Players who look like investment bankers are the new market inefficiency.

I think this article is full of it.

Now, which one of the BTF stalwarts want to tell me I'm either racist or ignorant and, ergo, can't perceive the pervasive racism of others. Including the Red Sox front office.

C'mon people. That's how these threads work. Who's up for it?

I don't get this obsession with counting the ethnicities on a team's MLB roster. I think this article says more about the writer than the Red Sox.

Plus they got rid of Manny for Jason Bay, who isn't just white, but Canadian.

(Or he was when they got him anyway.)

Article writer is a dumbass.

That's how these threads work.

No, no, the Red Sox FO are on the side of light and goodness and hence cannot be designated pinatas. If it was the Reds or Nats, maybe.

The Red Sox aren't white. They are gritty and scrappy. Skin color is just a by-product.

Percentage of Americans who are white: 66
Percentage of Red Sox who are white: 68

Why does Uncle Sam continue to birth babies in such racist proportions?

Why does Uncle Sam continue to birth babies in such racist proportions?

Seriously. If MLB were open to players of other nationalities then that statistic might be misleading, but as MLB only fields players from the lower 48 you so have a valid point.

####### Alaskans and their diverse ethnic makeup.

I figure Alaska and Hawaii throw everything to ####.

Geoff Baker approves of this article.

If the writer wants to go to all the trouble of counting players by race, you'd think he'd at least be consistent. First he says that there are no African Americans on the roster, but then he says that 68% of the players are white. I know what he means by that, but is he really trying to make some racial case out of the distinction between African Americans and black Latinos?

Of course the problem with all this is that a GM's only obligation is to assemble the best possible roster, and the only way he can be evaluated on that is by the team's record on a year-by-year basis. And on that score, what the hell more can anyone want out of the 21st century Red Sox? How many times do they have to knock the Angels out of the playoffs for Tobin to acknowledge that there's more to a GM's job than to be an affirmative action officer?

If someone wants to make this claim, that's fine, but he should point to specific areas where the Sox have made moves that at least provide a hint of racism. I can see two situations that kind of fit that bill;

J.D Drew - The length and amount of that contract came as a surprise to a lot of folks and pushed Wily Mo Pena out of a job (Trot was technically the incumbent but we all knew he wasn't coming back). Conversely, Drew is the type of player the Sox are known to covet.

Manny Ramirez - Obviously Manny's relationship with the Sox became pretty sour. I'm not getting into the whole "tanking" thing which I think is bunk but I do think it was obvious that Manny wanted out and I think it's equally obvious that the Sox wanted him out. I think you can easily point to reasons other than race (contract, reliability, attitude) that the Sox would have wanted him gone.

Percentage of baseball players who are non-American: 28%
Percentage of non-American baseball players who are white: Pretty low

This is also why the White Sox have so many Jewish players who grew up Brooklyn Dodger fans.

Tom Yawkey would be disgusted at the Red Sox being whiter than the average team

Suspect is hatless. Repeat: Hatless.

Now here's a pointless exercise we haven't engaged in before!

Non-American baseball players who are white:

- Canadians
- Italian Venezuelans
- Henricus van den Hurk
- Jorge Cantu looks pretty darn white and I think he comes from an aristocratic family.

J.D Drew - The length and amount of that contract came as a surprise to a lot of folks and pushed Wily Mo Pena out of a job

The same Wily Mo Pena that's playing in AAA right now? Also, J.D. Drew has been worth $33.7 million to Boston according to Fangraphs, while being paid $35 million so far, so it has been a good signing.

The reasons the Red Sox are so white are because their Latin American operation stank until recently and that they liked to draft college players until recently. Hence, their home-grown players come from white demographics.

The annoying thing is the real story of last night was Brett Anderson flashing how awesome he is going to be.

Non-American baseball players who are white:

- Canadians
- Italian Venezuelans
- Henricus van den Hurk
- Jorge Cantu looks pretty darn white and I think he comes from an aristocratic family.

Don't forget Grant Balfour and the Australians!

The same Wily Mo Pena that's playing in AAA right now?

