads before. It is underrated, and Madsen acts well in it and is sexy (does a cool, brief nude scene). I like Sarandon OK as an actress but do not find her at all attractive, which takes the movie down a notch for me given her role. But I like Bull Durham--I think it well-written and well-cast.

Petersen is now on a certain level a bigger star than Costner due to CSI (Fishburne is apparently taking over for him--I have never seen CSI).
   29. rembini06 Posted: August 20, 2008 at 11:26 PM (#2911129)
I think I've seen Long Gone, but it has been a while. Does he play a character who lost a position battle with Musial?
   30. robinred Posted: August 20, 2008 at 11:40 PM (#2911137)
Does he play a character who lost a position battle with Musial?


Yeah. It is set in the 1950s. At the end, IIRC, he has a chance to get a job in the Cardinal system--his dream--if he sits out a game to allow the Cards' affilliate to win the pennant. He is about to but then doesn't do it, and they win the pennant when he is hit by a pitch with the bases loaded. IIRC the Tampico Stogies, his team, is independent, so there is a little independent vs. controlled minors David/Goliath message there.

It is well-done, but I saw the ending plot device as a bit contrived. One thing I like about BD is that there is no "big game" moment.
   31. TWO!-OH!-OH!-OH! CLAP!-CLAP!-CLAP!CLAP!CLAP! Posted: August 20, 2008 at 11:40 PM (#2911138)
I hope Petroskey dies filthy and naked in a gutter somewhere, weeping softly over the ruins of his life.

He's now some suit in the Rangers front office, so he's definitely on the right path.
   32. Wheelhouse Posted: August 20, 2008 at 11:42 PM (#2911139)
Okay, I admit there are some good baseball movies out there, but for sheer movie magic nothing tops Field of Dreams. When Moonlight Graham steps off the field and transmogrifies into Burt Lancaster with a medical bag, it gets me every time. Anyone ever notice his only plate appearance with the ghosts was a sac fly? Even with the ghosts, he never got an official at bat.

Plus, the James Earl Jones monologue about base...ball marking the time is an all-time classic.
   33. Deadball... With the Power To Melt People's Faces Posted: August 20, 2008 at 11:42 PM (#2911140)
Long Gone has a line I wish I would have taken to heart earlier:

"I'm gonna tell you one of the great truths you'll learn: All girls f#*&."

"Yeah, but this one's real religious."

"when I said all girls, I meant all girls. It's a fact."
   34. Exploring Leftist Conservatism since 2008 (ark..) Posted: August 20, 2008 at 11:46 PM (#2911145)
Virginia Madsen >>>>>>> Susan Sarandon.

Hmm. This is a tough call. Madsen's a little beefy, but it looks good on her, while Sarandon looks great, but she's not particularly sexy, oddly enough. Does anyone here find her genuinely attractive? You'd think she would be, with her raw attributes. Maybe she's a little too toolsy for me, and not enough production...
   35. Ray DiPerna Posted: August 20, 2008 at 11:55 PM (#2911149)
Madsen looked better at her peak; Sarandon has aged better.

This is just peak vs. career.
   36. Morty Causa Posted: August 21, 2008 at 12:07 AM (#2911151)
http://www.bostonbaseball.com/baseball_movies/

Alibi Ike (on why he was late for spring training: "My calendar was wrong") and Bang the Drum Slowly deserve some recognition. The Stratton Story has James Stewart. He alone makes anything worth considering seriously.
   37. Greg Pope Posted: August 21, 2008 at 12:11 AM (#2911153)
This is a tough call. Madsen's a little beefy, but it looks good on her, while Sarandon looks great, but she's not particularly sexy, oddly enough.

Not tough for me. I've never found Sarandon attractive at all. I agree with robinred in that it actually takes the movie down a notch with her in it. I find it hard to believe that all of the young minor leaguers want to sleep with her.
   38. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 21, 2008 at 12:28 AM (#2911161)
Nobody's mentioned "The Natural" yet?
It might not be the best baseball movie, but it's got the best baseball movie moment.
   39. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 21, 2008 at 12:40 AM (#2911171)
Not tough for me. I've never found Sarandon attractive at all. I agree with robinred in that it actually takes the movie down a notch with her in it. I find it hard to believe that all of the young minor leaguers want to sleep with her.

But those Willie McGee eyes of hers are the essence of baseball.

