Hall of Famer Lou Boudreau was captain of the basketball team at the University of Illinois. During his junior and senior years at Illinois, he played pro basketball with the Hammond All-Americans of the National Basketball League. In 1948 he was MVP, OPS+ of 164 and an, at least, very good SS.

Hack beat me to it. Lou 1948 should be #1, or at worst #2.

How about top seasons by BB players still in college? Anyone besides Ainge?

In 1948 he was MVP, OPS+ of 164 and an, at least, very good SS.

Not to mention a World Series winning manager as well. That should be enough to put him past Gibby.

10. 1963 Dick Groat - .319-6-73-85-3

The National League MVP in 1960, Groat finished second in the balloting in 1963. He was also a two-time All-American at Duke University and was named the UPI (that’s United Press International for you kids out there) National Player of the Year in 1952 after setting an NCAA single-season scoring record with 839 points…

Plus he had that disease named after him.

Since Groat was a college Player of the Year, was the only first team All-American on the list (Frank Howard was never that, despite what the author says), was an NL MVP one year and a runnerup another year, was the infield defensive anchor of two different World Champion teams, and had a solid 14 year Major League career, it's hard to see how any of those other nine listed players could possibly rank above him. He's the only one on that list other than Howard who excelled on that high a level in both sports.

Of course if this is just a list of the best ten best baseball players who ever stepped onto a basketball court, the rankings make a bit more sense, and I can see Gibson, Winfield, and Gwynn being the top three. But for a combination of baseball and basketball careers, Groat's far and away the most accomplished of the lot. All of the others mentioned either played for minor schools or weren't even the best players on their own teams.

Have you read the comments Andy?

Yeah, I suppose I should have realized that this wasn't anything more than another computer workout, rather than a way of trying to rate the best two sport athletes. Ho hum. My bad.

Actually I meant our comments. Surely Lou Boudreau gives Groat a run for the money by your criteria.

Groat is likely the greatest baseball player equally great at another sport. But probably not as dominant as Jim Brown, arguably the greatest at football and lacrosse.

Groat is likely the greatest baseball player equally great at another sport.

Bo Jackson, without the bad hip, was a All-Star in two professional sports. Stupid congenital diseases.

Thanks for the comments, especially Lou Boudreau. Once you get past the 1960s, I'm not as strong in baseball history as I would like to be. He would certainly make a fine addition to the list.

As to the poster who commented about Frank Howard, I copied this from his Wikipedia Page. "Howard was an All-American in both basketball and baseball at Ohio State, and was drafted by the Philadelphia Warriors of the NBA."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Howard_(baseball_player)

This was written for a fantasy baseball site, so the emphasis was on what these players did as baseball players. I understand people wanting it to be more, though.

Again, I appreciate people who take the time to read and comment. And I welcome more additions like Boudreau.

Actually I meant our comments. Surely Lou Boudreau gives Groat a run for the money by your criteria.

I'd still take Groat, since even given Boudreau's basketball achievements, they're hardly the equivalent of Groat's Player of the Year, plus his first and second team All-American selections.

Of course if you're going by one season rather than a career, than nothing tops Boudreau's 1948, which may have been the most accomplished all-around baseball season in history. (Maybe not, but it'd be damn close.)

Groat is likely the greatest baseball player equally great at another sport. But probably not as dominant as Jim Brown, arguably the greatest at football and lacrosse.

No question about that, if you don't restrict it to major sports.

Groat is likely the greatest baseball player equally great at another sport.

Bo Jackson, without the bad hip, was a All-Star in two professional sports. Stupid congenital diseases.

You got that right. And he still might be the best two-major sport star ever, even with the short careers in both of them.

Elvis,

Here's the page I was referring to. Howard was a second team All-American that year. Groat was first team in his senior year, and second team in his junior year. But your mistake is understandable, since whoever wrote Howard's Wiki page is probably a fan of his, and hey, an All-American's an All-American, right?

Groat is likely the greatest baseball player equally great at another sport. But probably not as dominant as Jim Brown, arguably the greatest at football and lacrosse.

No question about that, if you don't restrict it to major sports.

Well, if you don't restrict it to major sports, doesn't Jim Thorpe have to be the guy? After all, he was able to play football (college and pro), baseball, and basketball, while also winning Olympic gold medals in both the pentathlon and decathlon.

Some Canadian guy was a Thorpian polymath, but his name escapes me at the moment.

Sorry, that link doesn't work, but here it is:

First Team

Player Team

Wilt Chamberlain Kansas
Chet Forte Columbia
Rod Hundley West Virginia
Lennie Rosenbluth North Carolina
Gary Thompson Iowa State


Second Team

Player Team

Elgin Baylor Seattle
Frank Howard Ohio State
Jim Krebs Southern Methodist
Charlie Tyra Louisville
Grady Wallace South Carolina

Here's the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957_NCAA_Men's_Basketball_All-Americans

I will update the article - thanks for the info!