No, the one that is no longer playing AAA after having been released by the Mets farm team.

@15 should have read:

Percentage of baseball players who are non-American: 28%
Percentage of non-American baseball players who are white: Jason Bay

When the Red Sox go international, they keep it lilly white baby.

I can't believe anyone would imply that Boston is not a utopia of racial harmony.

Daniel Bard, Dusty Brown, and Bates… and these three white guys have boosted that average to 68%. As I said back on May 12, “Every time someone goes down, it seems there’s a new white face to replace him.” Well, Mike Lowell went down and white guy Jeff Bailey replaced him, then Bailey hit the DL, and white guy Aaron Bates was there to step in.

Daniel Bard, Dusty Brown and Aaron Bates have all been drafted by the Red Sox out of college. Jeff Bailey was signed as a minor league free agent after being drafted out of high school by the Marlins

The annoying thing is the real story of last night was Brett Anderson flashing how awesome he is going to be.

If Haren weren't so awesome right now, I'd be really upset today

No, the one that is no longer playing AAA after having been released by the Mets farm team.

You know you suck if you are Latino and you still get released by the Mets.

If Haren weren't so awesome right now, I'd be really upset today

Haren is half-Mexican so at least you don't have to deal with the guilt of having too many white players.

My bigger issue is having to deal with the guilt of having too many crappy players.

My bigger issue is having to deal with the guilt of having too many crappy players.

Yes, I can understand this specific type of guilt you mention.

What happened with the Red Sox is a function of a lot of little things, some of which are random, some of which are perhaps worthy of critique, but the biggest factor is something the Red Sox are working very hard to fix.

Theo Epstein indefensibly took 3-4 years to put together working, fully-funded programs in Latin America, and has only been signing players to >100k bonuses there for a couple years. At the same time, his minor league instructors have had no success in turning raw athletes into major league hitters, and the typical age at signing in Latin America means that most signees are on the raw side. So, the best non-American Red Sox prospect is either Michael Almanzar (highly touted and bonused, but failing to hit in short season A-ball), Yamaico Navarro (a 20-year-old SS with moderate tools doing pretty good in the Carolina League), or Argenis Diaz (a still-raw, glove-only SS in AA).

The Sox also have drafted hardly any non-white Americans in the draft, but I don't know if there's anything to read into that, especially because their last two drafts have featured more non-white kids in the early rounds.

I expect the whiteness of these Sox is going to end up as a weird little blip on the team's history.

Ba-friggin-zing from 17th Pick.

Italian Venezuelans

Is Scutaro the only one of these or are their others in MLB?

Now, which one of the BTF stalwarts want to tell me I'm either racist or ignorant and, ergo, can't perceive the pervasive racism of others. Including the Red Sox front office.

C'mon people. That's how these threads work. Who's up for it?

The article is silly. Sorry you feel so oppressed here.

The Sox also have drafted hardly any non-white Americans in the draft, but I don't know if there's anything to read into that.

I very seriously doubt it. We have covered this ground many times before, regarding the demographics of American amateur baseball. If a team is not adding much in the way of Latin American talent, it is going to have a lot of white guys. Luckily for Red Sox fans, most of the white guys Epstein gets are pretty good.

How many times do they have to knock the Angels out of the playoffs for Tobin to acknowledge that there's more to a GM's job than to be an affirmative action officer?

Not sure what this has to do with anything--you could have just said "won the World Series" or something less-team specific.

So go #### yourself.

Andy scored a hit!

Not sure what this has to do with anything

Well, the quoted text from the article includes the following line:

it’s no coincidence the Arte Moreno owned Angels field the lowest percentage of white hitters

I assume that's why he made the Angels comment.

Is Scutaro the only one of these or are their others in MLB?

Francisco Cervelli, off the top off my head. European-Venezuelans, being for the most part solidly middle-class or higher, are probably underrepresented in the potential baseball talent pool.

There's also Vizquel, Mags... who don't have any such ascendancy (that I know of).

First of all, I think this whole discussion is silly. Any GM who isn't willing to field the best 25-man roster possible, regardless of racial considerations, is incompetent. Theo isn't incompetent.