There's always William Bendix as Babe Ruth, hitting his 60th home run of the 1927 season -- repeat, 1927, during Prohibition -- at Yankee Stadium complete with a huge beer advertising sign in the outfield.

Wait a minute. In a movie where Babe Ruth is suspended by the commissioner for leaving in the middle of a game to rush an injured puppy to the puppy hospital, and in which Babe Ruth dies by sacrificing his own life for untested medical research that will help future generations, it's the anachronistic billboard that caught your attention?

Field of Dreams... the James Earl Jones monologue about base...ball marking the time is an all-time classic.

I dunno, there's something icky about a guy with black skin rhapsodizing about how 1910s baseball "reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again."
   40. scareduck Posted: August 21, 2008 at 02:58 AM (#2911199)
I like Sarandon OK as an actress but do not find her at all attractive

To me this is her best film credit, period. And her sexiest moment on screen, ever.
   41. scareduck Posted: August 21, 2008 at 03:01 AM (#2911200)
Anyone ever notice his only plate appearance with the ghosts was a sac fly? Even with the ghosts, he never got an official at bat.

I remember it as a scoring groundout, but it's been a while.
   42. Richard Posted: August 21, 2008 at 03:20 AM (#2911201)
I remember it as a scoring groundout, but it's been a while.

It's definitely a sacrifice fly. Seeing it for the 1st time as an English kid not knowing the rules of baseball well, I did not understand why everyone was so pleased with Graham when he was caught in the outfield...
   43. Pastor Toastman (PH) Posted: August 21, 2008 at 03:22 AM (#2911202)
I remember it as a scoring groundout, but it's been a while.

It was a sac fly. Though after the Adam Greenberg incident, I thought it would've been something if Archie Graham came to the plate, winked at the pitcher and was promptly Ray Chapman'd, with nobody with medical experience around for miles. That would've taught everybody the same lesson in a different way.
   44. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: August 21, 2008 at 03:28 AM (#2911205)
It was a sac fly. Though after the Adam Greenberg incident, I thought it would've been something if Archie Graham came to the plate, winked at the pitcher and was promptly Ray Chapman'd, with nobody with medical experience around for miles. That would've taught everybody the same lesson in a different way.

The scene with the choking little-girl would have been kind of a bummer.

Your version of the film seems much darker. More of a Tim Burton-type baseball film.
   45. Baseballing powerhouse Crispix Attacks Posted: August 21, 2008 at 03:29 AM (#2911206)
I think one of the ideas in the movie was that Annie had not just sexual qualities but a sort of maternal quality to the young players. And she was getting sort of worried that she might end up being actually old enough to be their mother without ever settling down.
   46. Moscow Hiding In The Shadows Posted: August 21, 2008 at 05:34 AM (#2911214)
I think one of the ideas in the movie was that Annie had not just sexual qualities but a sort of maternal quality to the young players. And she was getting sort of worried that she might end up being actually old enough to be their mother without ever settling down.

Well, being as how Sarandon was 42 at the time, for the majority of them she was old enough to be their mother.

Not that those motherfukkkers would necessarily care. But thank God they didn't try to make Bull Durham II, III and IV.

I still say it's a sad truth that there's never been a truly great baseball movie, at least one on the level of Raging Bull and about half a dozen other boxing movies. Closest to it was Death on the Diamond, which is sort of like JFK, only with a happy ending.

And for a much better Tim Robbins movie---an infinitely better Tim Robbins movie---try Robert Altman's Short Cuts.
   47. vortex of dissipation Posted: August 21, 2008 at 07:17 AM (#2911221)
And for a much better Tim Robbins movie---an infinitely better Tim Robbins movie---try Robert Altman's Short Cuts.


Unless, of course, you'd feel traumatized by seeing Huey Lewis's penis.
   48. kevin Posted: August 21, 2008 at 07:33 AM (#2911222)
Yeah but Julianne Moore does a full frontal so there's that to consider.
   49. Cold Prosimian Posted: August 21, 2008 at 07:48 AM (#2911224)
Short Cuts was a great movie. "The Player" was also good. I think the first movie I ever saw Susan S. in was Bull Durham, and I thoguht" ho hum" but after watching The Rocky Horror Picture Show I find it hard to imagine someone not finding her hot. That was a much better peak than Madsen.