Well, if you don't restrict it to major sports, doesn't Jim Thorpe have to be the guy? After all, he was able to play football (college and pro), baseball, and basketball, while also winning Olympic gold medals in both the pentathlon and decathlon.

Another good point, since Thorpe's unquestionably one of the all-time football greats, and was at least good enough in baseball and basketball to play it on the big league level. In terms of overall accomplishment in all sports, you'd have to give it to Thorpe. Of course he did have the advantage of playing at a time when seasons didn't overlap as they do today. It's very difficult to play more than one sport at a high level now.

Thorpe's MLB career was overrated -- he was in the lineup more to sell tickets. A lifetime OPS+ of 99, and his only decent play was his last season (62 games at that) at age 32.

Wilt Chamberlain was also a very good track prospect in high school and excellent at volleyball. Some of his other exploits, alas, don't have Halls of Fame.

I can't read the link (blocked!) - who are the 10?

Also, what's the minimum standard for college basketball prowess here? Kenny Lofton was a good player for Arizona, but hardly a star. Mark Hendrickson was a fine college player (if overmatched in the NBA), but has never excelled in MLB action...etc...

Didn't Kenny Lofton start for a Final Four team at Arizona (at least that's what I think I remember being said about him)?

He had some pretty good years and a good career.

Lofton was a pretty good college player - very good defender, solid distributor, and not much of a scorer, but efficient from the field (IIRC). High steal/min. Stats for his final four year used to be online, but jazzyj's work seems to have disappeared fron sportsstats.com.

was brown really one of the best lacrosse players ever? i hear that sort of thing a lot, and, knowing nothing about lacrosse, i can never figure out if it's true or if it's just one of those things sportswriters like to say.

yeah, who are the players, page won't load for me either.

i was thinking about Dave Winfield, since I knew he played at U Minnesota (and was drafted in the NBA draft). looking at his wiki page, he might not have been good enough to make the cut, but i did find this neat little anecdote i'd never heard before:

During the 1994 baseball strike, which began on August 12, Winfield was traded to the Cleveland Indians at the trade deadline on July 31 for a "player to be named later." The 1994 season was cancelled two weeks later, so Winfield did not play for the Indians that year and no player was ever named in exchange. To settle the trade, Cleveland and Minnesota executives went to dinner, with the Indians picking up the tab. This makes Winfield the only player in major league history to be traded for a dinner.

I can't read the link (blocked!) - who are the 10?

10. Dick Groat
9. Tim Stoddard
8. Gene Conley
7. Ron Reed
6. Bob Veale
5. Tony Clark
4. Frank Howard
3. Tony Gwynn
2. Dave Winfield
1. Bob Gibson

What was Tim Stoddard's role in "Big"? His IMDB page lists his only movie credit as a pitcher in "Rookie of the Year".

Who are the greatest college basketball players who played MLB? I would think Ainge would make that list.

First Team

Player Team

Wilt Chamberlain Kansas
Chet Forte Columbia
Rod Hundley West Virginia
Lennie Rosenbluth North Carolina
Gary Thompson Iowa State

Chet Forte, you'll remember, went on to work as the director of "Monday Night Football" for many, many years.

Dick Groat has been the main radio announcer for Pitt basketball for the last 60 years or so.

#10 You're thinking of Lionel Conacher. Canadian Lacrosse Hall of Fame, Canadian Football Hall of Fame, Hockey Hall of Fame, Ontario wrestling champion (27-0 as a pro) and an undefeated light-heavyweight boxer ( fought an exhibition against Dempsey in 1922)

And then went into politics. Elected 3 times. Died of a heart attack running out a triple in a softball game between MPs and the press corps (age 53).

And Brown as a lacrosse player: One truly great season. Best player on an undefeated team. Tied for leading scorer in the nation while playing midfield. Also responsible for a change in the obstruction rules. I think a good way to think of his lacrosse career would be to imagine Lou Gehrig giving up baseball after his 1927 season.

Brown also scored 15 points per game in basketball and had some success in track.

Re: Brown as a lacrosse player -- not an expert but my step father swears he was truly great (through part of that was his very physical style of play). My step father is still a record holder in lacrosse from Swarthmore in that era and has talked to me about watching him. Google Orville Wright Swarthmore Lacrosse (I never knew my step father was such an athlete). Any way he claimed Brown (EDIT: Not Thorpe - sigh)played lacrosse like he played football.

Lofton was a better college hoopster than Winfield (IMO) - so add him then.