I assume that's why he made the Angels comment.

A third party making a statement about one team that has little to do with the Red Sox beyond the comparison itself is silly, and not worth making a Halo-hating comment. If Arte Moreno or someone else in the organization had come out and disparaged the Sox for this perceived racial discrimination, then that would be fair game.

The Sox also have drafted hardly any non-white Americans in the draft, but I don't know if there's anything to read into that, especially because their last two drafts have featured more non-white kids in the early rounds.

isn't that a product more of drafting a high percentage of college players? (I don't know if that is still a tendency for the Red Sox, but my impression is that there are a higher percentage of white college players than black)

I agree with post 14 that you don't really judge by their makeup but by their actions, do they show a tendency to higher rate white players over non-white players(see the Astros for a supposed organizational philosophy that does exactly that) Have they avoided pursuing non-white free agents? When Big Papi is arguably the face of the franchise it's really tough to accuse them of being racially motivated. (yes Youklis, Veritek, and Wakefield all get a seat at the table as being face of the franchise)

A third party making a statement about one team that has little to do with the Red Sox beyond the comparison itself is silly, and not worth making a Halo-hating comment.

And calling Yankee fan Andy's remarks "Halo-hating" is ridiculous, while also sounding moronic to boot.

And calling Yankee fan Andy's remarks "Halo-hating" is ridiculous, while also sounding moronic to boot.

Moronic is harsh, but definitely thin-skinned. Sports are our happy place, right? Right?

Moronic is harsh

That's just a product of my destesting of the use of the phrase "hating" in that context.

Halo-hating?

Had no idea Cervelli was Venezualen. Thanks.

And calling Yankee fan Andy's remarks "Halo-hating" is ridiculous, while also sounding moronic to boot.

I don't post here all the time, so forgive me if I'm not immediately familiar with everyone's allegiances if it's not obvious or evident from their handle.

That's just a product of my destesting of the use of the phrase "hating" in that context.

I fail to see how use of the phrase "hating," as I used it, is moronic. We all have our linguistic preferences, I suppose, and English is, if nothing else, rightly acclaimed for its adaptability. Part of the reason I used the phrase was to take advantage of the alliterative possibilities.

In any case, unless you're willing to let bygones by bygones, go #### yourself too.

The Sox drafting and operations have something to do with the lack of blacks, but many blacks still don't want to play for the Red Sox or live in Boston because of the long history of poor treatment of blacks.

Besides, the Sox are very affirmative action when it comes to Greek Canadians and Romanian Jews.

BTW, Sarah Palin resigned from office because she's carrying my love child.

The Sox drafting and operations have something to do with the lack of blacks, but many blacks still don't want to play for the Red Sox or live in Boston because of the long history of poor treatment of blacks.

This is something I've also heard. Two years back, Gary Matthews Jr. remarked that Fenway was the one stadium where he occasionally still hears people drop the N-word in their heckling.

That's a separate discussion though--this thread is about the management of the Sox, not their fans.

Christ. You come looking for some good old-fashioned John Smoltz bashing and a race war between Angelinos and the Bluebloods of the upper northeast breaks out. Can't we all get along? At least enough to agree that John Smoltz is the anti-christ and must die?

Sports are our happy place, right? Right?

I support Toronto franchises, which means I support the Leafs (suck), the Raptors (suck, and likely to lose their best player next season, leading to a deeper tier of suck), and the Jays (injured, possibly losing their best player, which will lead to the onset of suck).

Sports is definitely not my happy place.

In any case, unless you're willing to let bygones by bygones, go #### yourself too.

I got no bygones with you Halo.

Can't we all get along? At least enough to agree that John Smoltz is the anti-christ and must die?

I'm prepared to agree with this, but we need to go into intense discussions over how he should die.

I got no bygones with you Halo.

Fair enough. Matter dropped.

Christ. You come looking for some good old-fashioned John Smoltz bashing and a race war between Angelinos and the Bluebloods of the upper northeast breaks out. Can't we all get along? At least enough to agree that John Smoltz is the anti-christ and must die?

Only if Matt Wieters gets to battle him in the ultimate showdown between good and evil.