And as a left-wing, weed-smokin', gay-marriage-allowin', non-interventionist, Timbit-eatin' Canadian, Tim Robbins's politics are just fine by me.
   50. Moscow Hiding In The Shadows Posted: August 21, 2008 at 07:50 AM (#2911225)
There are a hundred great scenes in Short Cuts, but the best has got to be when Peter Gallagher chainsaws every piece of furniture in his ex-wife (Frances McDormand)'s house, but pauses in midstream to let a door to door salesman shampoo the carpet!
   51. Tropical Storm Davis, aka Quilvio "Ebola" Veras Posted: August 21, 2008 at 08:04 AM (#2911231)
"Hudsucker Proxy" was a good movie.
   52. Lassus Posted: August 21, 2008 at 08:08 AM (#2911232)
I still say it's a sad truth that there's never been a truly great baseball movie...

"Well, that's a very rare 'get-off-my-lawn' moment from Andy! Baseball, I tell ya, who can figure out this game?"
   53. Repoz Posted: August 21, 2008 at 08:09 AM (#2911233)
Huey Lewis's penis

Wasn't that a throw-in in the Prince Albert Pujols trade?
   54. Greg Pope Posted: August 21, 2008 at 08:19 AM (#2911235)
I think the first movie I ever saw Susan S. in was Bull Durham, and I thoguht" ho hum" but after watching The Rocky Horror Picture Show I find it hard to imagine someone not finding her hot.

Bull Durham was the first move I saw saw Susan Sarandon in, as well. So if her attractiveness factor is based on what she looked like when she was younger then I missed out on that. I may never have seen her in anything earlier than that.

[Checks IMDB]... Yeah, I've never seen any of her movies from before Bull Durham. So if she pulled a Dale Murphy then I may be missing something.
   55. Lassus Posted: August 21, 2008 at 08:33 AM (#2911241)
...but after watching The Rocky Horror Picture Show I find it hard to imagine someone not finding her hot.

Agree
   56. Moscow Hiding In The Shadows Posted: August 21, 2008 at 08:54 AM (#2911251)
I still say it's a sad truth that there's never been a truly great baseball movie...

"Well, that's a very rare 'get-off-my-lawn' moment from Andy! Baseball, I tell ya, who can figure out this game?"


Which is exactly the problem with baseball movies. 99% of them are pitched along the lines of "you don't have to be a baseball fan to like -----." And it shows.

Seriously, I've never been quite able to figure out why there are so many first rate, and realistic, boxing movies, and not one similar baseball movie, with the semi-exceptions of Eight Men Out and to a lesser extent, Cobb. Maybe it's just because the corruption in boxing is so generally known and accepted as a given, whereas baseball fans still would rather have their fantasies.

What would be a great baseball movie, if you could get it past the lawyers, would be one based on the whole steroid scandal. NOT, I hasten to add, from any superimposed and easy moral perspective, but from the point of view of the very real pressures felt by ballplayers to get a competitive edge. And how they deal with it in radically different ways, just as Major Leaguers do.

If you gave honest and non-judgmental portrayals of a mix of these varied paths that players choose, you probably wouldn't make for a blockbuster hit (duh), but OTOH you might finally produce a great baseball movie. Maybe even one as good as Raging Bull.

Like I said, you'd have to get it past the lawyers, and so you'd obviously have to change all the names, but if you had a small studio with some guts, you could make a hell of a good movie.
   57. Benji Gil Gamesh Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:01 AM (#2911254)
It might not be the best baseball movie, but it's got the best baseball movie moment.

I'm not even sure that's the best Hobbs-hitting-the-ball moment in that movie. You pretty much know he's going to homer at that point. His first at-bat in a game, after Pop pulls Bump, you don't know quite what to expect -- or if you're guessing, you're guessing mammoth homer. So when he literally knocks the cover off the ball, I think that's better.

And I recall Susan Sarandon looking pretty good in The Witches of Eastwick, though I can't say I was paying much attention to her when Pfeiffer was onscreen.
   58. Benji Gil Gamesh Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:04 AM (#2911257)
What would be a great baseball movie, if you could get it past the lawyers, would be one based on the whole steroid scandal. NOT, I hasten to add, from any superimposed and easy moral perspective, but from the point of view of the very real pressures felt by ballplayers to get a competitive edge. And how they deal with it in radically different ways, just as Major Leaguers do.

