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Monday, January 25, 2010

TSN: GMs rank the best in the game

And, of course…the Most overrated player.

The choices: Alfonso Soriano, LF, Cubs; Jason Varitek, C, Red Sox

Who’s more overrated of the top two vote-getters? SN went to three major league scouts to break the tie.

N.L. scout: “It’s Soriano because Varitek isn’t overrated. Varitek is strictly on a steep decline in his career because of physical reasons. Soriano’s skills, well, he should not have declined as quickly as he did. Varitek has declined because of injuries; Soriano has declined for other reasons.”

A.L. scout: “Varitek plays a premium position, so he’s going to always have a little more value to his club because of Soriano’s defensive liabilities. There’s a shortage of talent at the catcher’s position, which you see with the older players out there getting jobs. Soriano is offensive and a middle-of-the-order bat, but really is a defensive liability out in the field. Of those two, Soriano would be my choice.”

N.L. scout: “Overrated? I wouldn’t say either one of them is. Soriano has just had chronic hamstring and other injury issues, but you talk about unbelievable bat speed and tools. His defensive ability has been lacking the past few years. Varitek knows how to call a game, but he’s just lost a little bat speed. He’s caught a lot of games.”

Repoz Posted: January 25, 2010 at 12:02 PM | 30 comment(s) | Login to Bookmark
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1. flournoy Posted: January 25, 2010 at 12:42 PM (#3445586)

Why would the reasons for the decline of either have anything to do with whether they are overrated or not? That doesn't make any sense.

2. HGM Posted: January 25, 2010 at 12:44 PM (#3445587)

What is that first NL scout trying to imply regarding the "other reasons" for Soriano declining, if not for his injuries?

3. Dale Sams Posted: January 25, 2010 at 02:03 PM (#3445600)

Soriano has declined for other reasons.”

Mummy's curse?
Mini black holes in his cleats?
Kryptonite?

I dunno.

4. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 25, 2010 at 02:04 PM (#3445601)

Best leader
The choice: DEREK JETER, SS, Yankees

THE BALLOT BOX
Derek Jeter, SS, Yankees: 13 votes
Torii Hunter, CF, Angels: 3
Albert Pujols, 1B, Cardinals: 3
Chase Utley, 2B Phillies: 1 1/2
Victor Martinez, C, Red Sox: 1
Roy Halladay, SP, Phillies: 1/2

It's a landslide!

5. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 25, 2010 at 02:05 PM (#3445603)

The "most overrated" ballot is sort of interesting, though it mostly gets at how amorphous a notion "overrated" is, which is among the more boring themes of sports commentary.

THE BALLOT BOX
Alfonso Soriano, LF, Cubs: 3 votes
Jason Varitek, C, Red Sox: 3
David Ortiz, DH, Red Sox: 2
Francisco Rodriguez, RP, Mets: 2
Erik Bedard, SP, free agent: 1
Milton Bradley, LF, Mariners: 1
A.J. Burnett, SP, Yankees: 1
Jacoby Ellsbury, LF, Red Sox: 1
Vladimir Guerrero, DH, Rangers: 1
Cristian Guzman, SS/2B, Nationals: 1
Matt Holliday, LF, Cardinals: 1
Manny Ramirez, LF, Dodgers: 1
Freddy Sanchez, 2B, Giants: 1
Miguel Tejada, SS, Orioles: 1
Vernon Wells, CF, Blue Jays: 1
Carlos Zambrano, SP, Cubs: 1

6. Paul has a cat named Manny Posted: January 25, 2010 at 02:11 PM (#3445604)

Was the writer unaware that the Red Sox seemed to spend much of the last offseason trying to find someone, ANYone to catch whose name wasn't "Jason Varitek," and then traded midseason for his replacement?

Varitek has definitely been prone to being overrated (Intangibles! Game calling!) But the man's a backup catcher who will make $3 million in 2010, likely his last as a player. Alfonso Soriano made $17 million last year.

I guess it depends on your opinion of "overrated" (by whom? by what measure?) but Fangraphs says Varitek was actually worth his salary last season, while Soriano should have been paying the Cubs $3.3 million to suck for them.

Now I've defended Jason Varitek. Curse you, Sporting News!

7. Paul has a cat named Manny Posted: January 25, 2010 at 02:14 PM (#3445605)

The "most overrated" ballot is sort of interesting

Apparently "most overrated" means "used to be good but now is bad for whatever reason" and has little to do with whether they are viewed as better than they really are. Of the four top votegetters, does anyone -- fan or writer or opponent -- really think Varitek, Soriano or Ortiz are feared hitters anymore?