I saw two of the most demonstrative flip-outs from pitchers who didn't get a strike call I've ever seen last night. Jair Jurrjens painted the outside corner at the knees (verified by ESPN's pitch box thing) and didn't get the call that would have been a strikeout in a big spot of Soto. I think he ended up walking him. But he was pissed (rightfully) and put his glove on his hip and gesticulated noticeably.

Smoltz thought he struck out Holliday on an pitch that was probably outside but also gets called a lot and really lost it, more so that Jurrjens. He definitely made use of his 42-year old veteran cred with the umpire there. Anybody under 40 wouldn't have gotten a strike called the rest of the night.

Can't we all get along? At least enough to agree that John Smoltz is the anti-christ and must die?

We can agree on how we feel about southern cooking. Smoltz, I'm going to wait and see his next few starts before I pass judgement. :-)

I am a fan of neck-stabbing, but I am open to alternative methods. He is, after all, the anti-christ. One might assume he would have to be killed multiple times. Certainly he's shown a distinct refusal to stay dead over the course of his career to date.

The annoying thing is the real story of last night was Brett Anderson flashing how awesome he is going to be.

Now there's a white guy who unveiled himself last night.

NESN radar had his fastball at 96-97 mph. Can that possibly be right? I haven't seen him throw that hard, nor had I heard of him throwing that hard.

Oh, and that 85 mph breaking pitch was just filthy last night.

Jair Jurrjens painted the outside corner at the knees (verified by ESPN's pitch box thing) and didn't get the call that would have been a strikeout in a big spot of Soto. I think he ended up walking him. But he was pissed (rightfully) and put his glove on his hip and gesticulated noticeably.

This one was great, especially because of the pitch that preceded it. Jurrjens painted the outside corner for what would have been strike three on the prior pitch, but the ump called it outside and Jurrjens gave him a noticible stink eye. The next pitch, Jurrjens painted the outside corner again, this time an inch or so closer to the plate, and once again didn't get the call. His body language after the second no-call was epic. I thought it was a pretty classic case of ump retribution for the glare on the previous pitch.

I am a fan of neck-stabbing, but I am open to alternative methods.

We know. It seems that neck-stabbing is your solution to everything.

He is, after all, the anti-christ. One might assume he would have to be killed multiple times. Certainly he's shown a distinct refusal to stay dead over the course of his career to date.

You could always give him the full Rasputin treatment - poisoned, shot, beaten, and drowned.

Damn racist Boston Fans...look how they treated Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce!

Of course the problem with all this is that a GM's only obligation is to assemble the best possible roster,

Is this true? Or is the GM at least partially responsible for assembling a roster that will draw maximum attendance?

Hey, halo hater hunter, I don't hate your halos. Trust me on this one. In fact, other than that silly "Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim" bit, I'd rank Moreno as one of the game's best owners.

But as to why I made the original comment, tribefan in #36 got it right: Tobin brought up Moreno's name in the first place. I only wish that the Yankees could figure out the Red Sox's October secret when it comes to the Angels.

I thought there were more Italo-Venezuelans than just Cervelli and Scutaro, but it seems not. Not a lot of minor-leaguers with Italian names here or here or here, either.

Reinaldo Olivari? Javier DiSalle? Emerson Landoni? Leonardo D'Amico?

Maybe they prefer soccer.

Damn racist Boston Fans...look how they treated Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce!

It's not as though turning off your racism for the purposes of sports fandom is unheard of.

I direct your attention to a large number of southern college football devotees.

BTW, Sarah Palin resigned from office because she's carrying my love child.

Mark Sanford posts to BTF. Who knew?

I support Toronto franchises, which means I support the Leafs (suck), the Raptors (suck, and likely to lose their best player next season, leading to a deeper tier of suck), and the Jays (injured, possibly losing their best player, which will lead to the onset of suck).

What about the Argonauts?

It's not all bad Ryan. You get to support Tim Horton's over Dunkin' Donuts. mmm, maple glazed and a double double.

What about the Argonauts?

Why do you know about the existence of the Argos? You must have lived in an area which got to experience the terribleness that was the CFL's US expansion.