Not anywhere near good enough for this discussion as a baseball player, but I always mention Curtis Pride when this topic comes up - similar to Lofton as a point guard (not as good at O, better at D - albeit against weaker comp <William and Mary>.
Trajan Langdon never did anything in the minors, but played in the Padres system while at Duke.
Ryan Minor was drafted by the 76ers out of Oklahoma - he was a better NBA prospect (again, IMO) than pro baseball.
Chris Young! Young never played in the NBA, but had an offer from Sacramento and was an all-Ivy caliber center at Princeton.
Not sure how good Ron Reed was at college hoops, but - like young - he once made an All-Star team.

If you're gonna mention Langdon, I might as well throw Scott Burrell's name out there.

Also, you can probably add Mark Hendrickson, who actually did make it to the NBA, and was apparently a 2-time member of the Pac-10 first team.

Chet Forte, you'll remember, went on to work as the director of "Monday Night Football" for many, many years. Yes and left ABC because of, alledgely, gambling problems. He did later get involved in another major sport--"roller derby."

I will never forgive him for helping to inflict Howard Cossell on the world.

Dave Logan was also drafted in 3 sports, like Winfield.

Frankly I have no idea how good a basketball or baseball player he was

I will never forgive him for helping to inflict Howard Cossell on the world.

it was actually Roone Arledge who did that--Forte was just along for the ride

Cosell was one of Arledge's lesser sins, IMO.

i'm going to assume that since lacrosse is mostly a college sport, longevity isn't much of an issue and that brown's one great season is enough to catapult him to the top of mosts people's lists.

another question i hope doesn't insult lacrosse fans: is there enough idiosyncratic skill necessary for the position brown played (and lacrosse in general) that what brown accomplished is truly impressive, or could any athletic football player with reasonable skill dominate the sport? i ask because of the rugby v. football threads that are common on the fark message boards - football fans tend to insist that even average running backs would be among the best rugby players immediately.

Burrell: Well, Langdon actually played pro baseball. But, yes, you should.
Hendrickson (who I did mention @ 21) was quite good in college - check out that 63% from the field as a junior, but was overmatched athletically at the next level.

Old primer had a post from me with stats on loads of guys like this - alas, no more.

it was actually Roone Arledge who did that--Forte was just along for the ride

Yeah I know but Forte was close enough to Howard to drive a stake through where his heart should have been.

Hendrickson (who I did mention @ 21) was quite good in college - check out that 63% from the field as a junior, but was overmatched athletically at the next level.

Yeah, I completely missed your earlier mention of him. Sorry about that.

Doug Flynn played on that final 4 Kentucky team in 75

his baseball career? less said the better

EDIT: Ainge lifetime: 220/264/269

Flynn 238/266/294

Burrell played in the minors, DK. He was drafted twice and the second time he pitched in Toronto's system.

Leonard "Butch" Levy was an All-Big 10 lineman for the undefeated national champion Minnesota Gophers football team in 1940-41; in 1941, he joined the school's wrestling team and won the NCAA heavyweight title. Levy had further championships in both football and wrestling.

I was at Johns Hopkins in the mid-1960s (only flunk out of the better schools), about ten years after Brown finished at Syracuse. The Hopkins coaching staff were still in awe at his play - few could run with him and nobody could take the ball away. Given JHU's lacrosse history, I think that commentary has considerable weight.

is there enough idiosyncratic skill necessary for the position brown played (and lacrosse in general) that what brown accomplished is truly impressive

Don't know what the state of the game was in the late 50s, but I doubt it's too different than it is today. There are sport specific skills. Picking up the ball, passing, catching, retaining possession through contact and shooting. Like a lot of sports, the basics aren't too tough, but getting really good at them is not easy.

It's not that hard to learn to pick up the ball. Doing it at speed with other people trying to disrupt you -- not so easy.

Burrell: Duh, my bad GGC - thanks!

That was Mike Flynn who played basketball for Kentucky (he also played in the NBA/ABA for 3 seasons). Doug Flynn (also a UK man) was 4 inches shorter and, uh, not the hoopster guy. Junior Braddy did play pro baseball and hooped with the Wildcats, but he never advanced far in the minors + was a bench player in college.

Dell Curry (who was a decent baseball prospect) and Muggsy Bogues (who wasn't) both played for the Charlotte [EDIT: Gastonia] minor league team in a publicity stunt, but that's way far afield now... IIRC, LaBradford Smith could hit 95 MPH with his fastball, but never seriously considered baseball as a career.

EDIT: Here's a link to the Bullpen. Larry Doby played in the ABL? Forgot Steve Hamilton.

Since Groat was a college Player of the Year, was the only first team All-American on the list (Frank Howard was never that, despite what the author says), was an NL MVP one year and a runnerup another year, was the infield defensive anchor of two different World Champion teams, and had a solid 14 year Major League career, it's hard to see how any of those other nine listed players could possibly rank above him. He's the only one on that list other than Howard who excelled on that high a level in both sports.

Kirk Gibson was a first-team All-American in football at Michigan State and an MLB MVP.