Substitute "football" for "baseball" and I agree. I think that would actually be a huge public service in that case.
   59. Lassus Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:08 AM (#2911258)
Well, Andy, the real point of that post was my attempt at calling you out Steiner-style. ;-) May have failed at my impression.
   60. Moscow Hiding In The Shadows Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:11 AM (#2911262)
Substitute "football" for "baseball" and I agree. I think that would actually be a huge public service in that case.

It might be, but it'd be a completely different movie, and since there's no particular historical event in football that people associate with steroids, it would also lack the dramatic context of a movie set around the two great recent home run chases.

Of course if all you wanted was a public health promo, then I guess you would be better off focusing on football. But that wasn't what I had in mind.
   61. Moscow Hiding In The Shadows Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:15 AM (#2911265)
Well, Andy, the real point of that post was my attempt at calling you out Steiner-style. ;-) May have failed at my impression.

That's OK, Lassus, we're all allowed once in a while to respond to points that have never been made. ;-)
   62. Benji Gil Gamesh Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:23 AM (#2911270)
It might be, but it'd be a completely different movie, and since there's no particular historical event in football that people associate with steroids, it would also lack the dramatic context of a movie set around the two great recent home run chases.

The lack of a specific dramatic context like that -- focusing on the everyday reality of steroids, not the anomaly -- would arguably make for a much more powerful movie, though probably not as box-office friendly.
   63. Lassus Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:25 AM (#2911273)
That's OK, Lassus, we're all allowed once in a while to respond to points that have never been made. ;-)

Absolutely. Now tell us about how there are no good 9-ball movies either because there are no good pool halls anymore.

ahem
   64. Cris E Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:27 AM (#2911277)
I think what allows so many boxing movies to succeed is that very few people have ever boxed or know much about being in the ring, so we all share the same boxing experience. And since that boxing experience is largely what we saw on Wide World of Sports or Friday Night Fights it's something that movie makers can recreate. Also, it's not a team sport so you don't have to be concerned with the whole issue of team dynamics. With that as a base, a director can focus on the movie plot without nearly as much worry about the sport itself, or in-game banter, or the locker room or a bunch of other things that many viewers might identify as false.

Either that or boxing is more lyrical, thoughtful and artistic than baseball (or any other sport.)
   65. kevin Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:28 AM (#2911278)
but from the point of view of the very real pressures felt by ballplayers to get a competitive edge. And how they deal with it in radically different ways, just as Major Leaguers do.


And bonds could be a Gordon Gekko character.
   66. Benji Gil Gamesh Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:32 AM (#2911281)
Pretty much every boxer's life/long-term health is in danger every match. So there's just automatically a heightened drama associated with fighters that actors and directors can exploit. It's more or less the same reason there are a lot of good war movies.
   67. Moscow Hiding In The Shadows Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:33 AM (#2911282)
It might be, but it'd be a completely different movie, and since there's no particular historical event in football that people associate with steroids, it would also lack the dramatic context of a movie set around the two great recent home run chases.

The lack of a specific dramatic context like that -- focusing on the everyday reality of steroids, not the anomaly -- would arguably make for a much more powerful movie, though probably not as box-office friendly.


The truth is that if a baseball movie about steroids took a non-judgmental view about the peer pressures involved---if, for example, it depicted "Barry Bonds" or "Mark McGwire" in a multi-dimensional manner rather than as cartoon figures, it probably wouldn't be much of a hit at the multiplexes, either.

As for a football movie, I'm sure that you're right, that you could also make a very good one based on the realities of big time football from the NFL down to the Texas high schools. I only offered the baseball version because we were talking about baseball movies on this thread. I'm not for a minute arguing against a similar film treatment of the steroid-related peer pressures of football.
   68. kevin Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:34 AM (#2911286)
I think the appeal of boxing as a dramatic subject is the elemental nature of it, the "either I do this or I'm on the street with a cup in my hand" aspect. The protagonist is always compelled into a confrontation with brutality, corruption, his own debasement and possibly death because he has no choice. And how he deals with that situation is loaded with dramatic potential.

That's not true of the other sports. The viewer can always ask himor herself "Why does he continue to put up with that crap? Why doesn't he just go back to Iowa and farm?" or something like that.
   69. Moscow Hiding In The Shadows Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:36 AM (#2911290)
Absolutely. Now tell us about how there are no good 9-ball movies either because there are no good pool halls anymore.