It's not as though turning off your racism for the purposes of sports fandom is unheard of.

No, but the city, like many other places, has come a long way and a lot of the basis for this sort of thinking about Boston comes from the 1960s/70s. Two whole generations of New Englanders have grown up since then, and lots of the old "rules" just don't seem to apply anymore.

Who on the Red Sox current roster is not white? Ortiz, Lugo, Matsuzaka, Saito, Delcarmen, Ramirez, Okajima, Lowell. At one point, there was Javier Lopez and Gil Velazquez. The author says there have been 11 so far in 2009, but I must be missing somebody?

The concept that the there is some component of racism is ridiculous. Ortiz has been the face of the franchise now (or one of them) since late 2003. He didn't hit for crap for two months this year, and he received fan support like nobody else would. He is beloved in Red Sox Nation. You know who is probably the second most beloved (OK, third, after Schilling and his bloody sock)? Dave Roberts, who is forever treated as royalty for stealing that base in Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS. Race has got nothing to do with roster composition, or fan affection.

Black, white, latino, japanese, korean...if you helped us win the World Series in 2004 or 2007, you will be loved forever.

It's not all bad Ryan. You get to support Tim Horton's over Dunkin' Donuts. mmm, maple glazed and a double double.

I don't eat donuts, and I don't drink coffee, so I'm getting the short end of the stick again.

I don't eat donuts, and I don't drink coffee,

You ####### communist!

So, it's good to see that apparently the Red Sox are an institution shorn of all vestiges of racism. Their current paleness will just be a "blip" in their history, washing out against the backdrop of their wider historic openness to players of color and explicable solely in terms of some inexplicable drafting of some white guys.

It's good to live in a post-racist society.

You must have lived in an area which got to experience the terribleness that was the CFL's US expansion.

Had the Patriots followed through on their threat to move to St. Louis, New Englanders may well would have ended up with a CFL franchise. Hell, given the region's traditional insularity, maybe that franchise would have worked.

I lived in Boston for five years, and I would look for any excuse to hate it, but I didn't. The idea that it's a racist city is laughable nonsense. Rural Maine is a whole hell of a lot more racist...so is suburban North Jersey. There's a bit of the old time religion, probably, out in Revere and Everett and some of the other grimier inner 'burbs...but come on. It's one of the most tolerant and inclusive places on Earth, despite being a tad provincial for a big city.

Black, white, latino, japanese, korean...if you helped us win the World Series in 2004 or 2007, you will be loved forever.

What's the relationship with Damon now? I never held his departure for NY against him, but others sure seemed to.

Damn racist Boston Fans...look how they treated Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, and Paul Pierce!

It's not as though turning off your racism for the purposes of sports fandom is unheard of.

I don't travel much, so I can't make comparisons between Boston and anywhere else but Providence, or NH. I'd like to think that the racial climate is getting better as the population gets younger, but I can't say for sure.

Here's an anecdote: Back in the 70's, they tried to establish a pro lacrosse league. Boston had an entry. I took in a game. It was a violent brand of lacrosse. Lots of collisions, lots of hacking with the crosses, lots of fighting.

One of the players on the opposing team was black. The rest of the players were white. Whenever the black guy had the ball, the noise level of the crowd rose in what I interpreted was anticipation of him getting hit. It wasn't my imagination, honest!

edit..back to the issue...Eh. Boston fans will boo anyone who fails, except the icons, like Bird, Bourque, Papi, Russell. Yaz got booed.

Why do you know about the existence of the Argos?

I am an omnivore when it comes to sports. I watched some minor league MMA out of Ohio the other nite.

What's the relationship with Damon now? I never held his departure for NY against him, but others sure seemed to.

I have a feeling the Yankee thing will be forgotten somewhat when he leaves the Yankees. He had too big of a role in the '04 team.

So, it's good to see that apparently the Red Sox are an institution shorn of all vestiges of racism.

Are you joking around or trolling?

Who on the Red Sox current roster is not white? Ortiz, Lugo, Matsuzaka, Saito, Delcarmen, Ramirez, Okajima, Lowell. At one point, there was Javier Lopez and Gil Velazquez. The author says there have been 11 so far in 2009, but I must be missing somebody?