List was specific to baseball/basketball.

Another guy who never made in baseball: Brett Roberts was a stud basketball player at Morehead State (led the nation in scoring) and was a 2nd round pick of the Kings but did not (to my knowledge) pursue a pro career in that sport. He spent 6 years in the Twins org as a pitcher, topping out at AAA.

Wieters played a pickup game once, right?

It's a good thing the writer wrote the piece now, because in ten years the list will look pretty boring.

And Brown as a lacrosse player: One truly great season. Best player on an undefeated team. Tied for leading scorer in the nation while playing midfield. Also responsible for a change in the obstruction rules. I think a good way to think of his lacrosse career would be to imagine Lou Gehrig giving up baseball after his 1927 season.

I went to Syracuse in the late 1980s (the era of the Gait brothers and Tom Marachek) and Jim Brown was still the standard against which all lacrosse players were measured -- those who saw him felt he was much better at lacrosse than he was at football.. arguably better than anybody was at any sport.

Also, that Jordan guy.

Jackie Robinson led the Pac-10 (then the Pac-6) in scoring twice. He also had three or four MLB seasons which were better than any of the 10 on this list.

Bob Veale did not start a game in 1971.

And Brown as a lacrosse player

The thought of Jim Brown running at me with a stick is truly terrifying.

You don't need to play lacrosse for that. You need only be female.

OK--I pull this out when necessary:

Played in both World Series & Rose Bowl? (there are 2)

hint--J Robinson is NOT one of the answers

Jackie Jensen & Frank Howard?

(Robinson, of course, played in the Rose Bowl a whole bunch, just not in the Rose Bowl GAME.)

Jensen's is one

Hondo not

(Robinson, of course, played in the Rose Bowl a whole bunch, just not in the Rose Bowl GAME.)

you got me there

EDIT: the other guy is also the half answer to ANOTHER trivia question

(which has to be a record for someone this obscure)

Don Buford is one.

Buford played scatback for USC--but was never in the Rose Bowl

Ah, Rick Leach. Or maybe Barry Larkin

neither

MUCH more obscure

Stanford

then Dodgers

Carroll Hardy?

c'mon PDJ give!

nope

good guess tho--he did play FB but at colorado--even played in the NFL

this guy is of the same vintage (i.e. the fiddies)

Chuck Essegian

also one of 2 players to hit 2 pinch hit homers in one world series

the other being...?

Red Sox fans?

That one I knew...

Damn. Rick Leach left the Tigers before the 1984 season. Rat bastard!!

some people include Galen Cisco--who played for Ohio St in the Rose bowl and was on the Bosox roster in the 67 series

but he didn't pitch in the series

also one of 2 players to hit 2 pinch hit homers in one world series

the other being...?

Red Sox Yankee fans?

Boinie Carbo.

like the spelling

And who were the "Jones brothers" who will always be associated with shoe polish, and why?

Cleon and and and....


EDIT: and that guy from the Braves in 57--ummm Nip Jones?

Not yet mentioned (I don't think):

Duquesne's Ricketts brothers. Tremendous (like All-American) college basketball players but only cups of coffee in the majors. Dave did have a long career as a major league coach.

Also, for college football/major league baseball: Al Martin of course (and, yes, I'm kidding).

Cleon and and and....


EDIT: and that guy from the Braves in 57--ummm Nip Jones?

Nippy. But close enough. Nippy's was a key play in deciding one of the most thrilling World Series games ever, and in fact may have been the turning point of the entire Series.

Vic Janowicz.

Nippy. But close enough. Nippy's was a key play in deciding one of the most thrilling World Series games ever, and in fact may have been the turning point of the entire Series.

Nippy also was a key figure in a play that led to a change in the rules.

His apparent home run for the Cardinals was wiped out because the umpire had called a balk on the pitch. It probably cost St. Louis the game and possibly the 1949 pennant, as the Cardinals finished the season one game behind Brooklyn.

The rule -- now Rule 8:05(m) -- was subsequently rewritten to wipe out the balk and let the play stand if the batter reaches base and all runners safely move up at least one base.

Oh yeah, well who was the player who was not only on a Rose Bowl-winning football team, but hosted a show on the E! Network?

Chelsea Lately played football??!!

Although annoying, Deion Sanders was an amazing track athlete, one of the best defensive backs of all time, and a reasonable center fielder (I mean the guy OPS+'d 130 in over 300 at bats with 14 triples). Brian Jordan didn't have nearly the football career compared to Sanders' baseball career and didn't have nearly the baseball career compared to Sanders' football career.

But yeah, Bo Jackson is pretty much the modern day freak standard for dual sport athletes. He was one of the most exciting running backs I've ever seen and his athleticism was mindboggling on the baseball field.

this is an easy one: played in a Rose Bowl, a Grey Cup, and a Super Bowl