Well, there's never been a really great pool movie, either, not even when there were pool rooms of every street corner of Manhattan. Not even The Hustler. So there. (ahem)
   70. kevin Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:51 AM (#2911302)
Not The Color of Money either, Andy?

Grady Seasons will kick your ass for saying that.
   71. kevin Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:52 AM (#2911305)
And really, even though it's about bowling, Kingpin was really a poolhall movie.
   72. robinred Posted: August 21, 2008 at 09:53 AM (#2911308)
I thought The Hustler was better than The Color of Money. Neither was great, but both were pretty good. But then I have never been a Cruise fan.
   73. Moscow Hiding In The Shadows Posted: August 21, 2008 at 10:01 AM (#2911321)
Not The Color of Money either, Andy?

Grady Seasons will kick your ass for saying that.


I liked that one a lot better than The Hustler, but in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king. And other than Mary Elizabeth Mastrantonio's looks, the only thing about The Color of Money worth remembering was that great "Grady Seasons" line about Tom Cruise's nightmare. And BTW the real "Grady Seasons" (Keith McCready, who played him in the movie) is one of the top 10 real life characters in sports history, not to mention being one of the all time great money players.

The real problem I have with both of those movies is admittedly an "elitist" one. I cringe every time I see either Cruise or Newman try to impersonate a pool player, since both of them can barely pick up a stick. It's like watching William Bendix play Babe Ruth. Jackie Gleason, OTOH, is a pleasure to watch in The Hustler, and he and George C. Scott are all that rescue that movie from the dumpster.

EDIT: Never saw (or even heard of) Kingpin, but I'll check it out. Hope springs eternal.
   74. Scott Lange Posted: August 21, 2008 at 10:06 AM (#2911330)
I dunno, there's something icky about a guy with black skin rhapsodizing about how 1910s baseball "reminds us of all that once was good, and it could be again."


The speech doesn't say anything about 1910's baseball; in fact, its specifically about the timelessness of baseball.

But then again, I'm the greatest Field of Dreams homer of all time, so I may be biased.
   75. OsunaSakata Posted: August 21, 2008 at 10:22 AM (#2911350)
I thought North Dallas Forty was a pretty good movie about the price of playing football.
   76. kevin Posted: August 21, 2008 at 10:22 AM (#2911351)
Ya gotta see Kingpin, andy. I'm just going to leave it at that without an intro but you just gotta see it.
   77. Benji Gil Gamesh Posted: August 21, 2008 at 10:28 AM (#2911362)
But then again, I'm the greatest Field of Dreams homer of all time, so I may be biased.

I saw that movie in college with my girlfriend. The credits rolled and I just sat there transfixed going "Wow."

That said, to really dig FoD you have to be okay with at least temporarily taking a gauzy view of baseball-as-idyllic, as well as the magical realism stuff. (And dealing with the historical inaccuracies.) So I can see why it's not for everyone.
   78. Lassus Posted: August 21, 2008 at 10:43 AM (#2911391)
I haven't seen this rather recent indie one, Andy (and meant to), and even if it's awful, it still might be great, considering the lead.

www.turntheriver.com
   79. Moscow Hiding In The Shadows Posted: August 21, 2008 at 11:53 AM (#2911473)
Thanks, Lassus. That movie's had a bit of ink in the pool mags, and I'm going to be looking out for it. The problem with nearly all pool movies is that they either never get released or they get killed after a week in New York or LA. And then Netflix doesn't pick up the DVD.

I see it opened in New York in May, but unfortunately I haven't heard a peep out of it since. The trailer makes it look like it could either be the best pool movie ever made, or the worst. Tough to tell in two minutes worth of clips.
   80. Barca Posted: August 21, 2008 at 12:25 PM (#2911525)
"But Bull Durham was about the choice Annie had to make "

There was a girl in the movie?
   81. El Hombre 2 MVPs (Le Samourai) Posted: August 21, 2008 at 12:46 PM (#2911539)
Confession time: I've never seen Bull Durham, Field of Dreams, The Natural, 61*, Ken Burns' Baseball, Eight Men Out, and probably plenty of other highly regarded baseball movies I can't remember.
   82. Traderdave Posted: August 21, 2008 at 12:57 PM (#2911551)
Watch the first & last of that list. The others are middling to forgettable to downright dreck.