Ellsbury.

To JC, sports clubs exist in a weird place in the world, racially. I don't see much evidence that professional athletes deal with workplace discrimination - do you know of evidence of such? There's a ton of evidence in a lot of fields, and I'm sure the Boston Red Sox as an organization are not free of its effects, but in terms of putting together a playing roster, I don't see much reason to suspect any management group of discrimination.

More anecdotes: Dee Brown was stopped in affluent Wellesley because he "fit the description" of a bank robber. I suspect the description was "black". I believe Brown was driving a BMW at the time, and I doubt many bank robbers drive Beamers to "work".

On the other hand, Mo Vaughn rolled his SUV over well past midnight after an evening at a strip club, miles from home, and miles off course from the quickest route home. I'm pretty sure the State Police responded to the accident, and there were no citations issued. The likelihood of Vaughn not having been guilty of SOMETHING is remote, but he got a pass that night.

Eh.

I believe Brown was driving a BMW at the time, and I doubt many bank robbers drive Beamers to "work".

Are you sure about that? The only way that I'm getting a BMW is if I rob a bank.

So, it's good to see that apparently the Red Sox are an institution shorn of all vestiges of racism. Their current paleness will just be a "blip" in their history, washing out against the backdrop of their wider historic openness to players of color and explicable solely in terms of some inexplicable drafting of some white guys.

Stupid Henry/Werner/Lucchino and their unwillingness to sign Willie Mays. Damn them!

One of the players on the opposing team was black. The rest of the players were white.

This is sort of amusing to me. I live in Baltimore, which is one of the major centers of high school and college lacrosse. The Baltimore area (Baltimore proper mostly, but also some of its suburbs) has a fairly large black community. From what I can tell, there is essentially zero overlap between this community and the people who play lacrosse or whose kids play lacrosse.

Everywhere else I've ever heard of where high school lacrosse exists - be it New England, upstate NY, the NYC metro area, parts of Ohio/Michigan - it's the sport that only the rich [white] kids play.

More anecdotes: Dee Brown was stopped in affluent Wellesley because he "fit the description" of a bank robber.

Hmmm...that is interesting. Not that the cop who did it necessarily reflects the town's thinking about such matters, but I had thought of Wellesley as the sort of town where residents would be horrified at such a thing happening there (e.g. Brookline) versus the kind of town that might be more, um, sympathetic to unwritten rules about who belonged where.

for all this talk about how racist the sox are, it took 70 comments to mention that the sox even have any asians, let alone the most asians in all the majors.

but asians aren't people, they're just silent, invisible nobodies that don't make a peep and shouldn't be considered.

except when there's too many of them graduating from PhD, MD, and JD programs. then you need to discriminate against them and admit more white people.

except when there's too many of them graduating from PhD, MD, and JD programs. then you need to discriminate against them and admit more white people.

I'm not sure a agree with 100% of this sentiment. It is true, however, that affirmative action programs don't harm the number of admitted white students, but rather the number of admitted asian students, as they typically aren't deemed to be underrepresented minorities.

This does not, however, quite jive with the notion that asians are being given the shaft purely for the benefit of white folk.

but asians aren't people, they're just silent, invisible nobodies that don't make a peep and shouldn't be considered.

That's not true. They could keep the stats.

To JC, sports clubs exist in a weird place in the world, racially. I don't see much evidence that professional athletes deal with workplace discrimination - do you know of evidence of such? There's a ton of evidence in a lot of fields, and I'm sure the Boston Red Sox as an organization are not free of its effects, but in terms of putting together a playing roster, I don't see much reason to suspect any management group of discrimination.

Matt:

Workplace discrimination is one thing, for sure, and having no evidence of the Red Sox workplace in general, I have no evidence of workplace discrimination, unless one defines their workplace as "Boston" or "within the confines of Fenway Park," in which case as a New Englander much of my life I was aware of the different treatment of Boston's black players. That aside, however, b/c the environment may have changed, presumably one of the points E-X and others, including you, have made, is to focus our attention on issues beyond overt "workplace discrimination" and towards institutional factors that may bear and evince the vestiges of racism.