8. JPWF13

Posted: January 25, 2010 at 04:18 PM (#3445723)

Apparently "most overrated" means "used to be good but now is bad for whatever reason"

I've noticed that, personally I have always defined overrated as meaning, "not as good as is commonly believed". Sori and Tek seem to be pretty fairy rated NOW, in their primes they were both definitely overrated imho.

However, players in decline do seem to be overrated on general- because cliff dives aside, the MSM seems to be reluctant to "downgrade" people.

9. TomH Posted: January 25, 2010 at 05:14 PM (#3445796)

category of "best OF arm AND best leadoff hitter"?? Were we TRYING to figure out a category just so Suzuki could get some votes? If I were attempting to justify why WadeBoggs was one of the greatest of all time, could I create a survey of 'best onbase skills who played 3B since 1905? Who made up this survey, anyway???

10. flournoy Posted: January 25, 2010 at 05:21 PM (#3445810)

Those were two separate categories, they just grouped them together so they only had to write about Suzuki once.

THE BALLOT BOX (outfield arm)
Ichiro Suzuki, RF, Mariners: 13 votes
Jeff Francoeur, RF, Mets: 4 1/2
Carlos Gonzalez, LF, Rockies: 1 1/2
Jose Guillen, RF, Royals: 1
Josh Hamilton, CF, Rangers: 1
Hunter Pence, RF, Astros: 1

THE BALLOT BOX (leadoff hitter)
Ichiro Suzuki, RF, Mariners: 11 votes
Derek Jeter, SS, Yankees: 4
Chone Figgins, 3B, Mariners: 3
Grady Sizemore, CF, Indians: 3
Brian Roberts, 2B, Orioles: 1

11. Petooter: 11'6" 355 lbs of scrap and grit Posted: January 25, 2010 at 05:21 PM (#3445811)

Best strategist

The choice: Tony La Russa, Cardinals

THE BALLOT BOX
Tony La Russa, Cardinals 14 votes
Mike Scioscia, Angels 5
Bruce Bochy, Padres 1
Bobby Cox, Braves 1
Joe Maddon, Rays 1

Nice.

12. bond1 Posted: January 25, 2010 at 05:43 PM (#3445830)

Imagine putting Ichiro in the 3 hole. Pitchers would gladly put runners on base ahead of him to get the force out. You can't throw out Ichiro but you can get the lead runner at 2nd.

13. Nasty Nate Posted: January 25, 2010 at 05:54 PM (#3445844)

Was the writer unaware that the Red Sox seemed to spend much of the last offseason trying to find someone, ANYone to catch whose name wasn't "Jason Varitek," and then traded midseason for his replacement?

It wasn't the writer's opinion about 'Tek, he was just the messenger.

14. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: January 25, 2010 at 06:50 PM (#3445922)

Both "overrated" and "underrated" mean "Everybody is wrong about this guy except me."

15. TomH Posted: January 25, 2010 at 07:42 PM (#3445989)

mea culpa on the dual votes for OF arm and leadoff hitter; thanks for the clarification.

so instead maybe I'll rant on the leadoff hitter vote; it seems like the guys who decided Luis Aparicio was a great leadoff hitter years ago are the smae ones voting here. Do we not have any great leadoff hitters in the majors?

Ichiro plays 162 games many years. And has not finished in the top 6 in runs scored in a long time. And of course he does not drive in many. Last year he scored a whopping 88 runs. So the reason he's the best leadoff hitter is... ?

16. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: January 25, 2010 at 07:50 PM (#3445998)

Suzuki is the most underrated player in post 15.

17. Dan Szymborski

Posted: January 25, 2010 at 07:50 PM (#3446000)

Bruce Bochy, Padres 1

That's the problem with you statheads. You may stare at an encyclopedia with text that claims Bochy hasn't managed the Padres since 2006, but my eyes tell me that Bruce Bochy still is the manager in San Diego

OR

Bruce Bochy intentionally uses Eugenio Velez as the leadoff hitter, Bengie Molina as a cleanup hitter, and Buster Posey as bench material. One could say he does a great job improving 4 teams when most managers improve only 1. Given that the Padres have the most problematic financial situation, the boost that Bochy gives to the NL West teams is more beneficial to the Padres than any of the other teams.

18. Crispix Attacks Posted: January 25, 2010 at 07:51 PM (#3446002)

Ichiro sounds like a good choice for most overrated player. That's what this article is about, right?

19. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 25, 2010 at 07:52 PM (#3446007)

Ichiro plays 162 games many years. And has not finished in the top 6 in runs scored in a long time. And of course he does not drive in many. Last year he scored a whopping 88 runs. So the reason he's the best leadoff hitter is... ?

The same reason that Joe Carter's massive RBI totals didn't make him one of the best sluggers in the game - these numbers are heavily context-dependent. Ichiro plays in a pitcher's park and his teammates have not been above average at run scoring since 2003.

The years when Seattle has put average or above average offenses on the field during Ichiro's career were 2001, 2002, 2003, and 2007. He finished 2nd, 9th, 7th, and 8th in runs scored those years. ("Top 6" seems a less arbitrary choice of endpoint after going through the data, though no more meaningful.)

EDIT: I'd take Sizemore, if healthy, over Ichiro as my leadoff hitter. And if you classify Jeter as a leadoff hitter, he's better too. But Ichiro's damn good.

20. Dan Szymborski

Posted: January 25, 2010 at 07:54 PM (#3446012)

Well, I guess it's better than SI's Players Poll about a decade ago that had all the Overrated Players as black or hispanic, all the Underrated Players as white, and a sizable number of players that believed Babe Ruth was the Greatest Living Player.

21. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: January 25, 2010 at 08:00 PM (#3446016)

Actually, white players do tend to be underrated, because most of them are very scrappy. A lot of coloreds are not as good as their numbers appear because they lollygag.

Babe Ruth was the greatest living player, when he was alive.

22. Tom Nawrocki Posted: January 25, 2010 at 08:04 PM (#3446018)

Bruce Bochy intentionally uses Eugenio Velez as the leadoff hitter, Bengie Molina as a cleanup hitter, and Buster Posey as bench material.

You're dinging a manager for using a 22-year-old kid who played most of the season in A ball as a bench player during his September callup? And for using the regular with the second-best slugging percentage on the team as a cleanup man? Tough crowd.

23. JPWF13

Posted: January 25, 2010 at 08:11 PM (#3446028)

Ichiro plays 162 games many years. And has not finished in the top 6 in runs scored in a long time. And of course he does not drive in many. Last year he scored a whopping 88 runs. So the reason he's the best leadoff hitter is... ?

1: He gets on base
2: He's fast and runs the bases well
3: The failure to score runs is not all his, case in point, in 2003 he reached base 254 times (246 accounting for CS), got himself in scoring positing 84 times, and scored 111 runs. In 2004 he reached base 315 times (304 accounting for CS), got himself in scoring position 73 times, and scored just 101 runs
Last year he scored less runs than in 2008, despite getting on base/ in scoring position at a higher rate than 2008...

Ichiro is not a HR hitter, he is dependent on those batting behind him to drive him in, and Seattle has some pretty woeful offenses of late.

That said he is overrated a tad.

24. Dale Sams Posted: January 25, 2010 at 08:36 PM (#3446058)

Actually, white players do tend to be underrated, because most of them are very scrappy. A lot of coloreds are not as good as their numbers appear because they lollygag.

Babe Ruth was the greatest living player, when he was alive.

Edison will be gratified to know his time machine worked. When do you go back?

25. tl; dr (Voxter)

Posted: January 25, 2010 at 08:40 PM (#3446064)

chiro plays 162 games many years.

You don't often see a player's ability to stay on the field as a point against him these days.

26. Andrew Edwards Posted: January 25, 2010 at 08:53 PM (#3446074)

I always thought that this approach was the most interesting to the "over-rated / under-rated" discussion:

http://vixi.livejournal.com/198971.html

EDIT: Sorry for the livejournal link but the original seems to be gone - this is just some guy who copied and pasted it onto his blog

27. PreservedFish Posted: January 25, 2010 at 09:19 PM (#3446100)

#26, that discussion/joke has come up here before: "Who is the most accurately rated player in the majors?"

I think that web-based baseball fans have gotten tired of the underrated/overrated thing, you used to see it more often. Some players (like Brian Giles) the subject of "Who is underrated?" articles with absurd frequency.

28. sunnyday2 Posted: January 25, 2010 at 09:23 PM (#3446102)

Most Overrated: TSN

29. Mike Green Posted: January 25, 2010 at 09:31 PM (#3446116)

TSN sure goes in for retro. The tone and substance of that article would have fit nicely into a 1972 magazine with a few name changes. Same bat time, same bat channel.

30. Leroy Kincaid Posted: January 25, 2010 at 11:09 PM (#3446222)

Ichiro is not a HR hitter

By choice!

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