And Netflix doesn't have Long Gone. Dang.
   83. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: August 21, 2008 at 01:07 PM (#2911558)
HOF: I think it's awesome that Jeff Idelson is so deliberately repairing the mistakes of the past. He is absolutely the best person for that job.

Baseball movies: "Field of Dreams" is the best in my book. "A League Of Their Own" is very good, I think, and often underrated in discussions on baseball movies. "Long Gone" is also generally underrated, and I was glad to see it mentioned here.

Bull Durham: I think the point of the movie is the intersection of the life paths of Annie and Crash. Both characters are heading toward a crossroads in their lives and meet at exactly the right time, like pitched ball and swinging bat, colliding right on the sweet spot. It's not about one or the other, but the two together. Great movie.

Billiard movies: I liked "Poolhall Junkies." The acting is a little raw at times, but I think that works well in that particular film. Chazz Palminteri, Rick Schroder, Rod Steiger and Christopher Walken are all supremely fun to watch in it.

Grady Seasons: the best Grady in the history of sports. Definitely better than Grady Little. Ten times better than Grady Sizemore, who is wildly overrated and almost certainly no better than, say, a Jacoby Ellsbury, somebody like that. Grady Seasons rules.

(Sorry I was late. This is a great thread, though.)
   84. Moscow Hiding In The Shadows Posted: August 21, 2008 at 01:28 PM (#2911580)
Grady Seasons: the best Grady in the history of sports. Definitely better than Grady Little. Ten times better than Grady Sizemore, who is wildly overrated and almost certainly no better than, say, a Jacoby Ellsbury, somebody like that. Grady Seasons rules.

Here's a more recent version of Grady. About 96,360 pints of beer more recent, to be exact. He would've been much better than Mizerak in that Miller Lite commercial, but I can't imagine the Kiefer ever endorsing one of those girly beers.
   85. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: August 21, 2008 at 01:32 PM (#2911591)
Also, forgot to add:

Boxing movies: boxing makes for a perfect forum for film because you can dictate the length of a fight and the sport has regularly scheduled natural dialogue between characters (in corners, between rounds). The only other sport I can think of that has routine scheduled verbal interaction as part of the normal course of action on the playing surface is football, between downs. Baseball has mound conferences, but you can't write a movie in which there is a mound visit after every batter.
   86. Esteban Rivera Posted: August 21, 2008 at 01:36 PM (#2911597)
I've never really gotten all the hype about Bull Durham. I saw it and thought it was a good movie, but have never understood the hype as the greatest baseball movie ever. Then again, I think that is due to seeing the movie when I was still in high school. The central theme of the movie, being at a crossroads in your life and having to make a choice, wasn't something I could relate with at that time. Maybe if I see it again I'll understand and appreciate it better.

I have three favorite baseball movies, all for different reasosn:

Field of Dreams. I saw that movie when I was 10, when I was not cynical about the game or its players. I still had that sense of wonder and fantasy about the game, so I could definitely buy everything presented in it. Still enjoy watching it to this day.

Major League. In my opinion, the best baseball comedy made. It really nailed the team dynamic and interaction. Funny as heck too.

The Sandlot. I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet. Simply what baseball is in its purest form.

Oh, and I have to mention the best baseball scene in a movie not about baseball, the last act in Naked Gun. Thank god for Enrico Pallazo.
   87. Chase Utley, America's Favorite Robot (Joey Belle) Posted: August 21, 2008 at 01:59 PM (#2911632)
Oh, and I have to mention the best baseball scene in a movie not about baseball, the last act in Naked Gun. Thank god for Enrico Pallazo.


That scene is absolutely essential. Thank God for the automaton Reggie Jackson as well.
   88. Cooperstown Schtick Posted: August 21, 2008 at 02:10 PM (#2911651)
Here's a more recent version of Grady. About 96,360 pints of beer more recent, to be exact.

No kidding. He looks like the guy who ate Grady Seasons.
   89. The Jerry Royster Experience Posted: August 21, 2008 at 02:15 PM (#2911657)
I've always been pretty "meh" about Bull Durham, but I've never really liked any of the three leads (although Robert Wuhl did a nice job). Watching Susan Sarandon or Kevin Costner attempt to act is fingernails-on-a-blackboard time for me.