So, you tell me: Does Boston have a history, or at least a perceived history, of "different" treatment of non-white athletes? Does the current whiteish roster of Red Sox players appear as a "blip" compared to that history, or in line with it (if there is one)? If it seems more continuous with that history, then can we comfortably claim there are no vestiges of racism that explain why (1) it took Theo three years to do what you wrote above, or (2) they draft more white players (or whatever precisely you wrote above)?

In all seriousness: I'm not presuming answers to these questions, I just thought it interesting that we talk about these questions all the time, either in greater abstraction or with specifics regarding people/institutions you probably dislike (Reagan, conservatives, etc), but in a case more at home to so many of us (our fav team!), the possibility that racism may be a factor seems to have been discounted pretty quickly. Too quickly. (And, I understand that this can be turned around on me. I'm a deeply flawed person. Sue me.)

A fine article that doesn't go far enough in exposing the disgusting racism that defines the character of every person who ever rooted for the Red Sox. Ever.

I live in Baltimore, which is one of the major centers of high school and college lacrosse. The Baltimore area (Baltimore proper mostly, but also some of its suburbs) has a fairly large black community. From what I can tell, there is essentially zero overlap between this community and the people who play lacrosse or whose kids play lacrosse.

Bunk Moreland played that game with a stick.


the NYC metro area - it's the sport that only the rich [white] kids play.

I heard a rumor years ago that Method Man was an All-State (All-City?) lacrosse player. I was never able to confirm it and never heard it again, so it's probably ########. Then again, it's so random, it must be true.

Ol' Bunk Moreland used to play the sport with the stick. He was All Metro in Baltimore, prep school boys used to pee themselves when they saw the ol' Bunk comin' at 'em.

do they show a tendency to higher rate white players over non-white players(see the Astros for a supposed organizational philosophy that does exactly that)

Well, that is a ridiculous and unsupported statement. You can start with the fact that only three of the Astros' starting eight position players are white (or Anglo, or whatever term you want to use). Two of the Astros' five starting pitchers are Anglo. I also don't think it holds up, looking at the last couple of Astros' drafts. And even going back in the previous decade, the Astros probably were the most prolific team at developing Venezuelan players.

Well, that is a ridulous and unsupported statement. You can start with the fact that only three of the Astros' starting eight position players are white (or Anglo, or whatever term you want to use). Two of the Astros' five starting pitchers are Anglo. I also don't think it holds up, looking at the last couple of Astros' drafts.

And that Cooper guy.

Workplace discrimination is one thing, for sure, and having no evidence of the Red Sox workplace in general, I have no evidence of workplace discrimination, unless one defines their workplace as "Boston" or "within the confines of Fenway Park," in which case as a New Englander much of my life I was aware of the different treatment of Boston's black players. That aside, however, b/c the environment may have changed, presumably one of the points E-X and others, including you, have made, is to focus our attention on issues beyond overt "workplace discrimination" and towards institutional factors that may bear and evince the vestiges of racism.

To be clear, by "workplace discimination" I meant hiring practices that, consciously or unconsciously, unfairly disfavor minorities. I meant, that is, the thing that this article was about, and the thing that you are referring to in your second paragraph when you talk about the history of segregation on the Red Sox roster.

My general understanding of the literature on hiring discrimination is that having various means to objectify workers cuts down on discrimination. The classic example is blind auditions for orchestra jobs, which almost immediately created gender balance in top orchestras that had never existed before. In baseball, statistics for teams and individuals have served this purpose. I know of little evidence of non-white ballplayers being passed over for playing jobs or being paid less money to do the same work. I can buy, based on my understanding of the literature, that baseball playing jobs are distributed basically equitably.

Baseball is weird. I should be clear that not discriminating in hiring a playing roster is not the same as being post-racial in all respects as an organization. The whiteness of front offices around baseball seems like it likely masks various problems that teams, including the Red Sox, ought to address. I don't think I'm claiming that the Boston Red Sox are good while conservatives are bad, I'm saying that I think the particular kind of discrimination alleged is not generally in evidence in baseball today, and I'd need more evidence before I bought on to the case.

So, you tell me: Does Boston have a history, or at least a perceived history, of "different" treatment of non-white athletes?

There's a history of it, sure, particularly with regards to baseball and the Red Sox. But you'll be able to say that until the end of time.

But there are counterexamples too, going as far back as Bill Russell even, and steadily more of them as time has progressed. I never heard of any adverse treatment of Dennis Johnson or Robert Parrish, though, yeah, it's easy to love guys on a team that wins like that.

There was the Jim Rice situation, which probably doesn't reflect well on Boston as a city. However, there are lots of factors at play there - neither Teddy Ballgame nor Yaz were immune to boo-birds either, and lots of aspects of late-period Rice were especially frustrating to watch for fans (the strikeouts, the double plays, the poor OF play) and probably would have attracted negative attention even if he were white.

As some other poster already said, David Ortiz might still be the face of the franchise in eyes of the fans. He went through a two month stretch where he was Godawful and the jeers were few and far between. Mo Vaughn didn't spend his decline years in Boston, so we'll never know what that would have been like, but he had no problems with Boston and the Sox fans.

This does not, however, quite jive with the notion that asians are being given the shaft purely for the benefit of white folk.

actually, you'd be surprised, esp in the graduate school levels (which is why i added PhD). you're probably right about the MD/JD side of things, but on the Masters/PhD front, there is a large derth of americans in higher level graduate programs which are instead being flooded by foreigners (europeans and asians), a good majority of whom take their american degree back to their native country.

that said, while the original article still bears some crediblity as they're citing the number of non-whites (as opposed to the number of blacks/latinos), it's really hard to label the red sox as outright racists when they have the most asian clubhouse in the majors.

and let's be honest here...the mlb, nba, and nfl are all minority dominated, contrary to the demographics of this country (including foreigners working here).

and not to gloss over things, there used to be a saying that you don't walk off the island. if the red sox are taking a bb/obp approach to constructing a lineup, and many latin players were taught to swing for the fences instead of trying to get on base, well you can see where i'm going with this.

on top of which, the sox made a shift to drafting more college graduates - we don't need to explain that one.

as for african americans in the mlb, that's a league-wide issue, not just the sox. if the numbers haven't changed, the league was approx 8% african american, which means 2 per 25 man roster. statistical variation tells you that you're gonna have some clubs with 3-5, and some clubs with 0-1.

That's not true. They could keep the stats.

damn you! you figured me out! *goes back to extrapolating pujols' stats for the rest of the year*

Everywhere else I've ever heard of where high school lacrosse exists - be it New England, upstate NY, the NYC metro area, parts of Ohio/Michigan - it's the sport that only the rich [white] kids play.

Maybe the exception that proves the rule, but many in lacrosse think that the best college player ever was black - even his name was Brown.
However, when I was at Hopkins (over 40 yr ago) there were few/no blacks on the lacrosse teams, either the Jays or their opponents (and places like UVA, Army, Navy had some minority enrollment even then.)

Don't forget Grant Balfour and the Australians!

For what (very little) it's worth: the Sox are the only club I know of w/ indigenous Australians in their org (Boss and Moko Moanaroa).

and not to gloss over things, there used to be a saying that you don't walk off the island. if the red sox are taking a bb/obp approach to constructing a lineup, and many latin players were taught to swing for the fences instead of trying to get on base, well you can see where i'm going with this.

Is that "no one walks off the island" trope still true?

The biggest change in MLB hitting is that you see a lot more hitters taking more pitches and really working the strike zone, waiting for a pitch they can put into the outfield seats. That means more strikeouts but also many more home runs and more walks. Hitters of that sort had been around for a long time - Mickey Mantle, Harmon Killebrew, Reggie Jackson, et al - but they're more common up and down lineups now.

Just to complete the thought, we've now got the examples of David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez, Albert Pujols, Carlos Pena, and (to a lesser extent) Jose Castillo and Hanley Ramirez as Dominicans who walk quite a bit.