There aren't really any "good" baseball movies, but I've always been partial to Major League.
   90. kevin Posted: August 21, 2008 at 02:28 PM (#2911682)
Oh yeah? Well, I'm in Bull Durham.

Good luck seeing me though. I'm an extra in the crowd scenes. They gave us 25 bucks. For a grad student, that was a lot of extra dough.

Take carful not of the shadows in the park sequences. It was filmed in October and you can sort of tell it's not summertime by that.
   91. mr. man Posted: August 21, 2008 at 02:29 PM (#2911687)
A terrific steroids in baseball movie could be made about ken caminiti...maybe not for another 5-10 years tho.
   92. kevin Posted: August 21, 2008 at 02:45 PM (#2911722)
Maybe the real Caminiti could make a cameo...oh, wait.
   93. Lassus Posted: August 21, 2008 at 02:50 PM (#2911737)
I'm going to come out right now and say I really really liked The Natural as a movie, and don't even start with the Malumud difference and the age of Redford and everything else. I've heard it all. I saw it when I was young, I loved the look of it and the mood and all the stupid crap that happened.

I found Field of Dreams kind of forgettable, honestly.

I really liked Bull Durham, too, but the part everyone quotes and loves, that stupid-ass monologue by Costner to Annie was painful to listen to.
   94. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: August 21, 2008 at 03:05 PM (#2911774)
I've never found Sarandon attractive at all.

You should see The Hunger.
   95. Lassus Posted: August 21, 2008 at 03:11 PM (#2911785)
As long as we were talking about pool films, and other activities of dark places, I would also recommend the gambling film "The Cincinnati Kid".
   96. The Polish Sausage Racer Posted: August 21, 2008 at 03:25 PM (#2911821)
I've always had the hots for Sarandon, from Rocky Horror to the present day. Bull Durham is no exception (though she's probably hottest in The Hunger).
   97. Esteban Rivera Posted: August 21, 2008 at 03:25 PM (#2911820)
As long as we were talking about pool films, and other activities of dark places, I would also recommend the gambling film "The Cincinnati Kid".


They actually showed this movie late last night on TMC. Only caught the first 20 minutes or so before turning in but I liked what I saw. And, any movie with Steve McQueen, Edward G. Robinson and Ann-Margret in it can't possibly be bad.
   98. maharishi mahesh yogi berra (phredbird) Posted: August 21, 2008 at 04:01 PM (#2911881)
agree on too much hype for bull durham. over art-directed, over-acted. kevin costner is the worst actor in movie history. the only good thing about that movie was sarandon.

can't say i've ever been satisfied by any baseball movie, really. they all get too sentimental. its a brutal game when you get down to it.
   99. Dayn Perry Posted: August 21, 2008 at 04:42 PM (#2911996)
And for a much better Tim Robbins movie---an infinitely better Tim Robbins movie---try Robert Altman's Short Cuts.

I was actually disappointed by Short Cuts. That's probably because I'm a huge Raymond Carver fan, but nonetheless ... I though the adaptation of "So Much Water Close to Home" lost the darkness and foreboding that was such a big part of the short story. Also, Lyle Lovett and Andie MacDowell completely ruined "A Small, Good Thing." I'll never understand why directors employ actors who can't manage anything better than a rote line-reading. Mostly, the whole thing lost the minimalism that was so central to Carver's stories.

On another level, movies with intertwined vignettes always strike me as contrived, but YMMV.

Anyhow, if you're not a Carver loyalist, then the movie probably is pretty enjoyable. And the chainsaw thing was great.

Agreed on The Player--tremendous film.
   100. Edmundo, survivor of 7 right-sourcings Posted: August 21, 2008 at 05:04 PM (#2912029)
Watching Susan Sarandon or Kevin Costner attempt to act is fingernails-on-a-blackboard time for me.
I can take or leave Sarandon's acting. I'll go with mostly hot. I think she had the right level of hotness for a baseball Annie. Pam Anderson would not have worked in that role. :)

I strongly dislike Costner, except I liked him in Bull Durham, thought he was okay enough in Field of Dreams. I also liked him a lot in the western he did in the last few years with Robert Duvall and Annette Bening. It might be that Duvall carried him -- I just love Duvall in these crusty, don't-f-with-him, old guy roles he's been doing.
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